Diana/Charles/Camilla's Relationships Part 1

[Alexandria]

Then Alexandria, what is good for the goose is good for the gander here. Charles didn't have much respect for his marriage either, did he??? No matter how much all of you Charles' supporters try to clean him up, he has mud on his face that will never be wiped clean. Camilla wears that mud too.

tiaraprin, I never said that Charles and Camilla were innocent in all this or absolved of any responsibility or not at fault. I am not trying to clean him or Camilla up. I have no personal reason to as I liked Diana but I also like Camilla -- yes it is possible to like both women.

I simply pointed out that I think an affair is an affair is an affair and that no matter how you slice it or try to clean it up, there are no excuses for Diana's affairs. That she had them after Charles took up with Camilla again does not make her affair excusable or okay. She cheated during her marriage to Charles, period. She's as guilty as him of adultery and there are no explanations or reasons that justify her affair over his affair.

 

[james]

Hang on! Why are we merley discussing Camilla, Charles & Diana? Camilla was also cheating on her own husband. The father of her two children. Even if Charles had remained single he was still doing wrong in sleeping with another man's wife. Camilla also seemed to think nothing about having sex with Charles under these circimstances.

I can't help but shake my head at all this. Why didn't he and Camilla go off to live the simple life in the country? Her being called "Highness" and pulled along in carraiges is totally absurd. How on Earth can any of us respect this pair? Most people in the same situation would be ashamed but there seems to be no shaming them at all.

 

[Bubbette]

OH, I don't know if it was cheating; I think she and TPB had an open relationship.

 

[susan alicia]

of course they are a bit ashamed for what happened in the past but I do not know on which rarerified planet some of the members of this website live on, they sound either very young or extremely lucky so far and quite judgemental.
I know that there are people on this world who are not only unfaithfull with people that they do not really love but they do not really love the person they are married to either.

As far as I know we all have something which we could have done better and if you can not respect someone with faults, like charles and camilla, you can not respect anyone, including yourself.

Hang on! Why are we merley discussing Camilla, Charles & Diana? Camilla was also cheating on her own husband. The father of her two children. Even if Charles had remained single he was still doing wrong in sleeping with another man's wife. Camilla also seemed to think nothing about having sex with Charles under these circimstances.

I can't help but shake my head at all this. Why didn't he and Camilla go off to live the simple life in the country? Her being called "Highness" and pulled along in carraiges is totally absurd. How on Earth can any of us respect this pair? Most people in the same situation would be ashamed but there seems to be no shaming them at all.

 

[lashinka2002]

An of course didn't Camilla's husband cheat on her?
What is this world coming to?

 

[tiaraprin]

Hang on! Why are we merley discussing Camilla, Charles & Diana? Camilla was also cheating on her own husband. The father of her two children. Even if Charles had remained single he was still doing wrong in sleeping with another man's wife. Camilla also seemed to think nothing about having sex with Charles under these circimstances.

I can't help but shake my head at all this. Why didn't he and Camilla go off to live the simple life in the country? Her being called "Highness" and pulled along in carraiges is totally absurd. How on Earth can any of us respect this pair? Most people in the same situation would be ashamed but there seems to be no shaming them at all.

AMEN TO THAT!!!! While Diana did commit adultery, she was not going to be Queen of England even before her tragic demise. Charles will be King if it the unfortunate happens and Her Majesty does not outlive him. Camilla, at the very least, will be Princess Consort, or if Charles gets his way, Queen. It is all too disturbing.

Camilla and her husband did have an "open marriage". He even attended the blessing of Charles' and Camilla's civil union with his new wife. The aristocracy sure has some strange values!

 

[tiaraprin]

Morality

of course they are a bit ashamed for what happened in the past but I do not know on which rarerified planet some of the members of this website live on, they sound either very young or extremely lucky so far and quite judgemental.
I know that there are people on this world who are not only unfaithfull with people that they do not really love but they do not really love the person they are married to either.

As far as I know we all have something which we could have done better and if you can not respect someone with faults, like charles and camilla, you can not respect anyone, including yourself.

Uh Susan, I was taught the basic rules of MORALITY. While I am certainly not overtly religious or pious, I was taught by my parents what was right and wrong. I would not settle for a sham of a marriage and Diana was right to put her foot down!! I have not married someone to only commit adultery when things have gone bad. I have more of a sense of right and wrong than that. If things went bad, there would be a divorce if the marriage was not able to be saved. Just some basic common sense.

