Was 'The Oval' in Althorp the right place to bury Diana?

[Jo of Palatine]

I am not convinced that Diana is buried on this island. While it seems to be a concept that is understood by her fans, I don't buy it that the current members of such an ancient family did something so "Hollywood-ish". Aristocrats bury their dogs on islands of ornamental lakes but not their sisters without at least a proper crypt.

I think Diana is buried in a coffin which is kept in the private chapel of Althorp which probably has a priest's annexe. Once the next Spencer dies and will be buried in the family crypt in the village church, her coffin will be discreetly added. If the Spencers who are buried there are mentioned somewhere through a plaque or something, they will probably put a plaque of "remembrance" next to her father's.

Just my idea, of course.

[Skydragon]

Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine

I am not convinced that Diana is buried on this island. While it seems to be a concept that is understood by her fans, I don't buy it that the current members of such an ancient family did something so "Hollywood-ish". Aristocrats bury their dogs on islands of ornamental lakes but not their sisters without at least a proper crypt. .

I thought the grave was lined in marble. Many of the MacDonald chieftens were buried on an island in Loch Leven (Ballachulish/Glencoe).

Spencer probably did it to make money, much better to have had her cremated and her ashes scattered to the wind, but that would not have made him any money at all.

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by Skydragon

I thought the grave was lined in marble. Many of the MacDonald chieftens were buried on an island in Loch Leven (Ballachulish/Glencoe).

Well, Diana was not a Scot, she was English. While I've been to Scotland several times and agree that a burial site on an island in a Scottish Loch is a very dignified place, I have completely different feelings when it comes to an artificial island in an ornamental lake which was landscaped in a time when faked ruins and pseudo-antique temples were very much à la mode. Mind, I love the English landscaped gardens and parks, but a part of their style is to have a pet graveyard somewhere with marble crypts for favorite dogs - and examples of this immediately come to my mind when I think of Diana on that island. Okay, there might be a bit of poetic justice to think of such a grave for someone who personally worked on digging a secret baby grave in a Royal garden in order to leave an unsolved mystery for future generations, but still - Diana as mother of a future king deserved a bit of decorum at least.

AFAIK there is nothing to give people a hint where she allegedly was buried
except that marble urn, but this urn is said to be somewhere else on the island and is only considered a symbol for the invisible (non-existant?) grave.

As for the MacDonalds - I wonder how the current chieftain feels about the fact that one of his clan is the mother of a future king as well and will probably one day be buried in a Royal grave in a Dansih cathedral....

[Skydragon]

Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine

.... part of their style is to have a pet graveyard somewhere with marble crypts for favorite dogs

Of course we have a specific area to bury our animals, or their ashes, what else would you do with them?

As for the MacDonalds - I wonder how the current chieftain feels about the fact that one of his clan is the mother of a future king as well and will probably one day be buried in a Royal grave in a Dansih cathedral....

Very proud I should think.

[TheTruth]

Originally Posted by Skydragon

Of course we have a specific area to bury our animals, or their ashes, what else would you do with them?

Well I had a dog who was hit by a car and died. But we didn't bury him or kept his ashes with us. A sanitary service came, took him and he was cremated with other animals in a huge incinerator (I wasn't there to see it and I think it was better for me). Many people do this when the death of the animal is violent, they don't want to think of it every day when passing by the grave or the ashes. My mother saw my dog getting hit and it's way more better that we didn't keep his remains, plus we move alot so his grave would had to be removed every time.
So I believe that not all people have an area to bury them ...

[GillW]

Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine

I am not convinced that Diana is buried on this island. While it seems to be a concept that is understood by her fans, I don't buy it that the current members of such an ancient family did something so "Hollywood-ish". Aristocrats bury their dogs on islands of ornamental lakes but not their sisters without at least a proper crypt.

I think Diana is buried in a coffin which is kept in the private chapel of Althorp which probably has a priest's annexe. Once the next Spencer dies and will be buried in the family crypt in the village church, her coffin will be discreetly added. If the Spencers who are buried there are mentioned somewhere through a plaque or something, they will probably put a plaque of "remembrance" next to her father's.

Just my idea, of course.

Althorp Estate does not have a private chapel. That's why the Spencer ancestors are buried either in the churchyard at Great Brington or within the sealed Spencer crypt inside the body of the church.

