Was 'The Oval' in Althorp the right place to bury Diana?

[BeatrixFan]

Thats right, generally, there's either an underground vault which is a stone coffin-shaped hole and the slab with the inscription can be removed. In the past, coffins were loaded into an overground tomb and so the coffin was encased in a stone overground vault. That rarely happens now. I don't see what the Habsburgs did to be bad - I find it quite romantic.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

Isn't the Duchess of Windsor among the residents at Frogmore?

Yes, and appropriately because the Duchess was family. She was the Duke's widow. I remember reading in one of Seward's books that Diana confided to the author the most vivid memory she had of the Queen shedding tears, and it was the Duchess's funeral, and Diana said she was so shocked to see it she didn't know how to respond.

I think Park House Sandringham was out of the question for two reasons I thought were obvious:
1) It was not a property of the Spencers. They had not renewed the lease since the early 70s, I think
2) It was bought by an elderly homes company, I think, in the early 90s or late 80s after being quite vacant and forlorn for many years.

I think it might have been unwise to bury her at Althorp, in retrospect, considering how her brother profits from her by such commerical means, but there is nothing to do about it now. I think her family, especially her sons, would hate to have her excavated and moved now. It would a terrible ordeal for them, I imagine.

 

[GillW]

Yes, and appropriately because the Duchess was family. She was the Duke's widow. I remember reading in one of Seward's books that Diana confided to the author the most vivid memory she had of the Queen shedding tears, and it was the Duchess's funeral, and Diana said she was so shocked to see it she didn't know how to respond.

I think Park House Sandringham was out of the question for two reasons I thought were obvious:
1) It was not a property of the Spencers. They had not renewed the lease since the early 70s, I think
2) It was bought by an elderly homes company, I think, in the early 90s or late 80s after being quite vacant and forlorn for many years.

I think it might have been unwise to bury her at Althorp, in retrospect, considering how her brother profits from her by such commerical means, but there is nothing to do about it now. I think her family, especially her sons, would hate to have her excavated and moved now. It would a terrible ordeal for them, I imagine.

Park House, Sandringham was donated by the Queen to the Leonard Cheshire Foundation, and that charity turned it into a holiday hotel for handicapped people, and it still runs to date. Diana frequently was known to stroll across from Sandringham House and have a cup of tea with those people staying there. The visitors are also often taken to wait outside the Sandringham Church and enjoy meeting the various Royals before & after the services held there. (I worked for the Leonard Cheshire Foundation for almost 5 years)

 

[Jeff Baltimore]

Diana is really buried .....

Some say she is now really buried on the shallow island, but in the church on the property and they just told people that to give her peace. After her death and they said she was on the island there were fresh cement marks that a tomb was opened and sealed in the church.

 

[selrahc4]

I don't think Park House has been sold, though. It seems it was made available to the foundation but remains part of the the estate. Park House Hotel

 

[trinny]

At the time I think it was appropriate to bury her there, for her sake and for her boy's sake - they needed that security, privacy and solitude.

However, as someone has already said, I hate thinking of her there all on her own so I'd like to think of them moving her to ... um... possibly Frogmore (??) but for no one but those that must know to know.
So they can visit & be with their Mum more easily but still in private and with secure solitude.

 

[iowabelle]

I thought the choice of the island was quite charming, rather Arthurian.

On the practical side, there was the issue of security around the burial site. And I think Earl Spencer talked about his fears about disrupting life in the village, if Diana had been laid to rest with their father.

I was concerned about the boys' access to the burial site, but, let's be honest, if Diana had been buried among the royals, the boys probably wouldn't have gone often, either, because they were in school. I'm sure that Earl Spencer wouldn't have had a problem with the boys visiting her at Althorp, even if he wasn't in residence.

The whole situation was just awkward for the families and terrible for the boys.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

I was concerned about the boys' access to the burial site, but, let's be honest, if Diana had been buried among the royals, the boys probably wouldn't have gone often, either, because they were in school.

If buried at Frogmore, it would have been pretty convenient I think while they studied at Eton. But I can see that any place for her would have posed its own problems, given the unique person she was. At least at Althorp, it feels like she is laid to rest in a familiar home rather than what might feel like a cold mausoleum(sp) at Frogmore.

I am sure you are right about the PW and PH having free access to Althorp anytime. Although not close to Lord Spencer, for whatever reasons (perhaps only because he is often traveling or living abroad, or else they feel as the general public feels about it, not liking him! ) I have always taken Spencer at his word when he says that his nephews are able and welcome to visit the island any whim. I cannot imagine why it would be otherwise.