It is true they were all wrong in an impossible position, but they let themselves be dragged into it--even poor Diana. I wished she had listened to her instincts instead of the the aristocratic value of marrying up. She would have had a much better chance at happiness. AND if Charles had had a backbone, he wouldn't have wilted and married just because Daddy said so.

 

[Wisnu]

I thought if the affair of Charles & Camilla when Diana was in the mid of 30 of ages, I thought Diana would excuse it, since Diana would be mature enough, no justify her affair over his affair (as Alexandria said). But the adultery was shadowing almost entire Charles & Diana marriage, what would we expect from 20 y old lady. Since indeed Charles tend to do it.

 

[Elspeth]

Uh Susan, I was taught the basic rules of MORALITY. While I am certainly not overtly religious or pious, I was taught by my parents what was right and wrong. I would not settle for a sham of a marriage and Diana was right to put her foot down!!

You may not settle for a sham of a marriage, but it's the way things were done in the British upper classes for a very long time. It was recognised that marriages took place for reasons other than the feelings of the two people involved, so if either or both of them wanted to indulge their feelings after having done their duty and married and produced heirs, a blind eye was turned as long as they were discreet.

Unfortunately for Charles and Diana, they were living at a time when things were changing: nowadays the heir to the throne isn't constrained like Charles was into marrying someone considered "suitable." Even though his marriage wasn't an arranged marriage in the traditional sense, he wasn't going to be allowed to marry just anyone he took a fancy to. If Prince William were doing his courting back then, I don't think Kate Middleton would be a likely prospect, not being the daughter of some duke or earl or whatever. Charles was mindful that he had to marry someone suitable, and Diana was much more free to dream of a love match. It really was a most hideous misunderstanding from the very start.

It is true they were all wrong in an impossible position, but they let themselves be dragged into it--even poor Diana. I wished she had listened to her instincts instead of the the aristocratic value of marrying up. She would have had a much better chance at happiness. AND if Charles had had a backbone, he wouldn't have wilted and married just because Daddy said so.

Who knows what her instincts were? She was probably too young to know her mind clearly; the tragedy is that her family weren't there for her when she needed them, they seemed too keen to push her at the royal family (even though her grandmother claimed years later that she'd warned Diana against marrying Charles).

 

[tiaraprin]

You may not settle for a sham of a marriage, but it's the way things were done in the British upper classes for a very long time. It was recognised that marriages took place for reasons other than the feelings of the two people involved, so if either or both of them wanted to indulge their feelings after having done their duty and married and produced heirs, a blind eye was turned as long as they were discreet.

Unfortunately for Charles and Diana, they were living at a time when things were changing: nowadays the heir to the throne isn't constrained like Charles was into marrying someone considered "suitable." Even though his marriage wasn't an arranged marriage in the traditional sense, he wasn't going to be allowed to marry just anyone he took a fancy to. If Prince William were doing his courting back then, I don't think Kate Middleton would be a likely prospect, not being the daughter of some duke or earl or whatever. Charles was mindful that he had to marry someone suitable, and Diana was much more free to dream of a love match. It really was a most hideous misunderstanding from the very start.




Who knows what her instincts were? She was probably too young to know her mind clearly; the tragedy is that her family weren't there for her when she needed them, they seemed too keen to push her at the royal family (even though her grandmother claimed years later that she'd warned Diana against marrying Charles).

I am quite aware of this Elspeth through my extensive reading and researching of the British Royals. However, when Charles and Diana married in 1981, we were at the end of the 20th Century and a millenium and one would think this type of carrying on would have greatly diminished.

Only being an "American Commoner", different values are taught here--not that all heed them. I heed them.

Yes, Diana was too young to know her mind and her family was not there for her. I truly believe she was a sacrificial lamb. By the time she realized what she had done, it was too late and she didn't have the strength to fight a moral value and a centuries old institution immediately. She did find the courage though and showed the world that this type of behavior should not be condoned by any spouse female or male for that matter. Yes, Diana "dirties" her reputation with other men and I wish she hadn't, but dealing with what she had on her plate, God only knows what anyone would do. She should not be condemned then by this "moral value" of finding comfort elsewhere if one is not going to condemn Charles. Diana tried to fight for right. Charles surely didn't, he just wanted his way.

 

[dianafan]

As Prince Charles could go strangely during its marriage with Princess Diana why princess Diana could not strangely go? She got of him no love then is that nevertheless normal that she will fiend it somewhere else or can Charles everything and Diana nothing, simply because he ever king would become!