That particular island is elegant, peaceful, beautiful and undisturbed. It sits in the grounds Diana loved and is a wonderfully tranquil spot. There's very little "Hollywood" about any of it. The "Temple" is very old and was a stylish "folly" of its day, serving now as a gathering spot for the floral tributes brought every year - but it's no "Chinese Theatre" film set by any means.

People walk serenly around the still water of the lake, with just the sound of rustling trees and singing birds (REAL ONES - not animatronic) I find it a stark contrast to the "tourist" places that are often mentioned as alternative sites for her to be buried - such as Westminster Abbey, or St Pauls, where there are milling crowds in their droves, jostling for the best photo-opportunity in an undignified scramble before their coach leaves for Stratford so they can "do" Shakespeare.....

As for the Earl making money - well, he is using it for the upkeep of a splendid British Stately Home, PLUS he has donated many thousands from the takings over the years to Dianas charities too. The whole of the estate is superbly maintained (for instance, the public loos are the finest I've been in anywhere!) staffed by smashing young people who do a great job & are very helpful & well informed. The Diana; A Celebration exhibition is very well done, too and is a fitting tribute and very evocative. To me, I feel he is providing a much needed focal point and outlet for those who still grieve for Diana and it is not at all tacky nor tasteless, no matter what carping journalists would have you believe.

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by GillW

Althorp Estate does not have a private chapel. That's why the Spencer ancestors are buried either in the churchyard at Great Brington or within the sealed Spencer crypt inside the body of the church.

Of course Althorp has a chapel: or how could her brother have married his second wife there in 2001 if it didn't exist?

A quote from: Princess Diana Exhibit

"In December 2001, he married the former Caroline Freud (née Hutton), whom he had known since his university days at Oxford. Their wedding took place in the private chapel at Althorp. "

In addition I found information that during the times of Raine Spencer the chapel was used as storage room but that the current earl Spencer restored it to its function after his father's death. Considering this information, I wouldn't wonder if he thought the chapel a suitable place for Diana.

Probably it's not open to the public, but existing it does.

Another info about this chapel's organ:

When the Earl Spencer installed an early nineteenth-century chamber-organ in the chapel of his house at Althorp near Northampton in 1992, he took his place in a long history of such small British organs.
The chamber-organ now at Althorp was discovered in the parish church of Meriden near Coventry; both its builder and original home are unknown, but it seems to date from about 1810-1815. The alterations carried out on it were probably carried out by J. Charles Lee, a local organ-builder in a small way of business at the end of the nineteenth century and the beginning of the twentieth. At his hands the organ had suffered many of the alterations described above - the bass compass was shortened to C, (though the soundboard remains intact) and a thirty-note pedal-board added, complete with Bourdon; new bellows; and many of the treble pipes replaced with others of a later date, to obtain more power; and the electric blower, too large for its job.
Michael Latham has put right what he could from a conservationist point of view: the pedals have gone, and the lower panels of the case have been repaired and replaced; soundboard restored, pallets re-leathered, and bass half-octave of kets replaced - we all look forward to the time when the pipes belonging to them can be made and inserted. The bellows have been re-leathered, and all pipes have been cleaned and set on speech. The organ is much appreciated by all who hear it.
[Acta Organologica 25, 1997, 97-104]

[GillW]

Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine

Of course Althorp has a chapel: or how could her brother have married his second wife there in 2001 if it didn't exist?

A quote from: Princess Diana Exhibit

"In December 2001, he married the former Caroline Freud (née Hutton), whom he had known since his university days at Oxford. Their wedding took place in the private chapel at Althorp. "

In addition I found information that during the times of Raine Spencer the chapel was used as storage room but that the current earl Spencer restored it to its function after his father's death. Considering this information, I wouldn't wonder if he thought the chapel a suitable place for Diana.

Probably it's not open to the public, but existing it does.

Another info about this chapel's organ:

When the Earl Spencer installed an early nineteenth-century chamber-organ in the chapel of his house at Althorp near Northampton in 1992, he took his place in a long history of such small British organs.
The chamber-organ now at Althorp was discovered in the parish church of Meriden near Coventry; both its builder and original home are unknown, but it seems to date from about 1810-1815. The alterations carried out on it were probably carried out by J. Charles Lee, a local organ-builder in a small way of business at the end of the nineteenth century and the beginning of the twentieth. At his hands the organ had suffered many of the alterations described above - the bass compass was shortened to C, (though the soundboard remains intact) and a thirty-note pedal-board added, complete with Bourdon; new bellows; and many of the treble pipes replaced with others of a later date, to obtain more power; and the electric blower, too large for its job.
Michael Latham has put right what he could from a conservationist point of view: the pedals have gone, and the lower panels of the case have been repaired and replaced; soundboard restored, pallets re-leathered, and bass half-octave of kets replaced - we all look forward to the time when the pipes belonging to them can be made and inserted. The bellows have been re-leathered, and all pipes have been cleaned and set on speech. The organ is much appreciated by all who hear it.
[Acta Organologica 25, 1997, 97-104]

