Charles and Camilla - The Early Years (1970s)

[Iluvbertie]

Then how do you explain his string of involvements with non-titled woman vetted as possible Queens - like Davina Sheffield? Who I think I focus on because it was the first moment I really thought he was going to marry - that she was it. Imagine if she had been the one? She seemed a modest sort - not flashy. Too bad it didn't work out.

They still came from the aristocracy and not the lower levels. Look at their father's as you have listed them
The Duke of Wellington (and Jane is still unmarried)
Santa Cruz was never a serious contender - wrong religion
Davina Sheffield's father was LORD McGowan - so a titled family
The others weren't serious contenders really.

In all seriousness the only ones who really were serious contenders were the Spencer girls, Lady Jane Wellesley and maybe at a stretch Davina Sheffield. The rest were flirtations - like Camilla at the time - good enough to have some fun with but the serious wifely one had to come from the right level of society. Camilla, I think realised that and never seriously considered herself a potential wife for Charles in the early 70s - sadly as it turns out but as a result William has been able to marry Kate, from an even lower class (and I hate that word but it is the only one that applied) than Camilla was in the 1970s.

Charles was a flirt in the 70s and had a string of girlfriends but the only ones seriously considered suitable to be his bride came from the limited upper echelons of society.

 

[Tyger]

All the might-have-beens and if only's: if only the IRA bombing had not succeeded probably is the first one, then surely we would have seen a Princess Jane, not so, or Princess Amanda? Or had Charles not felt so disoriented by the press' frenzy and had waited - would the times have allowed him to continue being unwed? The press at that time was so crazy.

Still, the more I look at it the less it seems like he was holding a torch for Camilla during all that wining and dining and being out-and-about - he was, after all, doing Royal Duties then, a full schedule, right? Good friends - sure - a couple whose house he could relax at - but anything else just doesn't make sense given all the options he was playing with. Love of the kind that makes for marriage (with Camilla) didn't become evident until a whole lot later, in my estimation.

 

[Iluvbertie]

I think that what happened was that he was in love with Camilla but they both believed that the class difference made it impossible so she went for APB, with whom she knew she could be happy while Charles spent the 70s looking for 'the one' within the right class.

As Camilla's marriage was a bit more open she was able to be friends with Charles.

Charles was 'settling' for second best when he did marry as his true love was elsewhere both believing that she wasn't high enough born to be his wife.

 

[Osipi]

Charles was 'settling' for second best when he did marry as his true love was elsewhere both believing that she wasn't high enough born to be his wife.

During the 70s, I really don't think Charles really had any idea of what he was looking for. We have to remember too that dating for a royal prince at that time was quite different than perhaps how couples dated in my circle of friends at that time. First, being in the active military and then taking on royal duties, his schedule was pretty much planned out for him and he couldn't just pop on over to see his girlfriend. Andrew and Camilla Parker-Bowles were part of his intimate circle of friends and most likely attended the same things and house parties and hunt events and this kept Charles and Camilla as close friends.

I've read it several places that Charles really trusted and valued Camilla as a confidant and I've always wondered if perhaps he started to turn to Camilla more and more about his affairs of the heart after the assassination of Louis Mountbatten in '79. Perhaps Charles really did think that Amanda Knatchbull was the perfect match for him and I'd not be surprised that if the assassination plot had never been, they might have married. Amanda though did refuse his proposal and without his Uncle Dickie, once again Charles was feeling lost. If he had turned to Camilla at this time as an advisor, it would make sense of the reports of how Camilla also tried to befriend the young Diana.

Was Camilla his true love from the start? We'll never really know but personally I think their love is something that has grown and changed over decades rooted in deep friendship and compatibility.

 

[miss whirley]

After reading through this thread and all the theories about the depth of C&C's love in the early 70's, I'm left with the question of "what if?" much like when I read about Margaret & Townsend. Margaret's choice not to marry Townsend really only affected herself. Though I suppose you could argue her divorce from AAJ, improved HM's opinion of divorced people. HM was more inclusive to Earl Harewood and others, afterward.