 

[Elspeth]

I am quite aware of this Elspeth through my extensive reading and researching of the British Royals. However, when Charles and Diana married in 1981, we were at the end of the 20th Century and a millenium and one would think this type of carrying on would have greatly diminished.

I think it finally has, but Charles was caught on the dying edge of it, and hence at least some of the problems.

It remains to be seen how royalty will develop as the senior royals in the various monarchies choose spouses from the ranks of the rest of us. There ought to be a lot less excuse for unhappy marriages, though.

 

[tiaraprin]

I think it finally has, but Charles was caught on the dying edge of it, and hence at least some of the problems.

It remains to be seen how royalty will develop as the senior royals in the various monarchies choose spouses from the ranks of the rest of us. There ought to be a lot less excuse for unhappy marriages, though.

Wouldn't it be great Elspeth?? I know there will always be problems, but hopefully there will be more loving, happy marriages.

 

[lashinka2002]

Uh Susan, I was taught the basic rules of MORALITY. While I am certainly not overtly religious or pious, I was taught by my parents what was right and wrong. I would not settle for a sham of a marriage and Diana was right to put her foot down!! I have not married someone to only commit adultery when things have gone bad. I have more of a sense of right and wrong than that. If things went bad, there would be a divorce if the marriage was not able to be saved. Just some basic common sense.

It is true they were all wrong in an impossible position, but they let themselves be dragged into it--even poor Diana. I wished she had listened to her instincts instead of the the aristocratic value of marrying up. She would have had a much better chance at happiness. AND if Charles had had a backbone, he wouldn't have wilted and married just because Daddy said so.

Right! And in Diana's childhood home didn't her father put his foot down eventually to his and his wife's sham of a marraige???
In my opinion Diana was only doing what she had be taught from home!!!

 

[una]

BUT the majority of the evidence shows Diana did not start her affair with James Hewitt UNTIL Charles went back to Camilla. At least she wasn't the first adulterous one.

Aren't you forgetting Barry Mannakee, who pre-dated James Hewitt? I'm not sure anyone knows who jumped first, they both seem to have begun affairs around the same time. And wasn't this for the best in the circumstances? They could keep the form of the marriage going (for the children, their duty?) without continually tearing each other apart.

 

[Elspeth]

The idea that she'd had an affair with Barry Manakee, as opposed to just a rather dependent sort of friendship, is by no means a set-in-rock fact, just like the claims of when Charles went back to Camilla. The interpretations always seem to depend on the opinions of people about Charles and Diana, and whether they want to make them look good or not.

Lashinka, I thought it was Diana's mother who'd walked out on the family to go and live with Peter Shand Kydd and that Earl Spencer was surprised that Frances was even unhappy?

 

[tiaraprin]

Aren't you forgetting Barry Mannakee, who pre-dated James Hewitt? I'm not sure anyone knows who jumped first, they both seem to have begun affairs around the same time. And wasn't this for the best in the circumstances? They could keep the form of the marriage going (for the children, their duty?) without continually tearing each other apart.

There is no conclusive evidence that Diana had a sexual affair with Manakee. No writer, whether pro or anti Diana has proved this.

They were very close, but he was more like a father than a lover to Diana. He was the one the Princess turned to for emotional support when the marriage was sinking fast. It was just like those early days in Buckingham Palace before her marriage when she turned to the footman and kitchen staff to talk to and have some kind of rapport with in the lonely days of being ignored.

 

[una]

There is no conclusive evidence that Diana had a sexual affair with Manakee. No writer, whether pro or anti Diana has proved this.

They were very close, but he was more like a father than a lover to Diana.

Yes, it's not clear whether there was a sexual affair, only that Diana " fell deeply in love" (her words) with him, and there was no proof one way or the other.

Diana said that Charles thought that she and Mannakee were having an affair, so this might have influenced his view of the marriage as irretrievable broken down. It would be ironic if Charles went back to Camilla in the belief that Diana had been the first to leave the marriage, if, in fact, she hadn't!

 

[james]

Moonlightrhapsody I am glad you have said what you have said as I have previously thought I have been going mad on this thread.

For the final time, it dosn't matter what came to pass AFTER Charles and Diana married. When the Groom is winking at one of his lady friends in the Church he is getting married in (as Charles was caught on camera doing to Camilla) it doasn't bode well for a marraige.

 

[ysbel]

I think what a lot of people don't realize is what effects Diana's emotional problems could have had on Charles. She had an eating disorder and these symptoms come much earlier than the age of 19 or 20 when Diana first married. She may have been suicidal if her fall down the stairs when pregnant with William was not a stunt. Even if Charles had committed adultery with Camilla on day one it is not a normal human reaction to throw yourself down the stairs while pregnant with your first child.