 

[GillW]

At the time I think it was appropriate to bury her there, for her sake and for her boy's sake - they needed that security, privacy and solitude.

However, as someone has already said, I hate thinking of her there all on her own so I'd like to think of them moving her to ... um... possibly Frogmore (??) but for no one but those that must know to know.
So they can visit & be with their Mum more easily but still in private and with secure solitude.

But isn't it nicer that she is resting in her own "family" home where she lived - and for at least part of her youth - grew up? There are family around her for some of the year, as well as thousands of well-wishing visitors who still love & miss her.

Frogmore is not and never has been a home, simply a place for the dead - none of whom Diana even knew in life....It is open to visitors for just a handful of days each year - cutting her off from the public who kept her going and gave her invaluable support.

 

[selrahc4]

Frogmore is not and never has been a home, simply a place for the dead -

Among others, Queen Victoria's mother the Duchess of Kent lived there. Also her daughter Princess Helena and husband Prince Christian of Schleswig-Holstein and their family. Prince Louis of Battenberg and his wife Princess Victoria (grandparents of the Duke of Edinburgh) and their family lived there for a while; their son Louis (later Earl Mountbatten of Burma) was born there in 1900. King Edward VII lived there for a time when he was Prince of Wales and his son Albert Victor (later Duke of Clarence and Avondale) was born there in 1864.

 

[sirhon11234]

Fergie and Andrew were supposed to live there after the wedding.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

I don't think Frogmore was ever considered to be a home by anyone in the family. Prince Andrew and Sarah, I think, once intended to have Royal Lodge refurbished but for some reason (I forgot why) they used Sunninghill Park, which had originally been intended for Princess Elizabeth and the Duke of Edinburgh, but Sunninghill Park had been destroyed by fire so the Edinburghs moved to the rented Windlesham Moor or Manor (?) instead. Please correct me if this is wrong. I am not sure I remember this stuff precisely.

Now of course Royal Lodge is used by Prince Andrew after he inherited it from the Queen Mother and it was extensively renovated for his permanent residence. I guess Sunninghill Park is still on the market, although Sarah and the girls can still use it until it sells.

 

[sirhon11234]

Yes it was considered for Andrew and Sarah to move to Frogmore House.
Frogmore House - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[selrahc4]

I don't think Frogmore was ever considered to be a home by anyone in the family.

Why do you think that the people I mentioned above who lived there never considered it to be a home?

Prince Andrew and Sarah, I think, once intended to have Royal Lodge refurbished but for some reason (I forgot why) they used Sunninghill Park

The reason probably was the very good one that it was the weekend home of the Queen Mother and had been since the 1930's.

...they used Sunninghill Park, which had originally been intended for Princess Elizabeth and the Duke of Edinburgh, but Sunninghill Park had been destroyed by fire .

Yes, the original Sunninghill Park which was purchased by the Crown Estates in 1945 did suffer destruction by fire. But, of course, Andrew did not move into that building, another (we've heard of South York) being constructed at that address.

Now of course Royal Lodge is used by Prince Andrew after he inherited it from the Queen Mother and it was extensively renovated for his permanent residence. I guess Sunninghill Park is still on the market, although Sarah and the girls can still use it until it sells.

I guess you could say he inherited it in that he received the right to lease it; but it is still a property of the Crown Estates. The Sunninghill house that was built for Prince Andrew after he married has supposedly been sold recently. I'm not sure to whom the proceeds went, whether to the Queen herself or to the Crown Estates; I'm pretty sure it was never in Andrew's name as owner.

 

[GillW]

Some say she is not really buried on the shallow island, but in the church on the property and they just told people that to give her peace. After her death and they said she was on the island there were fresh cement marks that a tomb was opened and sealed in the church.

The Church at Great Brington is not on the estate, but about 2 miles away in the village (I know - I've walked there from Althorp house) The "fresh" cement that journalists talk about was where the vault was opened to add the remains of Diana's father, 8th Earl Spencer, a few years earlier. There has been no change since the depositing of his ashes in early 1992.

The church is not some private secret chapel, but is the well used and popular village church, so any changes would be noticed immediately.

 

[GillW]

Among others, Queen Victoria's mother the Duchess of Kent lived there. Also her daughter Princess Helena and husband Prince Christian of Schleswig-Holstein and their family. Prince Louis of Battenberg and his wife Princess Victoria (grandparents of the Duke of Edinburgh) and their family lived there for a while; their son Louis (later Earl Mountbatten of Burma) was born there in 1900. King Edward VII lived there for a time when he was Prince of Wales and his son Albert Victor (later Duke of Clarence and Avondale) was born there in 1864.