But if Charles had declared his love to Camilla at the end of '72 and asked her to wait for him, and they got engaged and married when he returned from Australia, I think there would have been a much greater impact on the BRF. With a single APB, who was finally free from his on-off love saga with Camilla, would Anne have really married Mark? She didn't get serious with him until after APB announced his engagement. Might she have married APB? He certainly seems to be her first love and to date they are still good friends. I don't think his Catholicism would have bothered Anne too much. In the 70's she was much more interested in 3-day Eventing than in royal duties, and she had 3 brothers before her in-line. Also QEQM was a big fan of the Parker-Bowles family. I doubt his wandering eye would have been a deal breaker as MP was just as notorious as APB. Or maybe she would have gotten back with APB, dated him for a while and then she would have moved on to a unknown new man and married him.

Similarly, without Diana in the picture to act as cupid for Andrew and Sarah, who would he have married? Would he have found his way to Sarah irregardless? Or would he likely met and married someone else? If he had a successful marriage with less controversy surrounding him, he might be a lot more popular today.

It's just crazy to think about what a domino effect young Charles and Camilla had on the BRF. The BRF might not have become celebritfied. Camilla has an earthy charm to her, but I doubt the tabloids would/could have whipped the public into such a frenzy. Charles wouldn't have nutters saying he should surrender the Crown because he was one-half of a bad marriage. And maybe none of HM's kids would have been divorced. Young Charles and Camilla were quite a catalyst in a lot of ways.

 

[Queen Camilla]

Sorry ,miss whirley, but you are trying to blame three divorces on Camilla but it is not going to work.

1. In 1974 Charles said he was too young to get married.
In 1973 he would not have married Camilla because he was too young.
Charles also said he did not planned to get married until after the age of 30.
(This might have been a separate interview.)
2. Camilla is older than Charles and Camilla would not have waited around until 1978/1979 to get married. Most women of her generation married before the age of 25.
3. Princess Anne never dated Andrew Parker Bowles.
APB accompanied her to events but Princess Anne was actually dating and in love with Mark Philips since 1968. The media were aware of their relationship but Anne kept denying it. IIRC Anne & Mark's relationship and dating history was featured in one of the articles leading up to the wedding, IIRC the article was in the London Times.
4. The Spencers wanted Sarah to marry Charles and Diana to marry Andrew.
There is a reason why John Spencer moved into Park House and became a tenant of the Queen.
There is a reason why the Roches moved out and the Spencers moved in.
Diana told her classmates she was going to marry Andrew.
When she was about 13 she switched her attention from Andrew to Charles.
Diana turned 13 in 1974 the same year Charles said he was too young to marry.
Diana would have married Andrew, if Charles did not become available.

 

[miss whirley]

I'm hardly blaming Camilla for three divorces. That would be like me blaming Townsend for all Margaret and Armstrong-Jones' love woes. Nonsense. I'm just saying there was a domino effect that included a broad reach.

1. Charles said he was too young to marry after he lost Camilla. Not surprising he was in no hurry at that point.

2. I don't think she would have had to wait that long. After losing Townsend, Margaret waited until she was almost 30 to marry. That doesn't mean if she stayed with Townsend she would have said, "Sorry, Darling, I can't marry you until 1960, when I'm in my 30th year."

3. You are one of the few to hold that opinion. I go with the widely accepted timeline.

4. Who cares what the Spencers wanted. I'm sure plenty of other well bred/connected families wanted the same. Dickie wanted Amanda, and that didn't happen, and he had a lot more influence over the BRF than Diana's family. I don't think Andrew would have married Diana. I vaguely remember some quote attributed to him, I'm paraphrasing, but it said he liked Diana as a person but he preferred women who were more laid back and could laugh at themselves.
Andrew can be a bit oafish and likes to crack jokes, I think someone insecure like Diana, who also has a bit of a temper, might take his jokes too seriously and lash out if she thinks he's mocking her. It would have been a bad match. Besides Andrew seems to have a preference for redheads and brunettes.

 

[Curryong]

I agree. I don't think Diana and Andrew would have married. Andrew was far too boisterous in temperament for Diana and she was too sensitive for him. I don't think either thought of each other in a romantic way.

I believe that while Camilla was fond of Charles in the 1970's Andrew PB was the love of Camilla's life at that time. He was exciting and a challenge to her, I think.

