Camilla and The Public

[eya]

Done ever a poll for whom they prefer as king after the Queen?
Charles or William?

I do not think at all irrelevant if someone had been kind enough to tell me some results would appreciate.

So whatever poll say Charles when become King give Camilla any titlte he want. Right?

 

[muriel]

Done ever a poll for whom they prefer as king after the Queen?
Charles or William?

Completely irrelevant, IMO, though the poll has been done many a time.

 

[muriel]

I do not think at all irrelevant if someone had been kind enough to tell me some results would appreciate.

It is not relevant as there will be no choice. Barring death or revolution, Charles will be the next King.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I do not think at all irrelevant if someone had been kind enough to tell me some results would appreciate.

William would be the last willing to bypass his father because it is gambling with his own throne. What as a young, handsome and dashy George becomes popular and "the public" wants him on the throne? The royals keep wisely deaf for these nonsense polls.

 

[amaryllus]

Polling is all completely irrelevant... Whether People want William instead of Charles or Camilla not to be called queen. I am fairly sure and so are they there will be no storming the gates and calling for the end if the monarchy( except from usual sources naturally) so They are going to do what they want when all is said and done.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

So whatever poll say Charles when become King give Camilla any titlte he want. Right?

In principle yes. Queen Elizabeth created her husband a British Prince in his own right. Queen Victoria created her husband with the title "The Prince Consort". So when the King wants Camilla be known with a certain title, he can issue a Letters Patent.

 

[Osipi]

So whatever poll say Charles when become King give Camilla any titlte he want. Right?

They could take a bazillion polls but none of them would have any effect on what happens when Charles becomes King. Charles as King will have the prerogative to issue letters patent creating Camilla a princess of the UK in her own right as Queen Elizabeth did for her husband or there are several other speculations on what could happen.

Polls are good to somewhat keep a finger on the pulse of public opinion but they do not have any bearing on the way things are done.

 

[Winnie]

So whatever poll say Charles when become King give Camilla any titlte he want. Right?

Correct. Polls are not a legal document, just an opinion. Plus, depending on the area in which the poll was taken plus the number of people asked, many different results. Some polls ask 2000 people while others 20,000. Some poll only large city dwellers, others farmer and small villages. Some living in London and south, others Manchester to Scottish boarder. Polls, like anything else, can be made to slant results in favor of a certain position. It would be interesting if the question were put on the voting ballet to be answered the day of nationwide election for entire country. That would be interesting, still not law, but full country's opinion . I personally do not dwell on any poll not asked of over a half million since America has a population of over 330 million. Discounting children, that would give a slight view. The professional poll taker here in America swear that they can interview 200 people across country and accurately give poll results. What a crock. They don't even have a 40% rating record. Plus, I know people that will not truthfully give their preferences to poll takers as they feel it is none of their business. They will even lie on election day when asked who they voted for to exit pollers. To many college voters, it is a game. So don't take to heart that polls are 100% accurate, not so.

 

[royal rob]

I don't understand but I'm sure you all will be able to tell me, why isn't Phillip King if Camilla will became Queen ? and I hope it's not because a King is higher than a Queen


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[padams2359]

I don't understand but I'm sure you all will be able to tell me, why isn't Phillip King if Camilla will became Queen ? and I hope it's not because a King is higher than a Queen


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Basically. Phillip of Spain was known as a King because he was King of Spain, not because he was married to Mary.

 

[royal rob]

Basically. Phillip of Spain was known as a King because he was King of Spain, not because he was married to Mary.

So why would Camila be Queen just because she is married to King Charles surely that's outdated


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[Skippyboo]

Per UK common law, wife takes the style and title from husband. The husband doesn't take style and title from wife.

So Kate married William and becomes HRH Duchess of Cambridge. Mark Phillips marries Princess Anne remains Mark Phillips. The Queen's father gave a HRH and the Duke of Edinburgh title to Philip when he married Elizabeth. Elizabeth is the Duchess of Edinburgh still. The Queen later made Philip a Prince of the UK just like Victoria made Albert a Prince of the UK.

Charles can make Camilla a Princess of the UK too but she is also the female equivalent of his titles too. So she is Queen to his King whether she uses it or not. The Govt would have to get involved to legal remove the title.


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[royalistbert]

So why would Camila be Queen just because she is married to King Charles surely that's outdated


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Because it is precedent and all the monarchies in Europe with reigning King have a Queen. Camilla will look like a real outsider as a Princess consort.

 

[TLLK]

I disagree. IMHO Camilla will be treated in the same manner as any other consort no matter what her title is during Charles' reign.

 

[Honeybees]

Per UK common law, wife takes the style and title from husband. The husband doesn't take style and title from wife.

So Kate married William and becomes HRH Duchess of Cambridge. Mark Phillips marries Princess Anne remains Mark Phillips. The Queen's father gave a HRH and the Duke of Edinburgh title to Philip when he married Elizabeth. Elizabeth is the Duchess of Edinburgh still. The Queen later made Philip a Prince of the UK just like Victoria made Albert a Prince of the UK.

