The Spencer Family, Ancestry and Althorp 1: Ending Aug. 2023

[Duc_et_Pair]

There is no direct relationship between Diana Spencer and Deborah Mitford. There is however a current link via the Ogilvy family (Earls of Airlie). The paternal grandmother of the Mitford sisters was Lady Clementina Ogilvy. The father of Lady Clementina was the 10th Earl of Airlie.

The link to the royal family is as follows:

David Ogilvy, 10th Earl of Airlie
x Hon Henrietta Blanche Stanley
= David

David Ogilvy, 11th Earl of Airlie
x Lady Mabell Frances Gore
= David

David Ogilvy, 12th Earl of Airlie
x Lady Alexandra Coke
= Angus

Hon Angus Ogilvy
x Princess Alexandra of Kent
= James Ogilvy
= Marina Ogilvy

 

[Rudolph]

According to Wikipedia, this is Diana's connection to most of Europe's royal families. She's a descendent, though illegitimate, of Charles II

Charles II of England mistress Louise de Kérouaille, Duchess of Portsmouth

son Charles Lennox, 1st Duke of Richmond married Anne Brudenell

son Charles Lennox, 2nd Duke of Richmond married Sarah Lennox, Duchess of Richmond and Lennox

son General Lord George Lennox married Lady Louisa Kerr

son Charles Lennox, 4th Duke of Richmond married Lady Charlotte Gordon

son Charles Gordon-Lennox, 5th Duke of Richmond married Lady Caroline Paget

daughter Lady Cecilia Gordon-Lennox married Charles Bingham, 4th Earl of Lucan

daughter Lady Rosalind Bingham (1869–1958) married James Hamilton, 3rd Duke of Abercorn

daughter Lady Cynthia Hamilton married Albert Spencer, 7th Earl Spencer
son John Spencer, 8th Earl Spencer married Frances Roche

daughter Diana, Princess of Wales married Charles, Prince of Wales

sons Prince William, Duke of Cambridge and Prince Harry

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descendants_of_Charles_II_of_England#Children_by_Barbara_Palmer_n.C3.A9e_Villiers

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

A great-great-grandmother of Prince Albert, Princess Caroline and Princess Stéphanie de Monaco was Lady Mary Douglas-Hamilton, daughter of the 11th Duke of Hamilton and 8th Duke of Brandon. Most likely somewhere there will be a common ancestor, but it is clear it if not "direct" at all.

 

[QueenElizabeth2Fan]

So I think it's safe to say that Diana was related to almost every British/English aristocratic family.
Except the Redesdales (Sydney, ___th Baron Redesdale was Deborah Mitford's father)

Is Diana related to:
1) Lucrezia Borgia
2) Any recent Kings of Spain or past Kings of France
3) Any Kings of Italy (from possibly the 17th to 20th centuries)
4) The royal families of Luxembourg and Liechtenstein?

 

[JR76]

So I think it's safe to say that Diana was related to almost every British/English aristocratic family.
Except the Redesdales (Sydney, ___th Baron Redesdale was Deborah Mitford's father)

Georgiana Spencer, the greatx4-aunt of Diana married the fifth Duke of Devonshire & is therefore an ancestor of Deborah Mitfords husband

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Is Diana related to:
1) Lucrezia Borgia
2) Any recent Kings of Spain or past Kings of France
3) Any Kings of Italy (from possibly the 17th to 20th centuries)
4) The royal families of Luxembourg and Liechtenstein?

The Borgias: no. The rise and fall of that family took place in the 15th C. They rose from obscurity to shame and fame and felt quite soon back into relative obscurity. They were mainly seen as parvenues in the eyes of the royal families and the aristocracy. That someone in far-away England would marry a Spanish or Italian Borgia is hard to imagine.

The royal houses of Spain, France, Luxembourg (all three Houses are Bourbons), Italy (Savoy): yes, when we acccept that Diana is a descendant of a bastard of Charles II, then ultimately we will find some shared ancestors, if we search long enough, as the descendants of said Charles II of course came from continental royal houses which were very linked together.

With the princely family of Liechtenstein there will be links too since the current Hereditary Princess is the second most senior agnate of the Jacobite claim on the thrones of England and Scotland and this claim derives from the Stuarts, of which Charles II was a scion (and ultimately also Diana).

