King Charles and Queen Camilla

[Tim Yates]

Yes dear, I know what happened. I was there. It has since been admitted by all concerned that there is no LEGAL way that Camilla can become Princess Consort. When the Queen dies, Charles automatically becomes "King Charles" and Camilla automatically becomes "Queen Camilla". Parliament would then have to pass an act to take that title away from her, something that just won't happen. You can quote all the Clarence House announcements you like - the Princess Consort thing was intended to shut the Diana loons up.

Yes, okay... You are right... I read the article:

Titles, Styles and Position

The Duchess of Cornwall legally holds the title and technical rank of Princess of Wales as she is the consort and wife of the Prince of Wales, but she does not, by choice, style herself as such, so although the title exists and is held by her it is never used nor referred to.
Clarence House announced at the couple's engagement that she wished to use the style of her future husband's subsidiary title, Duke of Cornwall, rather than Princess of Wales, except in Scotland.
In Scotland, where Prince Charles is usually referred to as the The Prince Charles, Duke of Rothesay, she is referred to as the Duchess of Rothesay.
Queen Elizabeth II has placed her as the fourth highest-ranking female royal in the United Kingdom Order of Precedence in 2005 (after herself, Anne, Princess Royal and Princess Alexandra, The Honourable Lady Ogilvy) rather than second (as would normally befit a consort to the heir) to strengthen the notion of being a royal duchess rather than a princess.
Her degree of acceptance within the Royal Family was shown in the decision to allow her wear the tiara of the late Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother.[11]
Camilla's current name, previous names, and styles used of titles acquired upon her marriage into the Royal Family in chronological order are as follows:

• Miss Camilla Rosemary Shand (until 1973)
• Mrs. Andrew Parker Bowles (1973-1995)
• Mrs. Camilla Parker Bowles (1995-2005)
• Her Royal Highness The Duchess of Cornwall (used everywhere but Scotland) (2005 - )
• Her Royal Highness The Duchess of Rothesay (used only in Scotland) (2005 - )

Camilla's full titles (but not styles) after her marriage are: Her Royal Highness The Princess of Wales and Countess of Chester, Duchess of Cornwall, Duchess of Rothesay, Countess of Carrick, Baroness Renfrew, Lady of the Isles, Princess of Scotland
Clarence House has indicated that when Charles accedes the throne it is intended that she will use the title HRH, The Princess Consort, although, as with the example of the Princess of Wales, technically as the wife of a king, Camilla would be Queen.
However, one year after her wedding, polls still showed opposition to the prospect of a Queen Camilla, with only 38% supporting the idea. Meanwhile, Prince Charles is currently viewed favourably by the public, 52% believing he will be a good King.[12].

 

[Jo of Palatine]

When The Prince of Wales accedes to the throne, she will be known as HRH The Princess Consort.
http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/page3974.asp

Warren, pelase, leave this post here if possible as I come back on topic immediately.

First to your post, Tim: I guess we are all aware here that these informations have been posted to different Royal-owned websites.

What members here have discussed int he thread our admin Warren pointed to is the fact that the Britsih law at the moment does not allow for morganatic marriages and clearly states that the wife of the king is the queen.

Camilla is Charles' wife, so when he becomes king she will be queen. This is a fact neither of the mentioned websites questions. They don't say that "she will be" the princess consort" but they state she "will be known as the princess consort". That's a huge difference!

Thus far Britain has no experience with a queen insisting on being called a princess. Maybe she will insist, maybe she won't. Maybe people will follow, maybe people won't. But fact is fact: the wife of the king is the queen. Full stop. For her to become a mere "princess consort" instead of a "queen consort" would mean to change the law - which means opening a can of worms - something the RF surely won't want to do.

Back on topic: if the Duke outlived the queen, he will still be The Duke of Edinburgh - maybe he even marries a second time... Wonder what Charles will do then.... Award the second wife the title of HRH?

But: I think it's important to check regularily if these sentences about the future name of Camilla are still in place - as IMHO they will be removed the very moment prince Charles and the other members of the RF get alarmed about a frailty in the health of Her Majesty. Because it would be more than mortifying if this sentence is still to be found there when the succession situation arrives... I write this believing that Charles loves Camilla and want her to be his queen as any man wants his wife to share his position in life if he loves her and is proud of her.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

When The Prince of Wales accedes to the throne, she will be known as HRH The Princess Consort.
http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/page3974.asp

Tim - if the internet had already existed in the days of queen Mary, especially in 1910 when Edward VII. died, they could have written on their website that "When The Prince of Wales accedes to the throne, she (in this case the new queen Mary) will be known as "This old hag from Suebia". (For those who don't know it, the "Teck" is a prominent hill right in front and belonging to the Suebian Alb - a series of mountains and hills - in Wuerttemberg, Germany. The Tecks were a minor branch of the Royal House of Wuerttemberg.)

