Charles and Camilla - The Early Years (1970s)

[COUNTESS]

Charles and Camilla tried to include Diana, how lovely. She was to be his wife and became his wife, there should not have been any C&C tried to include. Camilla should have been excluded, Charles, missed that, too. So the mess. C& C were more than friends. I have male friends, close ones, but we all know the bounderies. This was more than platonic friendship. Which gave Charles just the ship to leap to when the going got tough. That C&C really love each other is quite true. I think she also serves as his mother, but that is another discussion. The saddest part to this story is that they should have married young and left less mess behind. I know that part if not their fault.

[Skydragon]

Originally Posted by COUNTESS

Charles and Camilla tried to include Diana, how lovely.

You seem to have misunderstood my post. It said Charles' friends, male and female tried to include Diana.

[sthreats]

Originally Posted by Skydragon

You also make some good points. Charles & Camilla's friends were friends of long standing and IMO made every effort to try to include Diana. That becomes harder when the 'newcomer' doesn't like the same things. All of them rode, Diana could barely sit on a horse, they all hunted, you need to be a reasonably good rider for that, all had dogs, Diana didn't like them, country life in general whereas Diana preferred London. It requires a great deal of effort by all parties and with very little in common, I don't think there could be great hope of any long friendships being started.

It seems to me that the one of the reasons we can never agree on CC is that many don't believe that adult men and women can be best friends without something else going on. It is hard to accept for the first 7 years of Camilla's marriage while Andrew was running around that she stayed "just friends" with her best male friend. Diana didn't buy it and as much as I like Camilla I don't either. And while I understand that he had been a bachelor for 12 years and had 'a group', once Prince Charles married Diana really should have come first.-She can't ride teach her, try to find things to do in common. This failure in their marriage has little to do with Camilla. Both Diana and Charles were selfish and not willing to change for each other.

But back to the friend thing, IMO and experience, men and women can be friends from a distance-What I mean is, it is not wise to confide my marital problems and disappointments to my male friends and vice versa-these long talks and long walks can lead to disaster.

By the way My husband disagrees-"you know that year (22years ago) when we broke up in college-we were friends for a year then we got engaged." That's not a friend that's hanging around with your ex

[ysbel]

Originally Posted by sthreats

It seems to me that the one of the reasons we can never agree on CC is that many don't believe that adult men and women can be best friends without something else going on.

Men and women can be good friends even best friends without a sexual relationship. But I do agree that confiding your marriage problems to close friends of the opposite sex can lead to temptation. Emotional intimacy can lead to physical intimacy.

The original question though was whether Charles and Camilla were in love with each other when he married Diana. I don't think so based on what I know of Charles before Diana. I think its more probable that Camilla was one of Charles' many friends at that time because he did keep his friends (male and female) for a long time and that their relationship got emotionally intense when both of their marriages broke down. Then they were ripe for temptation. Should they have known better? Sure. But this, I believe, was long after Charles' marriage vows. Remember, Camilla was one of several of Charles' closest best friends. She just happened to be the only one in a wreck of a marriage. I think the fact that both were in a wreck of a marriage fueled the emotionally intimacy that made them ripe for an affair, though I may be but guessing.

Originally Posted by skydragon

I can't see it as a test, it was the natural exuberance of a man in a new relationship including his new partner in the group. What else could he do, friends are a known quantity, a constant within your life, you don't suddenly just drop them.

I agree with you and I totally saw that Charles was not going to drop his circle of friends for any love interest, even a wife. But even though I don't think he saw his friends as a test for his new wife, in reality, I think his friends were a daunting test to any new wife of his. Unbeknownst to himself, Charles was setting up any serious love interest of his to get their acceptance and they were a tough crowd.

[Monika_]

I totally agree with Countess.

Once Charles made his choice, Camilla should have bowed out like any halfway respectable woman. And no, you don't automatically drop everyone one you know when you become engaged, BUT friendships/relationships have a natural way of evolving to allow for the bride and groom-to-be to become each other's priority. I believe Charles was quite naive in thinking he could have it both ways and Camilla knew she had a hold on him and she knew what she was doing.