 

[Queen Camilla]

It's just crazy to think about what a domino effect young Charles and Camilla had on the BRF. The BRF might not have become celebritfied. Camilla has an earthy charm to her, but I doubt the tabloids would/could have whipped the public into such a frenzy. Charles wouldn't have nutters saying he should surrender the Crown because he was one-half of a bad marriage. And maybe none of HM's kids would have been divorced. Young Charles and Camilla were quite a catalyst in a lot of ways.

I'm hardly blaming Camilla for three divorces. That would be like me blaming Townsend for all Margaret and Armstrong-Jones' love woes. Nonsense. I'm just saying there was a domino effect that included a broad reach.

So what exactly does your highlighted comments mean.

 

[miss whirley]

So what exactly does your highlighted comments mean.

It means exactly what I said. A domino effect is like a ripple effect.

Do you think Camilla would have set-up Sarah with Andrew? She either would have set him up with someone else, or she would have left him to his own devices. Thus an early marriage between C&C would have had a ripple effect on Andrew's love life. I'm not sure why you think that's me being critical. Andrew might have fallen madly in love with some other woman and still be married in this Alternative Universe. Or he might have divorced any woman he married. We don't know because the domino effect never happened. That's why I said maybe none of HM's kids would have divorced in this scenario.

 

[Queen Camilla]

It means exactly what I said. A domino effect is like a ripple effect.

Do you think Camilla would have set-up Sarah with Andrew? She either would have set him up with someone else, or she would have left him to his own devices. Thus an early marriage between C&C would have had a ripple effect on Andrew's love life. I'm not sure why you think that's me being critical. Andrew might have fallen madly in love with some other woman and still be married in this Alternative Universe. Or he might have divorced any woman he married. We don't know because the domino effect never happened. That's why I said maybe none of HM's kids would have divorced in this scenario.

You are trying to blame C&C.

Diana and her family chased Charles.
Diana set up Sarah.

The domino effect came with Diana.

So this should be moved to Diana's thread as it has nothing to do with C&C early year but a thinly veiled disguise to blame C&C for three marriages.

Diana was responsible for Sarah but your post tries to blame C&C.
Diana was responsible for marrying Charles and she is responsible for her own action.

Anne and Mark are responsible for their action not APB and not Camilla.

This has nothing to do with C&C early years, just a poor attempt at creating another thread to trash C&C.

 

[miss whirley]

Good Grief. I'm not blaming anyone.

I'm surprised your not accusing me of loathing William, Harry, Beatrice, Eugenie, Peter, Zara, Tom, Laura, and their children. Because none of them would have been born in this Alternative Universe.

Also, if Charles married Camilla after Australia, Diana would have never been introduced to the picture, so why would we talk about this in Diana's thread? Now if I wanted to discuss who Diana might have married in a world without Charles, then I would take it to a Diana thread. But I'm not interested in a non-BRF Lady Diana Spencer.

 

[Jacknch]

We are now going way off topic and into the realms of speculative theorising (and sniping with one another) as to who was responsible for this or that and making statements based on our own preferences as if they are fact. Can we please try to discuss the correct topic in the correct thread. Thank you

 

[Osipi]

In looking back to the 70s when Charles and Camilla first met, most seem to focus on a romantic, grand passionate love affair, man/woman sexual type relationship. To me, much more happened at another level which actually, IMO, is much more important and played a major role in both C&C's lives to this day.

It was the 70s and Charles and Camilla quickly formed a friendship that would last and survive over the decades. Perhaps they had a romantic love affair but through it all, one thing remained. A very deep, intimate bond between two people we call best friends. She understood him and he understood her. There was a deep level of trust and support for each other and they knew they could always count on the other to be there for them no matter what. Its the kind of friendship that survives one marrying someone else and still remaining best friends even to the point of asking Charles to be godfather to their first born son and the kids growing up knowing "Sir" was coming to visit and using the "Sir" as an affectionate term like "Uncle" or any other nickname.

Perhaps it is this kind friendship that has stood the test of time through the good, the bad and the ugly that cements their marriage now and makes it work so well.