So what? Mary of Teck would still have been the queen!

 

[Sister Morphine]

While legally she will be Queen Camilla, she'll bow to public pressure and be referred to as "The Princess Consort". I think in some peoples' minds [and correct me if I'm wrong], there's a slight dislike for her for breaking up Charles and Diana's marriage and for her to use the title that was supposed to be Diana's.....some people may not go for that. Now, this is just purely speculation. However, I can think of no other reason but that for why she'd be referred to as something other than the Queen.

I don't think it will stop other foreign dignitaries from saying "Your Majesty" when they greet her, though.

 

[BeatrixFan]

She won't bow to public pressure because there isn't any. Britain is not living in the past and we won't change over 1000 years of tradition for one woman. Camilla WILL be Queen, she will be "Her Majesty" and I shall take great pride in making sure the whole world knows it.

 

[Sister Morphine]

She won't bow to public pressure because there isn't any. Britain is not living in the past and we won't change over 1000 years of tradition for one woman. Camilla WILL be Queen, she will be "Her Majesty" and I shall take great pride in making sure the whole world knows it.

Around the time of her and Charles' marriage, I had heard from several different people that when he becomes King, she'll go by the title The Princess Consort because of lingering resentment over her involvement in Charles and Diana's divorce.

I never said those people were right, I never said that I was right. I said it was speculation and it could be wrong.

I'm not British, so I'm only going by what I've been told from other people who are. They very well might be full of crap.

 

[BeatrixFan]

I'm not putting you down. You said in your original post, "She WILL bow to public pressure" as if it was a sure fire fact. And it isn't. And she won't. Simple.

 

[Sister Morphine]

I'm not putting you down. You said in your original post, "She WILL bow to public pressure" as if it was a sure fire fact. And it isn't. And she won't. Simple.

And that was my own opinion based on what I had been told by other people I knew [who are Brits] around the time of their marriage.

As I stated in my previous post, those people could be utterly full of it.

 

[Zonk]

Around the time of her and Charles' marriage, I had heard from several different people that when he becomes King, she'll go by the title The Princess Consort because of lingering resentment over her involvement in Charles and Diana's divorce.

I never said those people were right, I never said that I was right. I said it was speculation and it could be wrong.

Do you take great delight in putting other people and their opinions down? I'm not British, so I'm only going by what I've been told from other people who are.

Not to speak on BeatrixFan's behalf (because he does it so well himself )

I think some of the frustration is due to the fact that this subject and different resolutions and opinions have been discussed ad nauseaum.

While we welcome new members to the Forum and we are excited to get new input...sometimes...its best to read some of the previous pages of a thread before making a comment. Your comment, while appreciated as already been discussed before.

 

[Sister Morphine]

Not to speak on BeatrixFan's behalf (because he does it so well himself )

I think some of the frustration is due to the fact that this subject and different resolutions and opinions have been discussed ad nauseaum.

While we welcome new members to the Forum and we are excited to get new input...sometimes...its best to read some of the previous pages of a thread before making a comment. Your comment, while appreciated as already been discussed before.

I wasn't aware that I had to read through tons of pages first before I was allowed to post my opinion.

My apologies for inconveniencing you.

 

[BeatrixFan]

That really is it so I apologise for snapping Sister Morphine. It just seems to be a conversation that rolls around every week and the same old things are said and it gets frustrating. Not your fault of course.

 

[Sister Morphine]

That really is it so I apologise for snapping Sister Morphine. It just seems to be a conversation that rolls around every week and the same old things are said and it gets frustrating. Not your fault of course.

It's not a problem.

 

[Avalon]

That's so nice the mattered was settled in such a peaceful way!

The point Zonk1189 was trying to make, Sister Morphine, was not that you have to read through tons of pages before you actually post. It would be hardly possible to read all the pages in all treads you want to post in.

But sometimes it is really helpful to look back in the previous discussions just to know whether the topic you want to post about, was discussed or not.
In this case, hundreds of posts (and that's not exaggeration) were dedicated to the topic whether Camilla will be known as Queen or Princess Consort.

Sometimes different members would just post the announcement-like post that Camilla will be Princess Consort. After that a few pages were wasted on explaining that it can't be done without Parliament Legislation.

Therefore you might understand the exasperation of the thread regulars at reading another post concerning Camilla's supposed Princess Consort title.