Apologies - I humbly stand corrected.

However, what doesn't change is that Diana never lived there, nor any of her family, nor anyone she ever knew, and the only reason she ever set foot in the place was for a funeral or two...

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

I stand corrected too. I was just trying to help.

 

[selrahc4]

GillW and CasiraghiTrio, my apologies to both of you as well if my posts in response to yours came over too dogmatic. I was also just trying to expand on the facts. Sometimes I become too impatient with suppostion which doesn't match the facts. It's a failing of mine.

 

[GillW]

GillW and CasiraghiTrio, my apologies to both of you as well if my posts in response to yours came over too dogmatic. I was also just trying to expand on the facts. Sometimes I become too impatient with suppostion which doesn't match the facts. It's a failing of mine.

NO offence taken - I'd much rather find out the facts than stumble along under misconceptions, so thanks for the information.

 

[sirhon11234]

If Diana's remains are exhumed and re-buried elsewhere its nothing new. Karen Carpenter died in 1983 and her brother had her exhumed from her marble tomb and put her into the family masoluem with her parents in 2003 20 years after her death. William and Harry might do that with the Princess.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

I am not convinced that Diana is buried on this island. While it seems to be a concept that is understood by her fans, I don't buy it that the current members of such an ancient family did something so "Hollywood-ish". Aristocrats bury their dogs on islands of ornamental lakes but not their sisters without at least a proper crypt.

I think Diana is buried in a coffin which is kept in the private chapel of Althorp which probably has a priest's annexe. Once the next Spencer dies and will be buried in the family crypt in the village church, her coffin will be discreetly added. If the Spencers who are buried there are mentioned somewhere through a plaque or something, they will probably put a plaque of "remembrance" next to her father's.

Just my idea, of course.

 

[Skydragon]

I am not convinced that Diana is buried on this island. While it seems to be a concept that is understood by her fans, I don't buy it that the current members of such an ancient family did something so "Hollywood-ish". Aristocrats bury their dogs on islands of ornamental lakes but not their sisters without at least a proper crypt. .

I thought the grave was lined in marble. Many of the MacDonald chieftens were buried on an island in Loch Leven (Ballachulish/Glencoe).

Spencer probably did it to make money, much better to have had her cremated and her ashes scattered to the wind, but that would not have made him any money at all.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

I thought the grave was lined in marble. Many of the MacDonald chieftens were buried on an island in Loch Leven (Ballachulish/Glencoe).

Well, Diana was not a Scot, she was English. While I've been to Scotland several times and agree that a burial site on an island in a Scottish Loch is a very dignified place, I have completely different feelings when it comes to an artificial island in an ornamental lake which was landscaped in a time when faked ruins and pseudo-antique temples were very much à la mode. Mind, I love the English landscaped gardens and parks, but a part of their style is to have a pet graveyard somewhere with marble crypts for favorite dogs - and examples of this immediately come to my mind when I think of Diana on that island. Okay, there might be a bit of poetic justice to think of such a grave for someone who personally worked on digging a secret baby grave in a Royal garden in order to leave an unsolved mystery for future generations, but still - Diana as mother of a future king deserved a bit of decorum at least.

AFAIK there is nothing to give people a hint where she allegedly was buried
except that marble urn, but this urn is said to be somewhere else on the island and is only considered a symbol for the invisible (non-existant?) grave.

As for the MacDonalds - I wonder how the current chieftain feels about the fact that one of his clan is the mother of a future king as well and will probably one day be buried in a Royal grave in a Dansih cathedral....

 

[Skydragon]

.... part of their style is to have a pet graveyard somewhere with marble crypts for favorite dogs

Of course we have a specific area to bury our animals, or their ashes, what else would you do with them?

As for the MacDonalds - I wonder how the current chieftain feels about the fact that one of his clan is the mother of a future king as well and will probably one day be buried in a Royal grave in a Dansih cathedral....

Very proud I should think.

 

[TheTruth]

Of course we have a specific area to bury our animals, or their ashes, what else would you do with them?

Well I had a dog who was hit by a car and died. But we didn't bury him or kept his ashes with us. A sanitary service came, took him and he was cremated with other animals in a huge incinerator (I wasn't there to see it and I think it was better for me). Many people do this when the death of the animal is violent, they don't want to think of it every day when passing by the grave or the ashes. My mother saw my dog getting hit and it's way more better that we didn't keep his remains, plus we move alot so his grave would had to be removed every time.
So I believe that not all people have an area to bury them ...