 

[Denville]

I think that Charles was more in love with Cam back in the 70s than she was with him. I think she enjoyed her freedom too much ot want to marry into the RF and she loved "Bad Boy" Andrew. I think that after her marriage, perhaps quite soon, she got disillusioned with Andrew's womanising and got fed up with his STILL sleeping around and being away a lot, most likely... so she turned to Charles and yes I think they always WERE Good friends and she loved him as a friend and was happy to spend time iwht him.. and when her children were born they had another affair.
I think that she IS a loyal friend and now that she and And are divorced, they are still good friends..

 

[Jacknch]

Posts discussing the sexual pasts of members of the Royal Family have either been edited or deleted.
A reminder that one of our rules states that members will refrain from posting "any content deemed by us to be obscene, sexually explicit, vulgar, threatening, harassing, or abusive"

 

[O-H Anglophile]

And I think that Charles was young.. Again, I think the queen would have been a bit dubious about him getting wed at - 25. Philip too would problaby say "Play the field a bit more son, and don't tie yourself down too early".
but Perhaps Chas knew that even though he was young and he knew that Camilla's past would count against her..and that she was in love with Andrew PB, she was the girl he really really loved...

Why do you think that Charles' parents would have thought he was too young to marry at 25? They were 21 and 26 when they married.

 

[Leopoldine]

That "young virgin" herself soon forgot her own solemn vows anyway...

More or less it all seems to boil down to Lord Louis Mountbatten, the 1st Earl Mountbatten of Burma, who thought Camilla -however impressed with her charm as well- was "not sufficiently aristocratic" to marry The Prince of Wales.

From her mother's side Camilla certainly has "posh enough" ancestry with the Barons Ashcombe, the Earls of Albemarle, the Baronets Edmonstone, the Lords Keppel and the clan MacNab.

It remains a "what if?" question. What if Lord Louis had said to his protégé Charles: "go for it!".

Mountbatten is also the one who told the press that Charles was "hopping" in and out of bed all the time with girls.

 

[Denville]

Why do you think that Charles' parents would have thought he was too young to marry at 25? They were 21 and 26 when they married.

Different times. I think that Charles was obviously a lot less mature than Philip... he was a bit of a late starter with girls, and I would say that the Q and Philip, since Press attention on the RF was much more manic and intrusive by the 70s would want to be sure that he had sown his wild oats, got to know about girls, and so on and was ready to settle down. He himself seems to have had the same feeling, in saying that he thougth that 30 was a good time to settle down.

 

[Lady Nimue]

and that she believed she could win his love and even if he wasn't 100% faithful, he would love her best and tone down his womanising.

He married Camilla because he loved her, she had already 'won' his love. They were a match. If someone understands love as being exclusive it will be well-nigh impossible to appreciate those who view love as inclusive.

And I think that when she was married to him, the womanising didn't stop, and she found it harder to cope with than she had expected.

She coped fine in my view, and would likely still be married to him had not The Princess of Wales decided to 'out' her as Charles' mistress. What she couldn't cope with, and her marriage did not survive, was the press intrusion. Sad story.

Different times. I think that Charles was obviously a lot less mature than Philip... he was a bit of a late starter with girls, and I would say that the Q and Philip, since Press attention on the RF was much more manic and intrusive by the 70s would want to be sure that he had sown his wild oats, got to know about girls, and so on and was ready to settle down. He himself seems to have had the same feeling, in saying that he thougth that 30 was a good time to settle down.

Charles was a sensitive introvert, that does not translate to 'less mature'. Quite the reverse imo. He was potentially a far more subtle thinker, with deeper feelings than his father who has his sun in Gemini (mother's Taurus single-mindedness is not 'maturity'). Charles is a Scorpio. As stated in an on-line bio: "The center of an active social list, he was tall, fit, tanned and a great catch. Women were available and he took his pick, always maintaining discretion."

It's fun to do the astrology.

 

[Curryong]

I too am an amateur astrologist, for over thirty years, have read hundreds of charts over the decades and I do get different things from Charles's chart than you obviously do.