 

[Rudolph]

Not just any 'bastards'. Charles II had no legitimate issue but he officially recognised some of his children including Diana's ancestors, Henry Fitzroy, 1st Duke of Grafton, and Charles Lennox, 1st Duke of Richmond. She is a direct descendent.

 

[QueenElizabeth2Fan]

I know that Diana is probably related to Jaquetta of Luxembourg. But, is Jaquetta an ancestor of the current Luxembourg Royal Family?

 

[Ish]

I have Iain Moncreiffe's book (Royal Highness: Ancestry of the Royal Child) about the ancestry of the Spencer's and the Windsors.
Does anyone have a copy of the book like I do?
And can anyone verify the truthful royal ancestry from the royals to Diana? i.e. Can anyone here verify how true the lines of descent are?

Also, on Wikipedia, it says "if this is true" under a line of descent "proposed" by Iain. Can anyone verify this one as well?

Plus, how is Princess Di related to Arbella Churchill, and Bess of Hardwick, individually?

I don't really think (to respond to the 'who's more royal than who' debate) it's a matter of who's more royal.
As long as Prince William becomes King of England, I'd be happy! Because he truly unites the Windsor and Spencer bloodlines.

Also: Does anyone know why William doesn't talk about his ancestry that much? Someone here said he "rarely" talks about it.

Re: the whole "who's more royal than who" debate; this is something that got blown out of proportion based on a comment that Diana is said to have made about her family (the Spencers) being older than Prince Philip's (the Mountbattens). The actual titles - Earl Spencer vs. Duke of Edinburgh, or even Earl Spencer vs. Prince of Greece and Denmark - do show this, but the families themselves don't. The Spencer family only goes back to the 16th century, while the DoE can trace his male-line ancestry back to 1040, and his female line ancestry can be traced almost as far back.

The Spencers are descended from 58 British monarchs (21 of England, 4 of Great Britain, and 21 of Scotland), the most recent being James II/VII. The DoE's family is descended from 57 British monarchs (20 of England, 5 of Great Britain, and 20 of Scotland), the most recent being Queen Victoria. The Queen is descended from 62 British monarchs (21 of England, 9 of Britain, and 21 of Scotland), the most recent being her father.

The Spencers have more royal ancestry in Spain/France/Portugal - descending from 172 monarchs there, in comparison to the Queen and DoE's 166 monarchs. However, the DoE has more ancestors in Eastern European royalty - 66 monarchs to the Queen's 56, and the Spencers' 55 - and more ancestors in Scandinavian royalty - 70 monarchs to the Queen's 68 and the Spencers' 53. The DoE is descended from 387 different reigning European monarchs (the most recent being his grandfather), the Queen is descended from 379 monarchs, and the Spencers from 365. Diana's mother's family, the Roches, are even worse - 246 reigning monarchs.

 

[QueenElizabeth2Fan]

Interesting!
What about the nobility across Europe that the Queen, Duke of E., and the Spencer's are descended from?
Do you have the exact amount, Ish?

 

[Curryong]

King Charles II's mother Henrietta Maria was the daughter of the French King Henry IV, a Bourbon. Diana's descent from Charles II comes through two illegitimate sons of Charles, Henry Ist Duke of Grafton and Charles, Ist Duke of Richmond.

 

[Denville]

Its not IMO that interesting. Diana is of an "old" family, which is one reason why charles married her. but its absurd to think that he chose her because she has some Stuart blood on the wrong side of the blanket. She was not royal, he is...

 

[QueenElizabeth2Fan]

Its not IMO that interesting. Diana is of an "old" family, which is one reason why charles married her. but its absurd to think that he chose her because she has some Stuart blood on the wrong side of the blanket. She was not royal, he is...

What isn't interesting to you?
And you're right, she was simply an aristocrat.

 

[Lee-Z]

What isn't interesting to you?
And you're right, she was simply an aristocrat.

I could imagine that refers to this:

Interesting!
What about the nobility across Europe that the Queen, Duke of E., and the Spencer's are descended from?
Do you have the exact amount, Ish?

in a way that for your personal status it doesn't matter of how many royals you descend compared to another person.
The last couple of posts have a strong reminiscence of the "who is more royal, Diana or the Windsors" discussion which occasionally shows up again (and imo is an irrelevant discussion)

But purely for genealogical purposes ofcourse it is interesting, because the more royals you have in your family tree, the easier it is to trace your ancestors and the further back you can get back

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Conclusion: the Prince of Wales married a daughter of a respected countryside nobleman. And in the genealogical tree there is a link to a bastard of King Charles II.