[Monika_]

Thanks for the feedback on the marriage blessings.

The reason I raised that question is because when I watched the live coverage on television, several of the journalists who were covering the ceremony said that Charles and Camilla were basically 'forced' to do this in an attempt to appease all the people for whom this was not seen as a welcome match.

I suppose we can debate that for a long time to come, but the fact is that the words could not have been more appropriate. Just my opinion, of course.

[COUNTESS]

Oh, yes, men and women, certainly, can be friends. But these friends had already slept with one another and reached another plateau. I, also, don't consider Charles naive. Selfish and spoiled. I don't think he gave much thought on how he would fit into his new, very young bride's life, but how she would fit into his. Mistresses were part and parcel of his world, so, he never really had to consider the alternatives, until Diana turned into a shrew. Then he used his righteous contempt for her actions and found a warm bed, quickly. It was always there.

[Monika_]

Originally Posted by COUNTESS

Oh, yes, men and women, certainly, can be friends. But these friends had already slept with one another and reached another plateau. I, also, don't consider Charles naive. Selfish and spoiled. I don't think he gave much thought on how he would fit into his new, very young bride's life, but how she would fit into his. Mistresses were part and parcel of his world, so, he never really had to consider the alternatives, until Diana turned into a shrew. Then he used his righteous contempt for her actions and found a warm bed, quickly. It was always there.

Countess, I also read that Camilla invited Diana to lunch shortly after she and Charles got engaged. Camilla asked Diana if she planned to hunt after she and Charles were married. Since this is an activity Camilla and Charles shared a passion for, I rather doubt she was considering buying a new saddle for Diana as a welcome to the neighborhood gift. Lol!!!!!!!

[Elspeth]

Could we please get this thread back on topic? We're trying to not have it become another CCD eternal-triangle blame game.

Thank you.

Elspeth
British Royals moderator

[COUNTESS]

You are right Elspeth, but it is very hard to separate. Most ofd these topics lead to the same sorry road.

[Skydragon]

Originally Posted by ysbel

Men and women can be good friends even best friends without a sexual relationship. But I do agree that confiding your marriage problems to close friends of the opposite sex can lead to temptation. Emotional intimacy can lead to physical intimacy.

Mr S had better watch out then, I could earn an absolute fortune by revealing the confidences of HIS friends to me. Sometimes men and women need someone of the opposite sex to confide in. It's far easier to admit your wife finds you below muster in the bed department to a close female friend, than to admit that to your male friends. It is also easier to accept a friendship hug from an opposite sex friend, rather than a same sex friend for many people, even now. 30-40 odd years ago it was positively frowned upon.

I agree with you and I totally saw that Charles was not going to drop his circle of friends for any love interest, even a wife. But even though I don't think he saw his friends as a test for his new wife, in reality, I think his friends were a daunting test to any new wife of his. Unbeknownst to himself, Charles was setting up any serious love interest of his to get their acceptance and they were a tough crowd.

How many of us really thought, when introducing our shiny new partner to 'our' in crowd, whether or not they would fit in, we presume that our friends will see all the wonderful things we can see about him/her and that he/she will see what wonderful, loyal friends they have been.

[Duchess]

it's interesting that people say camilla was interested in the man and not the prince. i'm not saying that people who feel this way are wrong but even at the best of times charles and his handlers can't separate the two so how could camilla. he was born into this life so separating the two would be impossible. his sense of entitlement IS his personality because it's all he knows, people have given in to this his entire life. i don't think camilla separated the two in so much as she knew how to handle charles in a way that he was comfortable with.