Charles can make Camilla a Princess of the UK too but she is also the female equivalent of his titles too. So she is Queen to his King whether she uses it or not. The Govt would have to get involved to legal remove the title.


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As per the changes made prior to Prince George's birth, I am not sure that is the situation. I would need to check the legislation.

I don't understand but I'm sure you all will be able to tell me, why isn't Phillip King if Camilla will became Queen ? and I hope it's not because a King is higher than a Queen


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. I like your thinking. It is a very interesting point.

Per UK common law, wife takes the style and title from husband. The husband doesn't take style and title from wife.

So Kate married William and becomes HRH Duchess of Cambridge. Mark Phillips marries Princess Anne remains Mark Phillips. The Queen's father gave a HRH and the Duke of Edinburgh title to Philip when he married Elizabeth. Elizabeth is the Duchess of Edinburgh still. The Queen later made Philip a Prince of the UK just like Victoria made Albert a Prince of the UK.

Charles can make Camilla a Princess of the UK too but she is also the female equivalent of his titles too. So she is Queen to his King whether she uses it or not. The Govt would have to get involved to legal remove the title.


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. My understanding is that there is legally no such thing in English Law as a 'common law wife' or 'common law husband.' Nor is there any legal obligation for a wife to take her husbands name. I could be wrong but that is my understanding.

Per UK common law, wife takes the style and title from husband. The husband doesn't take style and title from wife.

So Kate married William and becomes HRH Duchess of Cambridge. Mark Phillips marries Princess Anne remains Mark Phillips. The Queen's father gave a HRH and the Duke of Edinburgh title to Philip when he married Elizabeth. Elizabeth is the Duchess of Edinburgh still. The Queen later made Philip a Prince of the UK just like Victoria made Albert a Prince of the UK.

Charles can make Camilla a Princess of the UK too but she is also the female equivalent of his titles too. So she is Queen to his King whether she uses it or not. The Govt would have to get involved to legal remove the title.


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Did the British Government get involved to remove The then HRH Princess of Wales, HRH? Were they consulted in the change of title, removal of HRH? I did a quick Hansards check and see mention?

 

[Iluvbertie]

There is no legal obligation to use a husband's name - true.


However there is a clear cut difference between the fact that a wife can take on her husbands styles and titles but the reverse isn't the case. A wife can't raise a husband in status automatically but a husband can raise a wife.


Even with the changes to the Succession to the Crown Act - had George and Charlotte been born the other way round, George's wife would automatically become a Princess while Charlotte's husband would have to be given a title etc by new LPs. As things currently stand, given the most recent precedents when Charlotte marries, if her husband doesn't have a title in his own right then he won't get one but George's wife will become HRH Princess George and any other titles he may have at the same time e.g. Duke of Hogwarts.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

His Royal Highness is no title but a form of address, like His Eminence, His Excellency, His Grace, etc. It is connected to the position. Diana could be addressed with her husband's titles and form of address. When she ended to be his spouse, logically also her husband's titles and form of address ended. So nothing was "removed" as also nothing was "given" to her. Her form of address was an automatism connected to her position as married wife to the holder of these titles. This ended with the break-up of said marriage.

 

[ladongas]

We don't know when it will happen, or what will happen when it does happen

Right now, all we know is what the PoW/CH announced- "It is intended that The Duchess will be known as HRH The Princess Consort when The Prince of Wales accedes to The Throne..."

Let's assume that Charles has acceded. What does he say? If he "makes" Camilla Queen, what should he say? Should he explain why he made the intended comment in 2005? Will he need to say why he changed his mind? Or was part of the 'deal' with HM or the CoE that Camilla could never be Queen?

If the Princess Consort plan goes forward, he still has a lengthy time before the Coronation to change his mind, depending on the mood of the British public. When polls are taken- and they will be- it should be very plain what his subjects want. Then he can decide.

 

[Honeybees]

His Royal Highness is no title but a form of address, like His Eminence, His Excellency, His Grace, etc. It is connected to the position. Diana Spence could be addressed with her husband's titles and form of address. When she ended to be his spouse, logically also her husband's titles and form of address ended. So nothing was "removed" as also nothing was "given" to her. Her style was an automatism connected to her position as married wife to the holder of these titles. Her style ended when said marriage ended.

I believe that Lady Diana Spencer did not need to marry to have a title, my understanding is that she acquired one when her late father became an Earl on the death of his father. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

His Royal Highness is no title but a form of address, like His Eminence, His Excellency, His Grace, etc. It is connected to the position. Diana could be addressed with her husband's titles and form of address. When she ended to be his spouse, logically also her husband's titles and form of address ended. So nothing was "removed" as also nothing was "given" to her. Her form of address was an automatism connected to her position as married wife to the holder of these titles. This ended with the break-up of said marriage.

I am not sure the legal team involved took the same view, my understanding is that it was quite some sticking point in negotiations and obviously post divorce she was referred to as Diana, Princess of Wales. Again please if I am wrong let me know but I remember was it Mishon R & Co. who represented her handing out the press statement post the decree absolute. Am I wrong?

