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  #1021  
Old 10-10-2015, 03:58 AM
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Don't underestimate the automatism of rallying around the new King and his family in the sad event of a departure of Queen Elizabeth II. When the officers-of-arms and the heralds in their impressive uniforms assemble at St James' Palace (or other residences), preceded by a triumphant ceremonial fanfare, and solemnly proclaim that Prince Charles is now the rightful King, then a page will be turned.

There is a new King. He leads the nation into mourning. His son becomes the Duke of Cornwall and Rothesay. Together with the other family members the new royal family will appear there, at that famous balcony and the British will embrace them, feel with them and join them into mourning and wish the new King well. Camilla is an organic part of the new King's life and -as the First Lady- will become of so much more prominence, so much different as now, in the shadow of other royals. She will be as visible as Prince Philip now, always sit next to the King, be the Lady of the House at State Banquets, name it all. She has every chance to become a sort of "Princess Lilian of Sweden"-figure: a most beloved "auntie". Mark my words.
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  #1022  
Old 10-10-2015, 07:48 AM
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Princess Lilian of Sweden led an honourable life in Sweden after her divorce in England, while her future husband did his duty by his young nephew. Bertil wasn't married and Lilian played no part in breaking up the marriage of one of the most popular married-in royals of modern times.

There is a great difference between playing a prominent role on the national stage and being popular with its people. I have no doubt that as the King's consort Camilla will be more to the fore than she is now. That's no guarantee of popularity, however, especially when there are younger senior royals who are considered more appealing by media and the public.
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  #1023  
Old 10-10-2015, 11:49 AM
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If you isolate the Duchess today from her fairly distant past, what does she currently do that bothers the public? Why not like her?
She's not dowdy, but she does not overspend on clothes. Her dress is age appropriate and her hair is flattering and dependable rather than trendy. She supports Charles in very visible ways and seems to have made him happier as we see him at public events. People that know her say she is a loyal chum, has a nice sense of humor and is not at all offensive. She adores dogs, seems to have a way with children and will gamely try all the silly things she gets asked to do at events. Her demeanor with the rest of the RF is always positive, calm and appropriate for her place in the Order of Precedence. She does not fuss with her hair and is able to stand/sit at events with calm and grace.
If you judge her for her contribution today, I think she comes up a winner. And if people want to hold a grudge, they will, whatever she does today. But I do think the grudge holders are increasingly in the minority.
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  #1024  
Old 10-10-2015, 11:56 AM
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I think it's pretty clear why she's disliked, and her poll numbers reflect this, as do the numbers who do not want her to become Queen Consort.
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  #1025  
Old 10-10-2015, 12:12 PM
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As has been stated MANY times before, Monarchy is not a popularity contest.. in short it isn't 'X Factor'..

If the Prince of Wales wishes his wife to enjoy her legal rights as Queen Consort [if that is 'non negotiable' for him] then she WILL be.. only time will tell, but as Duc et Pair states, it would be wrong to underestimate the effect on public opinion that might be wrought by the present Queens death, and how it is likely swing behind the new monarch, making any attempt to downgrade his wife, and helpmeet seem as petty and retrograde looking as they really are.
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  #1026  
Old 10-10-2015, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyevale View Post
As has been stated MANY times before, Monarchy is not a popularity contest.. in short it isn't 'X Factor'..

If the Prince of Wales wishes his wife to enjoy her legal rights as Queen Consort [if that is 'non negotiable' for him] then she WILL be.. only time will tell, but as Duc et Pair states, it would be wrong to underestimate the effect on public opinion that might be wrought by the present Queens death, and how it is likely swing behind the new monarch, making any attempt to downgrade his wife, and helpmeet seem as petty and retrograde looking as they really are.

Prince Charles made a vow to the British public when he got married that Camilla would be neither princess of Wales nor queen. So far, he's stuck to the first part of the vow and I don't see how he can possibly go back on his word when the time comes to deliver on the second part. The Camila fan club here on TRF should just accept it and let it go.
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  #1027  
Old 10-10-2015, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
just accept it and let it go.
In the most polite way i can muster.. NO !
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  #1028  
Old 10-10-2015, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Princess Lilian of Sweden led an honourable life in Sweden after her divorce in England, while her future husband did his duty by his young nephew. Bertil wasn't married and Lilian played no part in breaking up the marriage of one of the most popular married-in royals of modern times.

There is a great difference between playing a prominent role on the national stage and being popular with its people. I have no doubt that as the King's consort Camilla will be more to the fore than she is now. That's no guarantee of popularity, however, especially when there are younger senior royals who are considered more appealing by media and the public.
Didn't that woman take 50% credit for the breakup of her own marriage. If a couple divorces and each are to blame how can the public blame a third party.

I guess the people who are holding a grudge failed basic math.

And 1+1+1+1=4 not three.