That sounds negative but is not. Often bastards climbed to high positions in society. They were often openly recognizable as a bastard branch by a bar on their coat-of-arms:

Example: Bourbon-Parma with three fleurs-de-lys and Bourbon-Busset with the same arms but with a bar. That bar shows that the Bourbon-Bussets proudly carry the French royal arms but are not dynasts of the Royal House because they are descendants of a 13th c bastard.

 

[Osipi]

Now that, m'friend, is interesting that I didn't know or even thought possible.

Thanks for helping me check off my "learn something new everyday" box today.

 

[Osipi]

Coincidences

I get it every now and then that I find something interesting about something being discussed in a way that can only be described as being a coincidence.

After reading the recent postings here on Diana's ancestry and relations, I settled down to read a book I just got in the mail on Diana called "The Diana Chronicles" by Tina Brown. Found something very interesting that I didn't know before so thought I'd share it.

Diana's grandfather, Maurice Roche, 4th Baron Fermoy (husband to Lady Ruth Fermoy, a good friend to the Queen Mother) had an illegitimate child by his mistress Edith Travis, an American he would see when he traveled to the States. Their daughter, Edith Howitt Hodgins, went public in a book on her mother's devotion to Diana's grandfather in 2004 called "Lilac Days.

Thought it would add another leaf to Diana's family tree as Diana and Edith Howitt Hodgins share a grandfather in common even though one was born on the wrong side of the blanket so to speak.

This is the synopsis of the book from amazon.com

https://www.amazon.com/Lilac-Days-S...0&keywords=Lilac+Days+by+Edith+Howitt+Hodgins

 

[QueenElizabeth2Fan]

I could imagine that refers to this:



in a way that for your personal status it doesn't matter of how many royals you descend compared to another person.
The last couple of posts have a strong reminiscence of the "who is more royal, Diana or the Windsors" discussion which occasionally shows up again (and imo is an irrelevant discussion)

But purely for genealogical purposes ofcourse it is interesting, because the more royals you have in your family tree, the easier it is to trace your ancestors and the further back you can get back

It's only interesting to me, because I'm very interested in the genealogy of the British Royal Family--and anyone connected to it. Genealogy wise.

Conclusion: the Prince of Wales married a daughter of a respected countryside nobleman. And in the genealogical tree there is a link to a bastard of King Charles II.

That sounds negative but is not. Often bastards climbed to high positions in society. They were often openly recognizable as a bastard branch by a bar on their coat-of-arms:

Example: Bourbon-Parma with three fleurs-de-lys and Bourbon-Busset with the same arms but with a bar. That bar shows that the Bourbon-Bussets proudly carry the French royal arms but are not dynasts of the Royal House because they are descendants of a 13th c bastard.

But the coat of arms does not show the Bourbon-Bousset's are illegitimate.

I get it every now and then that I find something interesting about something being discussed in a way that can only be described as being a coincidence.

After reading the recent postings here on Diana's ancestry and relations, I settled down to read a book I just got in the mail on Diana called "The Diana Chronicles" by Tina Brown. Found something very interesting that I didn't know before so thought I'd share it.

Diana's grandfather, Maurice Roche, 4th Baron Fermoy (husband to Lady Ruth Fermoy, a good friend to the Queen Mother) had an illegitimate child by his mistress Edith Travis, an American he would see when he traveled to the States. Their daughter, Edith Howitt Hodgins, went public in a book on her mother's devotion to Diana's grandfather in 2004 called "Lilac Days.

Thought it would add another leaf to Diana's family tree as Diana and Edith Howitt Hodgins share a grandfather in common even though one was born on the wrong side of the blanket so to speak.

This is the synopsis of the book from amazon.com

https://www.amazon.com/Lilac-Days-S...0&keywords=Lilac+Days+by+Edith+Howitt+Hodgins

Very interesting! I started to read "Diana Chronicles" but stopped after a couple pages. Now I know that I definitely need to start reading it again!

 

[QueenElizabeth2Fan]

I hope we all can still contribute questions about Diana's ancestry/bloodline.

Who are some interesting English/British noble families she descends from--that we haven't discussed? Even though, of course, this is opinion.

 

[Osipi]

OK. I'm not really that much into tracing family trees and such but you might find this interesting.