[Skydragon]

Originally Posted by Duchess

it's interesting that people say camilla was interested in the man and not the prince. i'm not saying that people who feel this way are wrong but even at the best of times charles and his handlers can't separate the two so how could camilla. he was born into this life so separating the two would be impossible. his sense of entitlement IS his personality because it's all he knows, people have given in to this his entire life. i don't think camilla separated the two in so much as she knew how to handle charles in a way that he was comfortable with.

I think it is perfectly feasible. There are people in real life that you meet, you get on well with and then you invite them to your home. Some can't handle it and become obsequious, others take a breath and realise that they befriended you, the person. The former it is best to distance yourself from, the latter are rare and to be treasured.

That is why, as one of the people who has said Camilla loved the man, not the Prince, I stand by my remark.

[sthreats]

Originally Posted by Skydragon

That is why, as one of the people who has said Camilla loved the man, not the Prince, I stand by my remark.

I agree that she loved the man but what doesn't make sense is this: Why would you get engaged in March to an ex with a known roving eye when you just said your goodbyes to your boyfriend at the beginning of Feb?Doesn't add up. My references are Dimbleby and Brandeth

[CasiraghiTrio]

Originally Posted by Skydragon

I think it is perfectly feasible. There are people in real life that you meet, you get on well with and then you invite them to your home. Some can't handle it and become obsequious, others take a breath and realise that they befriended you, the person. The former it is best to distance yourself from, the latter are rare and to be treasured.

That is why, as one of the people who has said Camilla loved the man, not the Prince, I stand by my remark.

I agree more with Duchess. The man and the role go together. The role is part of his identity. It all overlaps too much to be distinguished. And Camilla probably loves all of Charles, not just a segment, so saying she loves Charles and not Prince Charles doesn't make much sense, imo.

[Skydragon]

Originally Posted by sthreats

I agree that she loved the man but what doesn't make sense is this: Why would you get engaged in March to an ex with a known roving eye when you just said your goodbyes to your boyfriend at the beginning of Feb?Doesn't add up. My references are Dimbleby and Brandeth

Yes, that is a puzzle, a rebound perhaps? It all seemed a tad hasty.

Originally Posted by CasiraghiTrio

The man and the role go together. The role is part of his identity. It all overlaps too much to be distinguished. And Camilla probably loves all of Charles, not just a segment, so saying she loves Charles and not Prince Charles doesn't make much sense, imo

I think you may have misunderstood. Camilla loves all of Charles, that is probably true but what I was saying is the she didn't 'love' the title and all that came with that. Many people perhaps can't separate the two, that is what made Camilla and many of Charles' friends unique.

Put it like this, If someone happens to be a mortician, to some they couldn't entertain a friendship or relationship with them, but to others it wouldn't make any difference, because they 'see' the man/woman, not the job.

[Monika_]

While I don't dispute that Camilla loved/loves Charles--not at all--let's not suggest that she had to look past all the extras to 'see' the man. He's hardly a mortician. Lol!!

[Monika_]

Originally Posted by sthreats

I agree that she loved the man but what doesn't make sense is this: Why would you get engaged in March to an ex with a known roving eye when you just said your goodbyes to your boyfriend at the beginning of Feb?Doesn't add up. My references are Dimbleby and Brandeth

Camilla could not have married Charles back then. She did not pass the future Queen test. She had a 'past', etc. She ended up doing what many others have done...she went after the next best match available to her. Yes, it was quick, but it was also an acknowledgment on her part of the reality of the situation.

[Monika_]

Originally Posted by Duchess

it's interesting that people say camilla was interested in the man and not the prince. i'm not saying that people who feel this way are wrong but even at the best of times charles and his handlers can't separate the two so how could camilla. he was born into this life so separating the two would be impossible. his sense of entitlement IS his personality because it's all he knows, people have given in to this his entire life. i don't think camilla separated the two in so much as she knew how to handle charles in a way that he was comfortable with.

In a word...YES!

[Skydragon]

Originally Posted by Monika_

He's hardly a mortician. Lol!!

I was trying to explain in a 'simplified way', unfortunately, even now, it is possible you have misunderstood.