50% + 50%=100%.
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  #1029  
Old 10-10-2015, 01:31 PM
eya eya is offline
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The Camilla will be the wife of King Charles. She become the first lady of the country. Now if in front of the Camilla is the Queen, the Princess or nothing has little importance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wyevale View Post
Not so. eya... the wives of our Kings have always been Queens.. and I want that to remain the case !
I believe I do. But if the Charles said that Camilla will not get the title of Queen how then will get back ?
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  #1030  
Old 10-10-2015, 01:35 PM
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Not so. eya... the wives of our Kings have always been Queens.. and I want that to remain the case !

Principally because she has weathered [beautifully] a storm of adversity and downright ABUSE from people who were 'not in her shoes', and because nowhere in this world does a second wife not take the title 'mrs' because of some misplaced consideration to her predecessor.. a second wife is not 'less' than a first...
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  #1031  
Old 10-10-2015, 01:58 PM
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If Elizabeth II said, in a speech [something like] 'when my son and his wife are King & Queen...' opposition would melt away and that unfortunate and hasty statement by the Princes OFFICE [not, by the Prince himself, please note] would be forgotten.
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  #1032  
Old 10-10-2015, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Prince Charles made a vow to the British public when he got married that Camilla would be neither princess of Wales nor queen. So far, he's stuck to the first part of the vow and I don't see how he can possibly go back on his word when the time comes to deliver on the second part. The Camila fan club here on TRF should just accept it and let it go.
I cannot recall Princes Charles "vowing" anything like this.

Can you give me the source of the "vow"?

Statements may be have been made, ie Camilla's preference to be known as Duchess of Cornwall but that is a very different.

She is Princess of Wales and she will be Queen (assuming Charles succeeds to the throne) - how she is styled is another matter.

I think this is a non-issue for the majority of the country. Some might not like it but there wont be any demonstrations in the streets over it.
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  #1033  
Old 10-10-2015, 06:07 PM
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There was no 'vow' or 'promise'. The wording was very clear:

a) she would use the title Duchess of Cornwall

b) the intention is that she will be known as Princess Consort

An intention is NOT a vow but a statement of what is probably or possibly going to happen. Intentions change all the time e.g. I intended to retire at 55 but am still working full-time a number of years later. Why did my 'intention' change - because circumstances change.

That could easily happen with the intention that Camilla will be known as the Princess Consort.

Regarding the Duchess of Cornwall title versus the Princess of Wales title - the PM of the day - when asked - made it clear that Camilla would be the Princess of Wales even though she would be using Duchess of Cornwall.

It should be noted that Charles has been Duke of Cornwall for longer than he has been Prince of Wales so it is the more 'senior' of his title in that sense.

As for the blame for the marriage - I put that down to two people who simply should never have married. Charles said he returned to Camilla after his marriage to Diana had 'irretrievably broken down, both of us having tried'. Diana herself took 50% of the blame for the breakdown so if Camilla played any part it would be less than either Charles or Diana as Diana took on 50% herself.

The people who blame Camilla do so because they can't put any blame on Diana - even though she herself took 50% - and they don't want to believe that Charles was telling the truth. Why, I don't know. Charles and Diana's stories tally with the happiness to begin with but the marriage over by 1984 - 1986. Charles, according to Diana, returned to Camilla about 1986 and that is when she also started her affair with Hewitt.

These people also refuse to move on and are stuck in events from a quarter of a century ago - and the fact that Diana died young - but that was as much her own fault as the driver's and the chasing photographers - she made poor decisions that night and paid with her life. That was nothing to do with Charles or with the BRF at all.
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  #1034  
Old 10-10-2015, 11:01 PM
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^ Actually Diana said that things were never the same following Harry's birth, which occurred in 1984 not 1986. She also stated that she felt then that Charles 'had gone back to his lady'.

However, it has been ten years of marriage and largely positive PR for Camilla, whether spun from Clarence House or from the tabloids. Ten years and she, according to the polls, (which are the only things we have to go on,) is still not fully accepted by the British public as far as her future role is concerned. Nor is she popular.

How do you explain this, other than her role in the breakup of Charles and Diana's marriage? If her non-acceptance is based on recent polling, that is a large percentage of British people who 'have refused to move on'. Even more worrying for Clarence House are the numbers of young people who can't even remember Diana but feel that she would have made a better Queen than Camilla.

