Diana/Charles/Camilla's Relationships Part 2

[Warren]

Welcome to the Diana/Charles/Camilla's Relationships Thread Part 2


Part 1 can be found here:

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f44/diana-charles-camillas-relationships-5642.html

 

[Lady Marmalade]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1861956,00.html

Very interesting article...

 

[tiaraprin]

Excellent article Lady Marmalade!! Spot on!! Diana lives on. . . .

 

[Skydragon]

Excellent article Lady Marmalade!! Spot on!! Diana lives on. . . .

I am certain they don't want to follow in Diana's footsteps and have affairs and divorce in their families. It will be interesting to see how it turns out for them all. They have married for love but even that can change. Getting married and having children does not guarantee a 'happy ever after'.

 

[Incas]

9 November 2005
CAMILLA RULES!
Polly Hudson on ITV1's new Royal drama

WHEN I woke yesterday morning I had no strong feelings either way about Camilla Parker Bowles, or the Duchess of Doodah, or whatever we're supposed to call her nowadays.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=16347972%26method=full%26siteid=94762%26headline=camilla%2drules%2d-name_page.html​

 

[tiaraprin]

I am certain they don't want to follow in Diana's footsteps and have affairs and divorce in their families. It will be interesting to see how it turns out for them all. They have married for love but even that can change. Getting married and having children does not guarantee a 'happy ever after'.

Equally they don't wish to follow in Charles' and Camilla's footsteps. A great deal there not to emulate either.

 

[BeatrixFan]

Re:

For Goodness Sake. Maybe they want their own lives and don't want to follow in either parents foot steps? Does nobody think of them as William and Harry the individuals? They are not extensions of Diana nor are they miniatures of Charles. They are young men who will build their own lives and their own personalities so anyone hoping that they are going to be photocopies of their parents should come to terms with that and stop the endless comparison.

 

[ysbel]

It will be interesting to see how the new crown princesses will turn out.

They seem to have learned the lesson that there must be love but they haven't learned the lesson that the girl must also be a good fit for a life in a monarchy. I think some of the royal families are taking chances with recent marriages here. Only time will tell how it will turn out.

Diana was not a good fit within the royal family and the institution of the British monarchy. If she had been able to work more effectively within the confines of the monarchy, she may have had a better chance of getting Camilla away from Charles.

Did they need love to succeed? Not a burning passionate love but definitely affection and respect.

People marry because they want to share their life with someone else. I don't think I'm the only one who has loved someone but not married him because I couldn't imagine living with him.

Charles and Diana had such different expectations of married life it was hard for them to create a life together that would satisfy both of them. The more different the background between the crown prince and his new crown princess the more likely their expectations of what a marriage entails will differ from each other.

So I think they have mitigated one risk and increased the other risk.

 

[Skydragon]

Equally they don't wish to follow in Charles' and Camilla's footsteps. A great deal there not to emulate either.

The comparison you were making was with Diana, saying her marriage into royalty had opened the way for other 'commoner' wives. I was trying to point out that it was not such a good example, if you consider how it all ended!
I hope they do follow in Charles and Camilla's footsteps, they have been in love for 35 years.

 

[tiaraprin]

The comparison you were making was with Diana, saying her marriage into royalty had opened the way for other 'commoner' wives. I was trying to point out that it was not such a good example, if you consider how it all ended!
I hope they do follow in Charles and Camilla's footsteps, they have been in love for 35 years.

Yes, but how many people did they hurt to do it?? And I do not just mean Diana. That is not an example to follow.

 

[branchg]

The comparison you were making was with Diana, saying her marriage into royalty had opened the way for other 'commoner' wives. I was trying to point out that it was not such a good example, if you consider how it all ended!
I hope they do follow in Charles and Camilla's footsteps, they have been in love for 35 years.

The Queen Mother was a far better example of a successful marriage of commoner and royal prince, don't you think?

 

[Saragli]

The Scottish Queen and King George were a much better example. He was the first royal to marry outside the royal families of europe and marry a noble scotwomen.