And since not everyone was as thoughtful and tactful as you (thank you for that!), we had quite a few arguments on the topic.

 

[Sister Morphine]

That's so nice the matter was settled in such a peaceful way!

The point Zonk1189 was trying to make, Sister Morphine, was not that you have to read through tons of pages before you actually post. It would be hardly possible to read all the pages in all treads you want to post in.

But sometimes it is really helpful to look back in the previous discussions just to know whether the topic you want to post about, was discussed or not.
In this case, hundreds of posts (and that's not exaggeration) were dedicated to the topic whether Camilla will be known as Queen or Princess Consort.

Sometimes different members would just post the announcement-like post that Camilla will be Princess Consort. After that a few pages were wasted on explaining that it can't be done without Parliament Legislation.

Therefore you might understand the exasperation of the thread regulars at reading another post concerning Camilla's supposed Princess Consort title.

And since not everyone was as thoughtful and tactful as you (thank you for that!), we had quite a few arguments on the topic.

Well the last thing I wanted to do was start an argument, and I'm glad I didn't. I might re-read the thread later just to see everyone's viewpoints. That way if the issue comes up again, I'll know what to avoid.

 

[Madame Royale]

It has already been announced by Buck House that she will be known as HRH the Princess Consort, and if everybody calls her that, then in reality she'll be that. Whatever legally she might be will be of the least consequence.

If legislation is required to say she will be known as PC, although still legally Q, it will happen.

Agreed. To take on the position of Queen but be known as Princess Consort is no different to her current form of address. Legally, as we all know, she is Princess of Wales but is known as the Duchess of Cornwall.

Personally, not an issue for me. It has been intended that that is the style and title Camilla shall publically use and until the day whereas Parliament, Buckingham Palace or Clarence House state differently, that is what I'm going with and rightly so I think. Who am I, or anyone, to stipulate otherwise. None of us are in a position to say it wont happen and thats the truth of it.

If a legislation can be passed then it will, and if It can't, then it wont but I will be left scratching my head wondering my on earth the royal family were so ill advised on the matter.

She won't bow to public pressure because there isn't any. Britain is not living in the past and we won't change over 1000 years of tradition for one woman. Camilla WILL be Queen, she will be "Her Majesty" and I shall take great pride in making sure the whole world knows it.

Whilst finding you quite humerous on the whole BeatrixFan, you must take into consideration the possibilities of Camilla actually being known as HRH the Princess Consort just the same as I must take into consideration the likeliness of her becoming HM the Queen.

Camilla may not be known as Queen, she may not be Her Majesty and I should hope that you would respect the office of Princess Consort as much as you would if she were Queen. It is afterall your beloved Camilla, you royal penpal you

I think it a real defining title to be honest. Something unique for a unique woman.

 

[BeatrixFan]

To me Camilla will never be Princess Consort just as now to me she is Princess of Wales. To title her as Princess Consort would be an insult to her, to history and the Crown. When Charles becomes King - at that very moment, immediately, Camilla becomes Queen. She will be my Queen and I'll be damned if I ever call her anything less than that. Any such title will be forced on her by liberal and ignorant MPs, not the British people. I certainly won't respect the office of Princess Consort because to me, it simply won't exist. She will be my Queen. Her Majesty. And that is that.

 

[Madame Royale]

Therefore you might understand the exasperation of the thread regulars at reading another post concerning Camilla's supposed Princess Consort title.

As opposed to the Queen title?

Again, we know what she shall be legally but it is what she shall be known officially that shall define her place and I, like many of you, are very interested to see how it all turns out.

 

[Madame Royale]

To me Camilla will never be Princess Consort just as now to me she is Princess of Wales. To title her as Princess Consort would be an insult to her, to history and the Crown. When Charles becomes King - at that very moment, immediately, Camilla becomes Queen. She will be my Queen and I'll be damned if I ever call her anything less than that. Any such title will be forced on her by liberal and ignorant MPs, not the British people. I certainly won't respect the office of Princess Consort because to me, it simply won't exist. She will be my Queen. Her Majesty. And that is that.

An insult? I really dont see how you can say that but fair enough.

And as for the rest, if thats your prerogative (not respecting the suggested office) then thats (to me) a shame but again, you will of course do what you feel strongly about just as I shall welcome the title Princess Consort

 

[BeatrixFan]

Why welcome something that is just a slap in the face to Camilla and a total insult to history? It is an insult. It basically says to the memory of all our past Monarchs, 'This is what you worked for and we're going to change it for a truly pathetic reason'. You really want that to happen?

 

[Sister Morphine]

This may be a stupid question, and if it is....feel free to let me know. I'm also not sure where this would best be suited, so maybe someone can move it to an appropriate venue. I also apologize if this has been asked in advance.