I've known some families where the women have eating disorders and they don't handle it well. The families of the women can't deal with it and the families that they marry into are even less prepared to deal with it. The same goes for families that have a tendency for suicide. There's a revulsion towards the person for doing such strange and upsetting things and then there's a tremendous guilt for feeling the revulsion. I've known marriages to break up because the man felt totally helpless in the face of what seems like an unfathomable situation that they have no control over. And these families are not even royal with the centuries old baggage that comes with being a royal.

If all the statements about Charles being weak-willed and indecisive are true, then he definitely couldn't handle a wife who was either bulimic or suicidal or both. And these traits just don't pop up because you find out your husband had an affair. They may get worse but they just don't appear.

What happened with Charles, Camilla and Diana we'll never know for sure. But if his previous relationships are any indicator, women moved from friend to girlfriend back to friend quite easily. Its as if there wasn't much of a difference for him between being in love and having a really good chum to hang around with. Maybe being in love for him WAS just having a good chum to hang around with. I think he and Camilla are more chummy than they look romantically in love.

Just speculation but its quite possible he saw no conflict with his friendship with Camilla and a marriage to Diana. But if so, it would have been a dangerous combination. For a man where women move from chum to girlfriend and back again so easily, having a wife with hard to understand emotional problems and a chum with whom he could confide in about his marriage troubles, made the friendship very vulnerable to turning into an affair.

The affair was still wrong and one wishes he or Diana would have stood up to the sham and called it quits a little sooner than they did. But neither of them I believe was strong enough.

Judging Charles for not being able to handle Diana's problems and turning to Camilla I think is just as unrealistic as judging Diana for throwing herself down the stairs. Its all just sad.

 

[Reina]

The reason why Diana became bulimic was b/c Charles said that she was a bit chubby. THanks to her insecurity she tried to lose way, but in an unsafe way.

 

[ysbel]

Hi Reina,

Sadly eating disorders doesn't work that way. They manifest themselves in the early years of puberty when girls bodies change although it may not be noticeable to others yet.

Charles may have said she was a bit chubby which would have been a bit insensitive and made it worse but this in itself would not have caused the bulimia.

 

[Elspeth]

The reason why Diana became bulimic was b/c Charles said that she was a bit chubby. THanks to her insecurity she tried to lose way, but in an unsafe way.

There's some evidence that her eating disorders started some time before she ever met Charles. It depends whose story you believe. She isn't the only one in the family to have the problem either.

 

[lashinka2002]

There's some evidence that her eating disorders started some time before she ever met Charles. It depends whose story you believe. She isn't the only one in the family to have the problem either.

Please elaborate...
I've never heard of any evidence of the beginings of Diana's eating disorders before Charles' comments and the pressure of the harsh spotlight.

 

[ysbel]

Hi Elspeth and lashinka

lashinka I don't have any personal knowledge that Diana had an eating disorder before meeting Charles. I simply have an understanding of the disorders after being in close contact with women who had it and their families.

Its a major misconception that one event or a single period of stress brings on an eating disorder and this misconception has caused a lot of pain and anguish for both those who suffer from the disorder and also to their families.

Anorexia and bulimia are both an attempt to gain control and the signs first appear in puberty when girls' bodies change and a sense of not being in control of your body develops. All girls go through feeling a lack of control during puberty but most get through the phase without an eating disorder. Its possible for girls to display symptoms of both bulimia and anorexia but one behavior usually dominates.

When Diana was pregnant with William it was thought she was anorexic but with her bulimia was the primary disorder. Eating disorders usually appear in the 'good' girl of the family. They put a lot of pressure on themselves to be good and dutiful. From the accounts of Diana's childhood, she was the good girl of the family and her kindness and dutifulness were admired by the Royal Family.

For Diana to show signs of anorexia and then develop bulimia so soon after her marriage, makes it highly unlikely (although I guess not impossible) for it to have developed only after she met Charles and been put under the pressures of worldwide fame. I guess it can happen but that's generally not how these disorders work.

The point I wanted to make was that the effect on her family - both her own family and the Royal Family cannot be underestimated. Its very frightening to see this up close and people don't know how to cope. From the outside it looks like they're acting incredibly insensitive but its very hard to imagine what its like being in the situation.

 

[lashinka2002]

Right, so negative weight comments and the pressure of new found fame could have been the final thing to push her over the edge. Issues before she met Charles within her own family and friends that she may not have been able to control may have contributed to the final outcome.