 

[ysbel]

The Queen Mother was a far better example of a successful marriage of commoner and royal prince, don't you think?

Yes, she is but there are many differences between the Queen Mum and Diana.

The Queen Mum didn't marry the Duke of York expecting to be queen. As Duchess of York, she was expected to carry out public functions on a limited basis but that was it. She did not have the pressure that Diana had or even Camilla has in marrying the heir to the throne.

Another difference she had was that there wasn't that large of a difference between accepted behavior in the aristocracy and in royalty. There were differences, some of them funny, such as the one where royals never smiled or looked into the camera but for the most part, titled society in general had a certain code of ethics for living and that code of ethics has been eroded.

Lastly, the major difference between Diana and the Queen Mum was that the Queen Mum came from an intact and fairly happy family who supported her. Diana's family was dysfunctional; there were rivalries between the sisters and she never got the support from her family that the Queen Mum got from hers.

It makes a difference in how successful a commoner can be marrying into a royal family.

 

[branchg]

Another difference she had was that there wasn't that large of a difference between accepted behavior in the aristocracy and in royalty. There were differences, some of them funny, such as the one where royals never smiled or looked into the camera but for the most part, titled society in general had a certain code of ethics for living and that code of ethics has been eroded.

I would agree the major point of difference, divorce, was certainly an unacceptable behavior in the 1920's by the standards of the aristocracy, while somewhat more acceptable (although by no means desirable) by the 1960's aristocracy. We shouldn't forget Diana's lineage as a Spencer-Churchill was far superior to a Bowes-Lyon in the eyes of the peerage.

People have confused Diana's public icon image for who she really was. While she certainly came to effectively utilize the power of the media to shape her public and private agenda, she was no commoner. She was an aristocrat of the first order and fully understood her duty to the monarchy. The problem was she became too enamoured of her power with the public and forgot the Queen was the boss. So, in the end, she did herself in and was torpedoed right out.

 

[Incas]

I would add another major difference between QM's marriage and Diana's was the role of the press. As Duchess of York, she was very popular and often photographed. However, the press during her time, and for the most part throughout her life, was very flattering to the point of obsequiousness. While the press was eager to place nice with Diana more often than not, they did turn hostile at times against her. Regardless of Diana's role in the change, the attitude of the press, both established and freelance, toward royals were quite different.

 

[Duchess]

For Goodness Sake. Maybe they want their own lives and don't want to follow in either parents foot steps? Does nobody think of them as William and Harry the individuals? They are not extensions of Diana nor are they miniatures of Charles. They are young men who will build their own lives and their own personalities so anyone hoping that they are going to be photocopies of their parents should come to terms with that and stop the endless comparison.

correct me if i'm wrong but the reference "follow in diana's footsteps" meant the ladies in the article not william and harry.

 

[ysbel]

She was an aristocrat of the first order and fully understood her duty to the monarchy. The problem was she became too enamoured of her power with the public and forgot the Queen was the boss. So, in the end, she did herself in and was torpedoed right out.

branchg, I agree with you on the last point but how much did her aristocratic background help her understand her duty to the monarchy? The only way I see is if she got some advice from Lady Fenmoy, her grandmother, the lady in waiting to the Queen Mother.

But from what I read, other than Lady Fenmoy, the Spencers relationship to the Royal Family was more on a social level rather than an official level. I don't understand the position of the aristocracy in normal society today but in the 1920s and 30s the class hierarchy among all classes was more firmly ensconced and everybody knew their place so to speak. The aristocracy received their own deference from the common classes back then but by the time Diana came along, I don't believe this class structure was as strong as it had been.

 

[branchg]

branchg, I agree with you on the last point but how much did her aristocratic background help her understand her duty to the monarchy? The only way I see is if she got some advice from Lady Fenmoy, her grandmother, the lady in waiting to the Queen Mother.

But from what I read, other than Lady Fenmoy, the Spencers relationship to the Royal Family was more on a social level rather than an official level.

Well, Diana certainly understood from Lady Fermoy what she was getting into. Also, remember, Lady Jane was married to Robert Fellowes who was already Assistant Private Secretary, so it's not like Diana was clueless as to her duties.