Why can't the husband of a Queen Regnant be called the "King Consort" if the wife of a King Regnant is called the "Queen Consort? When I see King, I think of a man holding a title by birthright, much like Charles will. When I see King Consort, I see a man who married a Queen Regnant. The word "consort" would indicate that he is the husband of a Queen.

Is there some reason why there aren't equal titles for men and women when it comes to this? I think in a 21st Century world, there should a little equality when it comes to titles.

 

[BeatrixFan]

Basically, the title of "King" conveys higher power. It would seem as if the King had a higher station than the Queen who was reigning and that would be misleading. A Prince Consort has the same rank and precedence as a King Consort would have so it's a matter of words really. Also, the "Consort" would probably be dropped and it would cause confusion so the present way seems to work the whole world over.

 

[Sister Morphine]

Basically, the title of "King" conveys higher power. It would seem as if the King had a higher station than the Queen who was reigning and that would be misleading. A Prince Consort has the same rank and precedence as a King Consort would have so it's a matter of words really. Also, the "Consort" would probably be dropped and it would cause confusion so the present way seems to work the whole world over.

Alright, thank you.

 

[Madame Royale]

Why welcome something that is just a slap in the face to Camilla and a total insult to history? It is an insult. It basically says to the memory of all our past Monarchs, 'This is what you worked for and we're going to change it for a truly pathetic reason'. You really want that to happen?

I welcome it because I find it appropriate and fitting for the Duchess. What you perceive to be a slap in the face and as a dishonour to english history, I see as something truly unique and defining within and for the British establishment.

To you and many others it will be an insult and I am not disputing the way you should or should not feel but for many others, like myself, it will not be an insult and I would like to think you could respect the rights of those who support the use of such a title just as I would support those who are in favour of the Duchess being officially known as Queen. Again, difference of opinion is what makes this board great.

I dont believe it "sends" that message to our past sovereigns. Differen times, and it is within those times that various things occur and shape the circusmtances people find themselves in.

So, do I really want what to happen? You see, the way you perceive it is not the way I perceive it so the question you put to me is quite negated.

 

[BeatrixFan]

I don't see it as unique at all. If she wants a unique title, why can't they give her a higher title with something else added? Why demote her? Why must she be constantly put down and demoted?

 

[Madame Royale]

I don't see it as unique at all. If she wants a unique title, why can't they give her a higher title with something else added? Why demote her? Why must she be constantly put down and demoted?

We could be here all day.lol. and I really have to move my behind

Something else added to equal the rank of a Queen Consort, sure, I would support that if those involved thought it appropriate

 

[BeatrixFan]

Or we could just accept that she'll be Queen Consort instead of finding new pointless euphemisms.

 

[Anna_R]

In the absence of the British Mods I would like to ask to please cool off and play nice!

Personal comments should go by PM and not publicly at the board.

Thank you,
Anna_R
Royal Forums Moderator

 

[Elspeth]

What I am trying to point out is that Charles' attitude towards religion, and the fact of his marriage to a woman he could not marry in a C of E ceremony, has made it extremely probable that there will be legislation disestablishing the monarch as head of the C of E.

The legislation would have to disestablish the Church altogether, as far as I know. As long as the CofE is the Established Church and the monarch is Head of State, that creates a connection.

 

[Elspeth]

In the absence of the British Mods I would like to ask to please cool off and play nice!

Personal comments should go by PM and not publicly at the board.

Thank you,
Anna_R
Royal Forums Moderator

Thank you, Anna. One of the British mods is now in the building and wondering why in the world so many of our threads are sounding so bad-tempered this evening. Would everybody please go and have a cup of tea, take a deep breath, and stop all this sniping?

 

[Frothy]

Avalon,

Sometimes different members would just post the announcement-like post that Camilla will be Princess Consort. After that a few pages were wasted on explaining that it can't be done without Parliament Legislation.

Therefore you might understand the exasperation of the thread regulars at reading another post concerning Camilla's supposed Princess Consort title.

Unless I am mistaken, the only legislation that would be required would be for the Princess Consort not to be queen.

For her to legally be Queen but to be known as Princess Consort would not require legislation, I think?

Does somebody know differently?

In any case, there is nothing "supposed" about the Duchess of Cornwall's future as Princess Consort. Buckingham Palace has announced it. They are the authority.

After all, have we not posted ad infinitum that Lady Louise is legally, technically, HRH Princess Louise of Wessex - and yet no legislation has been passed, she is simply known as Lady Louise (including on TRF thread headings). It is, I believe, an exact paralell.