 

[Roslyn]

I believe that Lady Diana Spencer did not need to marry to have a title, my understanding is that she acquired one when her late father became an Earl on the death of his father. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

As daughter of an earl, Diana was entitled to be known as Lady Diana Spencer, but it was a courtesy title only, acquired because of her relationship to her father, not a title in her own right.

 

[Skippyboo]

The Lady of Lady Diana Spencer is a courtesy title for the daughters of a Earl or above. It's only good for the person using it. It isn't passed down.

Charles doesn't have to do anything to make Camilla Queen. He already did it by marrying her. So when Elizabeth dies and Charles is still alive and Camilla is still married to Charles. She is the Queen Consort automatically


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[Duc_et_Pair]

I believe that Lady Diana Spencer did not need to marry to have a title, my understanding is that she acquired one when her late father became an Earl on the death of his father. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Also Lady is no title but a form of address for a daughter of an Earl. Before that Diana had the form of address for a daughter of a Viscount: The Honourable.

The only one in the Spencer family whom holds a title of peerage is the Earl Spencer, who is also Viscount Althorp (that secondary title is used by his eldest son).

 

[Honeybees]

In principle yes. Queen Elizabeth created her husband a British Prince in his own right. Queen Victoria created her husband with the title "The Prince Consort". So when the King wants Camilla be known with a certain title, he can issue a Letters Patent.

. I believe that The then King after consultation with the then Prime Minister made the decision regarding Prince Phillips title post marriage to Princess Elizabeth and that prior to her coronation Princess Elizabeth discussed titles for Prince Philip with the then British Prime Minister. The British Royal Family are not autocrat's, it is my understanding that post The Magna Charta they lost quite a bit of power and The British Government as voted by the British public on their opinion of potential M.P's, on occasion advise H.M. The British public could decide that they no longer want a Royal family or as we seen with Scotland they can ask for a vote regarding their status with the U.K. Again I could be very wrong.

 

[Winnie]

As daughter of an earl, Diana was entitled to be known as Lady Diana Spencer, but it was a courtesy title only, acquired because of her relationship to her father, not a title in her own right.

You are correct, "Lady" Diana was only a courtesy.

 

[Roslyn]

So why would Camila be Queen just because she is married to King Charles surely that's outdated

Of course it's outdated. Sexist and outdated. It is this way because of coverture: the doctrine that on marriage a woman's rights and identity were subsumed by those of her husband. She got to share his styles and titles because she was legally considered part of him...the lesser part.

I've rattled on about coverture at length here before. I won't do it again now, but look it up. It will make any woman with feminist notions of equality cringe, and maybe spit and hiss a bit and even throw things.

 

[Honeybees]

Also Lady is no title but a form of address for a daughter of an Earl. Before that Diana had the form of address for a daughter of a Viscount: The Honourable.

The only one in the Spencer family whom holds a title of peerage is the Earl Spencer, who is also Viscount Althorp (that secondary title is used by his eldest son).

I will have a flick through Burke's peerage and get back to yourself. I am correct however that at the time of her marriage she was styled, Lady Diana Spencer?

You are correct, "Lady" Diana was only a courtesy.

But isn't it correct that as long as one does not intend to defraud, under English law one can change one's title to Lady or indeed anything else by Deedpoll?

Its a very interesting point and I will check it out the first chance I get.

 

[royal rob]

Sounds like Charles becoming King would be a good time to change things IMO


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[Honeybees]

Perhaps the Private Members Bill going through Parliament will change things?

Sounds like Charles becoming King would be a good time to change things IMO


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Royal Rob, you never know but The Elected Government and House of Lords may change things prior to any future Coronation.

 

[Cris M]

Sounds like Charles becoming King would be a good time to change things IMO


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Change what? No more Queen consorts? So Catherine will not be Queen as well, nor will George's wife. Or things should be changed just for the duration of the reign of King Charles III?

 

[Skippyboo]

At time of wedding Lady Diana Spencer. Look at Margaret children to as example. Earl Snowdon son David Armstrong Jones uses the courtesy title of Viscount Linley. His daughter is Lady Sarah Armstrong Jones. Both children marry and have kids. Lady Sarah marries Daniel Chatto becomes Lady Sarah Chatto. Kids Arthur and Samuel Chatto. David married Serena. She takes his courtesy title becomes Vicountess Linley. Kids Honorable Charles and Margarita Armstrong Jones.

When Earl Snowdon dies, David becomes Earl Snowdon, his wife countess, Charles uses the courtesy title of Viscount Linley, Margarita becomes Lady Margarita. The Chattos stay the same.

The monarch determines who has a HRH and is a princess or Prince. The monarch also creates peerages. So it was Elizabeth who amended George V's Letters Patent to make Charlotte a HRH Princess by issuing her LPs without them she is Lady Charlotte Mountbatten Windsor until Charles becomes King. The Queen made Prince William Duke of Cambridge on his wedding day but common law made Catherine Middleton HRH Duchess of Cambridge.


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