Recently I posted about Maurice Roche, 4th Baron Fermoy who's wife was Lady Ruth Fermoy, a good friend of the Queen Mum. Going back one step furthur, we have American socialite Frances Work who married James, 3rd Baron Fermoy who's oldest son was Maurice. So that makes her Diana's great grandmother.

Another interesting tidbit is that Harry and William, having Frances Work Roche as a great great grandmother, through this lineage they also have Oliver Platt, an American actor who shares the same great great grandmother.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frances_Ellen_Work

https://famouskin.com/famous-kin-ch...cess+diana&via=6317+james+boothby+burke+roche

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Platt

So, this kind of shows that should Harry and Meghan Markle get engaged and married, he wouldn't be the first in his family tree to have married an American.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

[.....]

But the coat of arms does not show the Bourbon-Bousset's are illegitimate.

[.....]

Yes it does. The red "barre" or "baton sinister" in the royal arms of France shows that the Bourbon-Bussets are an illegitimate branch of the French royal family.

Another example:

We see the Royal Arms with England, Scotland and Ireland. In the heartshield we see the Arms of Hannover. These are the arms of King William IV of Great-Britain and Hannover. There is a "baton sinister" over these double royal arms, which stand for bastardry, an illegitimate branch.

And indeed: it was the Arms of the Earls of Munster (extinct in 2000) an illegitimate branch of the royal family which started with the eldest illegitimate son of the King, with an actress.

 

[Spheno]

I hope we all can still contribute questions about Diana's ancestry/bloodline.

Who are some interesting English/British noble families she descends from--that we haven't discussed? Even though, of course, this is opinion.

you can find all families from all your lists
Person Page

 

[QueenElizabeth2Fan]

OK. I'm not really that much into tracing family trees and such but you might find this interesting.

Recently I posted about Maurice Roche, 4th Baron Fermoy who's wife was Lady Ruth Fermoy, a good friend of the Queen Mum. Going back one step furthur, we have American socialite Frances Work who married James, 3rd Baron Fermoy who's oldest son was Maurice. So that makes her Diana's great grandmother.

Another interesting tidbit is that Harry and William, having Frances Work Roche as a great great grandmother, through this lineage they also have Oliver Platt, an American actor who shares the same great great grandmother.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frances_Ellen_Work

https://famouskin.com/famous-kin-ch...cess+diana&via=6317+james+boothby+burke+roche

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Platt

So, this kind of shows that should Harry and Meghan Markle get engaged and married, he wouldn't be the first in his family tree to have married an American.

Very true!

I read in an article that William and Harry are descended from Mary Boleyn (sister of Anne) through three separate lines.
Is that true?

 

[Ish]

If you go over to the British Royal Family Genealogy thread, I've already posted those 3 lines for you.

 

[QueenElizabeth2Fan]

Is Diana related to any Irish noble families?

 

[Sophia]

Question

Hi, my name is Sophia, and because of the information you have been sharing I have found out that I am related to Princess Diana! I know I am related to King Henry the 4th of France, so it was quite something to know she was related as well. My last name is Carey, I am a bloodline Carey, so I am also related to Robert, Henry, and all the other Carey's you have mentioned. I just was wondering if anyone knew how Diana was related to the Carey's? To Robert in particular. Was he an uncle of some sorts? Or a cousin? It would be amazing if someone knew! You have all been a real help!! Thank you!

 

[Leslie Mae]

A collection of Countess Raine Spencer artefacts are to be auctioned off at Christie's in London
Charlotte Di Carcaci, daughter of Raine shares details of her mum's life

Diana’s stepmother Raine Spencer artefacts up for auction | Daily Mail Online

Why would anyone want "artefacts" from that woman's life? It's not like she was anybody other than the "stepmother of" a woman who was unhappily married to a future king. Why would anybody pay for her junk? None of the things pictured look to be worth much.

Having said that . . . the auction will probably bring in millions. It's not like rich people have taste so they can be persuaded to buy anything.

 

[Denville]

I'd say that Raine was definitely a personalty and well known in in her own right and as the wife of a rich man I am sure that her things are worth sioemthing.

 

[QueenElizabeth2Fan]

Nobody seemed to answer my question about if Diana is related to any Irish noble families.
Here's a new question i have: Is she related to any Kings or Queens of Italy (that ruled after Italy unified)?

 

[Pranter]

Queen E2 fan...you can probably google Diana's family tree and find all that out.


LaRae