 

[GillW]

I am not convinced that Diana is buried on this island. While it seems to be a concept that is understood by her fans, I don't buy it that the current members of such an ancient family did something so "Hollywood-ish". Aristocrats bury their dogs on islands of ornamental lakes but not their sisters without at least a proper crypt.

I think Diana is buried in a coffin which is kept in the private chapel of Althorp which probably has a priest's annexe. Once the next Spencer dies and will be buried in the family crypt in the village church, her coffin will be discreetly added. If the Spencers who are buried there are mentioned somewhere through a plaque or something, they will probably put a plaque of "remembrance" next to her father's.

Just my idea, of course.

Althorp Estate does not have a private chapel. That's why the Spencer ancestors are buried either in the churchyard at Great Brington or within the sealed Spencer crypt inside the body of the church.

That particular island is elegant, peaceful, beautiful and undisturbed. It sits in the grounds Diana loved and is a wonderfully tranquil spot. There's very little "Hollywood" about any of it. The "Temple" is very old and was a stylish "folly" of its day, serving now as a gathering spot for the floral tributes brought every year - but it's no "Chinese Theatre" film set by any means.

People walk serenly around the still water of the lake, with just the sound of rustling trees and singing birds (REAL ONES - not animatronic) I find it a stark contrast to the "tourist" places that are often mentioned as alternative sites for her to be buried - such as Westminster Abbey, or St Pauls, where there are milling crowds in their droves, jostling for the best photo-opportunity in an undignified scramble before their coach leaves for Stratford so they can "do" Shakespeare.....

As for the Earl making money - well, he is using it for the upkeep of a splendid British Stately Home, PLUS he has donated many thousands from the takings over the years to Dianas charities too. The whole of the estate is superbly maintained (for instance, the public loos are the finest I've been in anywhere!) staffed by smashing young people who do a great job & are very helpful & well informed. The Diana; A Celebration exhibition is very well done, too and is a fitting tribute and very evocative. To me, I feel he is providing a much needed focal point and outlet for those who still grieve for Diana and it is not at all tacky nor tasteless, no matter what carping journalists would have you believe.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

Althorp Estate does not have a private chapel. That's why the Spencer ancestors are buried either in the churchyard at Great Brington or within the sealed Spencer crypt inside the body of the church.

Of course Althorp has a chapel: or how could her brother have married his second wife there in 2001 if it didn't exist?

A quote from: Princess Diana Exhibit

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"In December 2001, he married the former Caroline Freud (née Hutton), whom he had known since his university days at Oxford. Their wedding took place in the private chapel at Althorp. "

In addition I found information that during the times of Raine Spencer the chapel was used as storage room but that the current earl Spencer restored it to its function after his father's death. Considering this information, I wouldn't wonder if he thought the chapel a suitable place for Diana.

Probably it's not open to the public, but existing it does.

Another info about this chapel's organ:

[/FONT]When the Earl Spencer installed an early nineteenth-century chamber-organ in the chapel of his house at Althorp near Northampton in 1992, he took his place in a long history of such small British organs.
The chamber-organ now at Althorp was discovered in the parish church of Meriden near Coventry; both its builder and original home are unknown, but it seems to date from about 1810-1815. The alterations carried out on it were probably carried out by J. Charles Lee, a local organ-builder in a small way of business at the end of the nineteenth century and the beginning of the twentieth. At his hands the organ had suffered many of the alterations described above - the bass compass was shortened to C, (though the soundboard remains intact) and a thirty-note pedal-board added, complete with Bourdon; new bellows; and many of the treble pipes replaced with others of a later date, to obtain more power; and the electric blower, too large for its job.
Michael Latham has put right what he could from a conservationist point of view: the pedals have gone, and the lower panels of the case have been repaired and replaced; soundboard restored, pallets re-leathered, and bass half-octave of kets replaced - we all look forward to the time when the pipes belonging to them can be made and inserted. The bellows have been re-leathered, and all pipes have been cleaned and set on speech. The organ is much appreciated by all who hear it.
[Acta Organologica 25, 1997, 97-104]

 

[GillW]

Of course Althorp has a chapel: or how could her brother have married his second wife there in 2001 if it didn't exist?