The Spencers were close to the Crown formally, rather than socially. Baron and Lady Fermoy were both close personal friends of George VI and Queen Elizabeth during their reign and Ruth was appointed a Lady of the Bedchamber to the Queen Mother in her widowhood.

Lady Fermoy was appalled at Diana's behavior and the separation and refused to speak with her until she was close to death. She felt Diana had betrayed her solemn oath to the monarchy and brought shame on her family for not staying in the marriage.

 

[Queen Mary I]

The comparison you were making was with Diana, saying her marriage into royalty had opened the way for other 'commoner' wives. I was trying to point out that it was not such a good example, if you consider how it all ended!
I hope they do follow in Charles and Camilla's footsteps, they have been in love for 35 years.

I wouldn't want my sons to emulate a father who cheated on me throughout my marriage with another woman. Or to emulate the woman who interfered in a marriage. Being in love doesn't justify deceit, and stealth. If Charles and Camilla's friends helped them by offering their homes for the 'lovers' to meet then they are as guilty of adultery as C & C of this sin. I suppose this is why they chose the 'manifolds sins' prayer for all to read out at their blessing service. I found the Archbishop asking if everyone-meaning C & C's friends in the congregation-if they would help C & C to be faithful rich indeed. They sure were no help to Diana in her lifetime.

 

[BeatrixFan]

They sure were no help to Diana in her lifetime.

Thats true. Diana was having many affairs herself. So don't forget that. Blame doesn't lie solely with Charles or Camilla. It also lies with Diana, Hewitt, The Queen etc etc.

 

[Warren]

I suppose this is why they chose the 'manifolds sins' prayer for all to read out at their blessing service. I found the Archbishop asking if everyone-meaning C & C's friends in the congregation-if they would help C & C to be faithful rich indeed. They sure were no help to Diana in her lifetime.

Oh dear, we are going round in circles again. As explained ad nauseum in the C&C Wedding Thread the "manifold sins" prayer was not something special for C&C. It is included in a standard Church of England prayer. Never let the facts get in the way of sanctimonious stone-throwing.

 

[Warren]

Marrying 'outside'

The Scottish Queen and King George were a much better example. He was the first royal to marry outside the royal families of europe and marry a noble scotwomen.

Princess Louise, daughter of Queen Victoria, married in 1871 John Campbell, 9th Duke of Argyll, Marquess of Lorne.

Off topic, but to show how the Queen had her finger on the pulse of public opinion: Victoria wrote to the Prince of Wales (who opposed the marriage on social grounds) "Times have changed; great foreign alliances are looked upon as causes of trouble and anxiety, and are no good... Nothing is more unpopular here or more uncomfortable for me and everyone, than the long residence of our married daughters from abroad in my house, with the quantities of foreigners they bring with them..."

Source: Queen Victoria's Descendants by Marlene Eilers, 1997

 

[ysbel]

Princess Louise, daughter of Queen Victoria, married in 1871 John Campbell, 9th Duke of Argyll, Marquess of Lorne.

Off topic, but to show how the Queen had her finger on the pulse of public opinion: Victoria wrote to the Prince of Wales (who opposed the marriage on social grounds) "Times have changed; great foreign alliances are looked upon as causes of trouble and anxiety, and are no good... Nothing is more unpopular here or more uncomfortable for me and everyone, than the long residence of our married daughters from abroad in my house, with the quantities of foreigners they bring with them..."

Source: Queen Victoria's Descendants by Marlene Eilers, 1997

That shows a certain xenophobia in Victoria, don't you think, Warren? Maybe she was just reflecting what was felt in the country at the time but it still seems awfully prejudiced. And awfully unfair to the Princess Alexandra who had her own trials to deal with.

 

[Warren]

That shows a certain xenophobia in Victoria, don't you think, Warren? Maybe she was just reflecting what was felt in the country at the time but it still seems awfully prejudiced. And awfully unfair to the Princess Alexandra who had her own trials to deal with.