The BRF & the Spencer famalies should have both educated themselves in this matter. Sure it's a hard thing to deal with, a hard thing to watch a loved one go through but if a family member had cancer or another sickness surley they would have done the best that they could have. In my opinion I don't think that they did very much for Diana's disorder. I don't think that they took it seriously. She really needed help, strangers off the streets would have given her more help.

This may be a little outspoken but I feel you always help the ones you love & Charles really did not love Diana. The Spencer side may not have been fully aware of Diana's bulimia. Had Camilla been ill Charles would have stepped up to the plate & made sure of her recovery.

 

[tiaraprin]

Right, so negative weight comments and the pressure of new found fame could have been the final thing to push her over the edge. Issues before she met Charles within her own family and friends that she may not have been able to control may have contributed to the final outcome.

The BRF & the Spencer famalies should have both educated themselves in this matter. Sure it's a hard thing to deal with, a hard thing to watch a loved one go through but if a family member had cancer or another sickness surley they would have done the best that they could have. In my opinion I don't think that they did very much for Diana's disorder. I don't think that they took it seriously. She really needed help, strangers off the streets would have given her more help.

This may be a little outspoken but I feel you always help the ones you love & Charles really did not love Diana. The Spencer side may not have been fully aware of Diana's bulimia. Had Camilla been ill Charles would have stepped up to the plate & made sure of her recovery.

I do believe Diana had some trouble with eating disorders before meeting Charles. Her sister Sarah was an anorexic and Charles actually helped her in her recovery. Too bad he couldn't help his own wife!!

I believe upon becoming engaged to him and being left alone to wander Buckingham Palace is when it went full force. She was a shy, inexperienced girl who was being ignored by all, including Charles. Bulimia was her way of gaining control in her life--eating disorders are usually caused by this issue. The world of the anorexic/bulimic is spinning out of control and she cannot stop it. So what does she do?? She gains control over the one thing she can--her weight. That is where a sufferer feels like they have power over what happens in their life.

I do not doubt if Camilla was suffering from this, Charles would have been frantic getting her help. For Diana, he read one book and called in Sir Laurens Van Der Post. Yeah, that was really going to help the situation.

 

[Warren]

Doctors don't tell

For Diana, he read one book and called in Sir Laurens Van Der Post. Yeah, that was really going to help the situation.

We have no knowledge of what medical assistance was requested; we have no idea of what was discussed with the physicians and specialists who attend members of the Royal Family. As far as I know none of these doctors and specialists have published their memoirs giving details of their Royal patients, nor sold tidbits to the tabloids.

We will probably never know what assistance and treatment was offered and given to Diana in relation to her physical and emotional difficulties. As much as we would like to know all the details, not everyone tells.
.

 

[ysbel]

In my opinion I don't think that they did very much for Diana's disorder. I don't think that they took it seriously. She really needed help, strangers off the streets would have given her more help.

I would agree with you that they probably didn't take it seriously.

This is very common in families with this disorder. The family's first reaction is that the good girl is being willful and misbehaving so they become angry. They try to pressure the woman to behave normally and that makes the situation worse. In many cases, when it doesn't work they mentally give up and pull back. Incidentally it is usually strangers of the street or someone not well known to the family that can make a difference.

As Warren says, we'll never know for sure but there are some predictable reactions based on study of families with the disorder. From what we can tell of the Royal Family's reactions it supports the theory that they acted much as other families did.

Very occasionally a woman may marry a man who has the strength to be able to take on the challenge and provide real help and comfort to his wife but that's the very rare exception not the rule. Its easy to say the Spencers and the Royals should have done better but from the little evidence we have, it seems they did what most other families faced with the situation do.

I do remember that Diana saw a therapist on the advice of the Royal Family. The Queen Mother had seen a therapist and suggested it. But not all therapists have experience with eating disorders so it may not have helped that much.

 

[Elspeth]

Please elaborate...
I've never heard of any evidence of the beginings of Diana's eating disorders before Charles' comments and the pressure of the harsh spotlight.

I don't remember which book it was, but at least one book about her said that she started showing signs of binge eating and possibly purging while still at school. The pressures of such a high-profile engagement while she was still young would have no doubt triggered any latent tendency to bulimia, but it sounds as though it was there from her adolescence.

My understanding of a disease like bulimia and anorexia is that it would take a lot more than an off-hand comment like Charles's alleged one to create bulimia in a previously healthy person. That sounds like a bit of judicious rewriting of history to me. It's quite possible that he was dense enough to say it, but it wouldn't have been the only thing going on.