A quote from: Princess Diana Exhibit

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"In December 2001, he married the former Caroline Freud (née Hutton), whom he had known since his university days at Oxford. Their wedding took place in the private chapel at Althorp. "[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In addition I found information that during the times of Raine Spencer the chapel was used as storage room but that the current earl Spencer restored it to its function after his father's death. Considering this information, I wouldn't wonder if he thought the chapel a suitable place for Diana. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Probably it's not open to the public, but existing it does.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Another info about this chapel's organ:[/FONT]

When the Earl Spencer installed an early nineteenth-century chamber-organ in the chapel of his house at Althorp near Northampton in 1992, he took his place in a long history of such small British organs.
The chamber-organ now at Althorp was discovered in the parish church of Meriden near Coventry; both its builder and original home are unknown, but it seems to date from about 1810-1815. The alterations carried out on it were probably carried out by J. Charles Lee, a local organ-builder in a small way of business at the end of the nineteenth century and the beginning of the twentieth. At his hands the organ had suffered many of the alterations described above - the bass compass was shortened to C, (though the soundboard remains intact) and a thirty-note pedal-board added, complete with Bourdon; new bellows; and many of the treble pipes replaced with others of a later date, to obtain more power; and the electric blower, too large for its job.
Michael Latham has put right what he could from a conservationist point of view: the pedals have gone, and the lower panels of the case have been repaired and replaced; soundboard restored, pallets re-leathered, and bass half-octave of kets replaced - we all look forward to the time when the pipes belonging to them can be made and inserted. The bellows have been re-leathered, and all pipes have been cleaned and set on speech. The organ is much appreciated by all who hear it.
[Acta Organologica 25, 1997, 97-104]

Even so, I can't imagine him getting married wiht his sister's coffin propped in the corner.....And it still doesn't account for all the houshold & estate staff present when the coffin arrived back at Althorp, watching it being taken to the island (even though they were not allowed ONTO the island for the interment) AND the undertaker's staff transporting it onto the island and putting it into the grave. There would have been some leak, somewhere, by now that there was a cover up.

Once buried, as we have discussed elsewhere, it would be illegal to then remove the coffin from the ground & relocate it - not to mention the enourmous task of raising a lead lined coffin and getting it back across a lake, where the bridge was speadily removed by the army (who built it) - you can't do that with smoke & mirrors. Earl Spencer was pictured the same week rowing across to the island to transport the floral tributes left at the estate gates...

 

[Lily97]

Althorp

I have just returned from a trip to Althorp. It does indeed have a private chapel that used to be public for the village. I found the island to be a very peaceful site and indeed there were flowers there for Diana. Like Gill stated you could hear birds, the wind blew, you could sit down and reflect on how you felt. I enjoyed the films that were shown of her as a little girl, as a woman and of her wedding. Her wedding gown and dresses brought back such memories. The whole display went from her childhood forwards to the island.

I was staying in London so of course I went to where she was wed and where her funeral took place. I also visited Kensington Palace where Mario Testino's photographs were on display. There you could sign books but I didn't see any at Althorp. I did see a room full of how many condolence books had been signed at her death!

I personally am not a fan of Charles Spencer but I must say Althorp is tastefully done and a quite a tribute to Diana. I am not a fanatic fan but if not for Althorp there is no other place to go and pay your respects.

In my opinion, they should leave her be. To be honest, she really isn't there anymore.

Lily

 

[GillW]

I have just returned from a trip to Althorp. It does indeed have a private chapel that used to be public for the village. I found the island to be a very peaceful site and indeed there were flowers there for Diana. Like Gill stated you could hear birds, the wind blew, you could sit down and reflect on how you felt. I enjoyed the films that were shown of her as a little girl, as a woman and of her wedding. Her wedding gown and dresses brought back such memories. The whole display went from her childhood forwards to the island.

I was staying in London so of course I went to where she was wed and where her funeral took place. I also visited Kensington Palace where Mario Testino's photographs were on display. There you could sign books but I didn't see any at Althorp. I did see a room full of how many condolence books had been signed at her death!

I personally am not a fan of Charles Spencer but I must say Althorp is tastefully done and a quite a tribute to Diana. I am not a fanatic fan but if not for Althorp there is no other place to go and pay your respects.

In my opinion, they should leave her be. To be honest, she really isn't there anymore.

Lily

Glad you enjoyed your visit Lily. Althorp is such a beautiful house and estate - did you go around the inside of house too? I love to see the fantastic china and the library shelves and all the paintings. There are some lovely things. How are the gardens this year after our very wet summer - looking good? Did you try anything from the cafe or buy anything in the shop? ANy sign of the Earl or any of his children this year?