Even so, I can't imagine him getting married wiht his sister's coffin propped in the corner.....And it still doesn't account for all the houshold & estate staff present when the coffin arrived back at Althorp, watching it being taken to the island (even though they were not allowed ONTO the island for the interment) AND the undertaker's staff transporting it onto the island and putting it into the grave. There would have been some leak, somewhere, by now that there was a cover up.

Once buried, as we have discussed elsewhere, it would be illegal to then remove the coffin from the ground & relocate it - not to mention the enourmous task of raising a lead lined coffin and getting it back across a lake, where the bridge was speadily removed by the army (who built it) - you can't do that with smoke & mirrors. Earl Spencer was pictured the same week rowing across to the island to transport the floral tributes left at the estate gates...

[Lily97]

I have just returned from a trip to Althorp. It does indeed have a private chapel that used to be public for the village. I found the island to be a very peaceful site and indeed there were flowers there for Diana. Like Gill stated you could hear birds, the wind blew, you could sit down and reflect on how you felt. I enjoyed the films that were shown of her as a little girl, as a woman and of her wedding. Her wedding gown and dresses brought back such memories. The whole display went from her childhood forwards to the island.

I was staying in London so of course I went to where she was wed and where her funeral took place. I also visited Kensington Palace where Mario Testino's photographs were on display. There you could sign books but I didn't see any at Althorp. I did see a room full of how many condolence books had been signed at her death!

I personally am not a fan of Charles Spencer but I must say Althorp is tastefully done and a quite a tribute to Diana. I am not a fanatic fan but if not for Althorp there is no other place to go and pay your respects.

In my opinion, they should leave her be. To be honest, she really isn't there anymore.

Lily

[GillW]

Originally Posted by Lily97

I have just returned from a trip to Althorp. It does indeed have a private chapel that used to be public for the village. I found the island to be a very peaceful site and indeed there were flowers there for Diana. Like Gill stated you could hear birds, the wind blew, you could sit down and reflect on how you felt. I enjoyed the films that were shown of her as a little girl, as a woman and of her wedding. Her wedding gown and dresses brought back such memories. The whole display went from her childhood forwards to the island.

I was staying in London so of course I went to where she was wed and where her funeral took place. I also visited Kensington Palace where Mario Testino's photographs were on display. There you could sign books but I didn't see any at Althorp. I did see a room full of how many condolence books had been signed at her death!

I personally am not a fan of Charles Spencer but I must say Althorp is tastefully done and a quite a tribute to Diana. I am not a fanatic fan but if not for Althorp there is no other place to go and pay your respects.

In my opinion, they should leave her be. To be honest, she really isn't there anymore.

Lily

Glad you enjoyed your visit Lily. Althorp is such a beautiful house and estate - did you go around the inside of house too? I love to see the fantastic china and the library shelves and all the paintings. There are some lovely things. How are the gardens this year after our very wet summer - looking good? Did you try anything from the cafe or buy anything in the shop? ANy sign of the Earl or any of his children this year?

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by GillW

Even so, I can't imagine him getting married wiht his sister's coffin propped in the corner.....

Anyone marrying in the church in great Bingham is surrounded by dead Spencers... like in so many other churches with graves in them. Still people marry in churches...

[GillW]

Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine

Anyone marrying in the church in great Bingham is surrounded by dead Spencers... like in so many other churches with graves in them. Still people marry in churches...

I refuse to be drawn any further into this silly specualtion - and you can't even get the name of the village right.....

[CasiraghiTrio]

Originally Posted by Lily97

I
I personally am not a fan of Charles Spencer but I must say Althorp is tastefully done and a quite a tribute to Diana. I am not a fanatic fan but if not for Althorp there is no other place to go and pay your respects.

I am impressed by your personal account of Althorp. The media makes it seem like a circus, but you make it sound very subdued, peaceful, and tasteful. I do hope it is so, because Diana did not deserve her final resting place to be a profits-driven Graceland II. I am also not a fan of Lord Spencer (he is pretty creepy) but it sounds like from your account that he or his "people" rather have done a good job. What about the museum? Is it overdone at all? It kind of seems overkill with all the memorabilia (uniforms and letters and such), but maybe in actuality it's presented tastefully. I hope so.