Anyway, It was Charles who 'outed' Camilla PB, in the Dimbleby interview on TV, in June 1994. Following that public humiliation Andrew Parker Bowles ultimately began divorce proceedings (though of course he had known about the affair.) Diana's Panorama interview, in which she made the comment about 'three in the marriage' but didn't mention Camilla by name, occurred in November 1995.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/prince-of-wales-mistress-to-divorce-1567448.html

 

[Iluvbertie]

Charles only confirmed what was already public knowledge about Camilla. He knew he couldn't lie about it. The rumours had been around for over a decade by then and the tapes were also in the public domain so hard to say 'nope' with the evidence already out there.

Diana first hinted at an ongoing affair in the Morton book and the press went looking although some had already mentioned her name even before the Morton book.

 

[Curryong]

It wasn't the Princess of Wales who 'named and shamed' Camilla to the general public however as Lady Nimue stated. It was Charles's Dimbleby interview and the Camillagate tapes that brought Camilla to public view, not the Morton book in which she isn't named as Charles's lover. It also spurred the PB divorce.

 

[Denville]

Diana DID out the affair Curry. It was not expliclity stated in Morton but it was made clear, Due to libel laws Morton had to be careful what he said but he made it quite obvious. Its true there were rumours about Camilla, but Diana's book confirmed that the Wales marriage was on the rocks...

 

[Osipi]

One thing that remained consistent though from the early years is that even today, Charles, Camilla, Anne and Andrew Parker-Bowles remain close friends and are often seen with each other. Those friendships have survived all the ups and downs and the twists and turns of life.

For me, this is something that shows relationships between these people went a lot deeper than just bed hopping and sordid affairs and drama as you'd expect to see on some reality show. In some respects, it makes it easier for me to understand just how close knit Charles' inner circle of friends were and to a newly wed young bride, finding a niche where she belonged in it was a huge, daunting prospect and she mostly could have felt like an outsider looking in.

I know that even I would find it uncomfortable to be married to someone who had an already existing close circle of friends that I found not only totally different from myself but one my husband felt very at home with. It helps me to understand why Di had a huge "me vs. them" attitude when it came to Charles' free time and his friends.

 

[Denville]

One thing that remained consistent though from the early years is that even today, Charles, Camilla, Anne and Andrew Parker-Bowles remain close friends and are often seen with each other. Those friendships have survived all the ups and downs and the twists and turns of life.

.

I know that even I would find it uncomfortable to be married to someone who had an already existing close circle of friends that I found not only totally different from myself but one my husband felt very at home with. It helps me to understand why Di had a huge "me vs. them" attitude when it came to Charles' free time and his friends.

well that's true I suppose. But at the time Diana was young, Charles was the POW, and he was the senior one and it was felt that she had to adapt to his life. I don't think he was trying to stop her seeing her own friends but he did problably expect her to try to get on with HIS set of friends. It rather shows that it was not a case of EVil Diana V Good Charles OR Evil Chas V Good Diana but just a group of people who make mistakes, do things wrong and struggle, like most of us do. I think that Charles and Cam had a lot In common, had a long history, and were close... and while I'm sure Charles has lost some friends in his life, he has a set who stick with him. HOw much is because of his position one can't say..

 

[JessRulz]

Posts discussing the new Camilla biography by Penny Junor have been moved to a new thread in the Royal Library:
http://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...r-2017-the-duchess-of-cornwall-bio-42545.html

Several posts discussing the relationship between Charles and Diana have been moved to the following thread:
http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f38/charles-and-diana-2444-122.html

Please keep this thread to the early years of Charles and Camilla's relationship - rehashing of the Charles-Diana-Camilla triangle will be deleted. It's all been said before, numerous times.

 

[Dee Anna]

At the risk of going off-topic, Charles and Camilla were always a bit of an item! It was always there. Regardless of when the physical relationship resumed, far more potent was the emotional one. Diana got that.

 

[Curryong]

They started dating when Andrew was away, though, in Northern Ireland, I think. And when he returned Camilla resumed her pursuit of him. She was in love with Andrew, to her mother and siblings' mystification and was determined that they would marry.

 

[Denville]

I think she was realistic and also in love with Andrew. She may have had a fondness for Charles and liked his company and his being a more gentle sensitive type than APB, but she knew that she would not get permission to marry him. And she herself possibly wasn't as "turned on" by him then as she was by her "bad boy" Andy. he was more of a challenge.