Well, she was initially quite willing to marry them off to the Germans, but perhaps she didn't expect their entire households to descend on Osborne and Balmoral? And we shouldn't forget that her husband was German. 1871: the year Prussia crushed Napoleon III and the Reich was proclaimed at Versailles. Maybe a connection?
.

 

[ysbel]

I think you have a point there Warren. Maybe Victoria was eyeing the Prussians a little less favorably by that time and for good cause.

Who was Victoria talking about when she said "the long residence of our married daughters from abroad in my house, with the quantities of foreigners they bring with them"?

The only one I can think of was Marie of Russia who definitely was a pest but Alexandra hardly brought a lot of Danes with her to descend on Victoria's house.

In fact, since Victoria wrote the letter to Bertie who was married to one of the "married daughters from abroad" I wonder what he thought of his mother's sentiments? I think it would have given him pause to think.

 

[Mapple]

I think you have a point there Warren. Maybe Victoria was eyeing the Prussians a little less favorably by that time and for good cause.

...

Victoria at first was very pro-German in the time of the Franco-Prussian war, writing, for example: 'How dreadful the state of Paris is! Surely that Sodom and Gomorrah as Papa called it deserves to be crushed.' The Queen changed her mind after the German annexation of Alsace-Lorraine.

 

[Skydragon]

I wouldn't want my sons to emulate a father who cheated on me throughout my marriage with another woman. Or to emulate the woman who interfered in a marriage. .

Are you refering to all the cheating Diana did? As we all know now, she took more than one lover. Many of Diana's lovers had partners or were married, how much heartbreak did she cause to those women and their children, how much interferring? None of them lasted, so it could hardly have been for love. Charles and Camilla have been in love for 35 years and finally deserve to be happy.
Would you be so vindictive towards Diana, if she was now mrs al Fayed? Would you still be baying for Camilla's blood?
As Diana admitted in her infamous 1995 interview, they lived separate lives from 1988. They were both having affairs as early as 1986 (1981 if Hewitt is to be believed), so there was no marriage in the true sense of the word.

 

[Skydragon]

Oh dear, we are going round in circles again. As explained ad nauseum in the C&C Wedding Thread the "manifold sins" prayer was not something special for C&C. It is included in a standard Church of England prayer. Never let the facts get in the way of sanctimonious stone-throwing.

Well said Warren

 

[Iluvbertie]

I think you have a point there Warren. Maybe Victoria was eyeing the Prussians a little less favorably by that time and for good cause.

Who was Victoria talking about when she said "the long residence of our married daughters from abroad in my house, with the quantities of foreigners they bring with them"?

The only one I can think of was Marie of Russia who definitely was a pest but Alexandra hardly brought a lot of Danes with her to descend on Victoria's house.

In fact, since Victoria wrote the letter to Bertie who was married to one of the "married daughters from abroad" I wonder what he thought of his mother's sentiments? I think it would have given him pause to think.

I never took this letter to refer to her daughters-in-law but to her own daughters, specifically Princess Alice who did spend a lot of time in England due to the relative poverty of her husband's family and Helena who had married the German prince of Schleswig-Holstein.

It certainly can't refer to Marie of Russia if the letter was written in 1871 as Alfred and Marie didn't marry until 1874.

 

[Queen Mary I]

Thats true. Diana was having many affairs herself. So don't forget that. Blame doesn't lie solely with Charles or Camilla. It also lies with Diana, Hewitt, The Queen etc etc.

I never said Diana was a saint. She responded in the wrong way to a philandering husband and a mistress who did not respect the late Princess Of Wale's marriage even before it began. Diana should have sought a divorce right away or better yet an annulment (at least a civil annulment-I don't think those are possible in the C of E-like in the C of R).

My sister did the same thing as Diana in response to a cheating husband-which is one reason this is such a sore point for me. Adultery causes so much pain, and heartache for all involved. It is like my sister said about 'the other woman'. 'What did I ever do to her that she would do this to me? I didn't even know her'. The same could be said in regards to Diana and Camilla. Camilla threw the first punch in my estimation. Along with Charles. Diana did not know how to fight back. Her own parents had a horrible marriage record.