[TheTruth]

I'm sure it's quiet and peaceful on the island. He didn't put her at the view of everyone and that's the most important. At least we know that overthere, nobody can go unless the ones who were dear to her. I don't belive he's a man who exclusively made this for his bank account. I can't think of a brother turning his sister into a public attraction.

[CasiraghiTrio]

Originally Posted by TheTruth

I'm sure it's quiet and peaceful on the island. He didn't put her at the view of everyone and that's the most important. At least we know that overthere, nobody can go unless the ones who were dear to her. I don't belive he's a man who exclusively made this for his bank account. I can't think of a brother turning his sister into a public attraction.

True, it's not exclusively for his profit, as a portion of the profits go to the Diana fund, right? There are things I respect about him, one being that he is an excellent writer. I have not read his books, but have read excerpts from his books, and his eulogy was profoundly, well written, whatever anyone can and will say about its undertones. He presents himself well, but my only reservation about him, I suppose what keeps my respect in check, is a suspicion that he presents himself rather too well. It's as if he is over-concerned with himself and reflects questionably on the sincerity of his character. I would rather see anyone having cracks in their behavior, a few honest flaws here and there, than to see someone always so perfect.

[GillW]

Originally Posted by CasiraghiTrio

I am impressed by your personal account of Althorp. The media makes it seem like a circus, but you make it sound very subdued, peaceful, and tasteful. I do hope it is so, because Diana did not deserve her final resting place to be a profits-driven Graceland II. I am also not a fan of Lord Spencer (he is pretty creepy) but it sounds like from your account that he or his "people" rather have done a good job. What about the museum? Is it overdone at all? It kind of seems overkill with all the memorabilia (uniforms and letters and such), but maybe in actuality it's presented tastefully. I hope so.

If I can add my bit too, to Lily's lovely account, I can say that I don't find anything there overdone or tacky. The museum is touching, well laid out & interesting. It has a haunting quality - seeing her clothes in large glass cases, yet lacking in the dynamism she brought to them, is very poignant, and there is a lovely film that plays on a loop in that room.

The bookcases Lily mentioned with hundreds of examples of the books of condolences, signed form all over the world, beautifully bound are very touching - always bring a tear to my eye seeing some of the special messages opened for us to read.

Even the items in the shop are obviously chosen with great care and taste, maybe not cheap but that's to do with the quality, not profit making.

It seems annoying to me that so many disparaging remarks about Althorp tend to come from writers who have never been. My first visit was many years ago while the late Earl was still alive. Although there have been many changes since, these have all been to the benefit of a grand estate saved from falling into disrepair but also benefiting those who like to visit. For instance, the landscaped walkway from the car park is now excellent, whereas at one time you had to trudge along a roadway with no footpath.

[sirhon11234]

Out of 5 what would you rate Althorp as GillW?

[CasiraghiTrio]

Thanks for your reply, GillW. After reading your post, I can imagine in my mind walking through the various exhibits of her old uniforms and everything, and I am feeling quite emotional just imagining. I think it must be heart-wrenching to actually walk through the museum, like 10X worse than that horrible painful swelling of the heart when Elton John opened the concert with the backdrop of the Testino pictures.

[sirhon11234]

Originally Posted by CasiraghiTrio

Thanks for your reply, GillW. After reading your post, I can imagine in my mind walking through the various exhibits of her old uniforms and everything, and I am feeling quite emotional just imagining. I think it must be heart-wrenching to actually walk through the museum, like 10X worse than that horrible painful swelling of the heart when Elton John opened the concert with the backdrop of the Testino pictures.

You were sad at the opening of the concert, I couldn't stop smiling when Elton opened the concert with Testino's pictures in the background.

[TheTruth]

Originally Posted by CasiraghiTrio

Thanks for your reply, GillW. After reading your post, I can imagine in my mind walking through the various exhibits of her old uniforms and everything, and I am feeling quite emotional just imagining. I think it must be heart-wrenching to actually walk through the museum, like 10X worse than that horrible painful swelling of the heart when Elton John opened the concert with the backdrop of the Testino pictures.

I undestand too. I'm quite emotional (maybe too much) and it would be tough to go to a place like this. Not only for Diana, but even when I go see some graves of persons I knew, even barely, it brakes my heart.