It's not as if Charles is widely popular with the British public himself and is able to sweep Camilla along in his wake. He is regularly in the mid section of senior royals behind his mother and his sons/daughter in law. There are many factors to explain this, but one of them would certainly be his actions during his first marriage as perceived by the public.
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  #1035  
Old 10-10-2015, 11:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Princess Lilian of Sweden led an honourable life in Sweden after her divorce in England, while her future husband did his duty by his young nephew. Bertil wasn't married and Lilian played no part in breaking up the marriage of one of the most popular married-in royals of modern times.
If you are suggesting that Diana and Charles were popular as a couple, I'm confused. One just needs read the press reports from the mid to late 1980's to see that they were far from popular as a couple. Diana's behavior with Charles in public was an embarrassment. I could post the videos I have seen if you want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
There is a great difference between playing a prominent role on the national stage and being popular with its people. I have no doubt that as the King's consort Camilla will be more to the fore than she is now. That's no guarantee of popularity, however, especially when there are younger senior royals who are considered more appealing by media and the public.
You present a reality that is not shared by my British acquaintances. I have given up on TRF site when it comes to certain British royals, and Camilla is one such. There is a spin taking place here (a hammering away at a Diana vs Camilla scenario) that I just do not find justified in reality. Very sad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
^ Actually Diana said that things were never the same following Harry's birth, which occurred in 1984 not 1986. She also stated that she felt then that Charles 'had gone back to his lady'.
Of course the marriage wasn't the same, Diana had entered into what would be the longest running relationship with a man she would ever have, a man she admitted in public 'she adored' (James Hewitt). Diana had to have Charles 'go back to his lady' because otherwise she was the one who was adulterous first. It's a spin that is patently self-serving, with clear self-serving motives. Why Diana is believed in this regard is puzzling to me given what we know of Diana's relationship with the truth.

Why Diana, a clothes horse with a string of lovers, would be considered a 'better' queen than a woman who is steadfast in her loyalty to the monarchy with no ambition for herself, makes no sense. If anything, Diana would have continued to be an embarrassment to the BRF, what with her continuous ridicule of her husband, the heir to the throne, and her attempt to undermine his position and the monarchy itself. Color me confused.
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  #1036  
Old 10-11-2015, 12:04 AM
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At the start of the marriage they were a popular couple. Your view of the the marriage Charles affair and Diana is so different I can't begin to say. I lived though that time I know how I and others felt.
I won't go any further into it as I get to angry and will say too much. But if you weren't around during that time you really won't understand
It just goes round and round on this forum same old rubbish.
So all hammer away at me but I won't be reading it


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  #1037  
Old 10-11-2015, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by royal rob View Post
At the start of the marriage they were a popular couple. Your view of the the marriage Charles affair and Diana is so different I can't begin to say. I lived though that time I know how I and others felt.
I won't go any further into it as I get to angry and will say too much. But if you weren't around during that time you really won't understand. It just goes round and round on this forum same old rubbish. So all hammer away at me but I won't be reading it.
With that kind of reasoning no historian can write a valid biography, which we know is not true. Contemporaneous personal accounts in history are always prime sources, and valuable (I use such), but not always for illuminating the facts. More often they illuminate the tenor of the times. More often the biases and prejudices that underlie the controversies are revealed.

Also, that sort of brush-off doesn't work with me because I was around, albeit quite young (in the realm of William's and Harry's ages). Much of what I know actually came through my mother, who followed the BRF (I did not at that time but I was aware, and I have recently done a mound of reading over the summer). No hard feelings. I'm not interested in any tussles, either, because for me it is beyond feelings, it has to do with the reality of the sequence of events which we know a great deal more about now because of memoirs and all.

I think what is clear is there are people for whom the Diana story is very personal somehow. I think it is tragic in itself that the tragedy of Diana continues to rain down upon Camilla, who was only ever a friend to Diana, or tried to be. What happened later between Charles and Camilla is not relevant to Diana's misfortunes imo. Better to leave that drama in the past and move on. Happily, all of my British compadres seem to be of that opinion, too.

I think Camilla will be called Queen regardless. (Princess Consort sounds so Barbie-Doll'ish, rather ridiculous for such an older woman like Camilla. It would be disrespectful to the British Queen to be so called imo. More embarrassment for the institution, and doing so would just continually bring to mind the dysfunction of the Diana years). Just like Kate still gets called Kate despite wanting to be called Catherine, Camilla will be Queen Camilla in the tabloids, and beyond. Yep.
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  #1038  
Old 10-11-2015, 01:25 AM
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This thread is not about Diana. Please stay on topic.
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  #1039  
Old 10-11-2015, 04:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Prince Charles made a vow to the British public when he got married that Camilla would be neither princess of Wales nor queen. [....]
Did I miss that vow "to the British public" (whatever that means) ?
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  #1040  
Old 10-11-2015, 06:58 AM
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Actually, at the time, I believe the statement was that Camilla would be known as The Duchess of Cornwall and not the Princess of Wales. Being married to Charles, Camilla has the right to use the feminine form of any of Charles' titles.

Legally, Camilla is The Princess of Wales as she's married to The Prince of Wales.

When they married in 2005, I don't think Camilla was overly confident about taking on a full public workload and really would have liked to just remain in the background supporting Charles. With this in mind, that's probably why it was stated that it is intended that Camilla will be known as Princess Consort. As we've seen over the past 10 years, Camilla has adjusted quite well to her public role and both Charles and Camilla are very happy in their private lives also.
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