The Spencer Family, Ancestry and Althorp 1: Ending Aug. 2023


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wow.. thanks.. very interesting indeed.. another legitimate royal descent..
 
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Sangre_Real016 said:
true enough.. but, from i understand, a morganatic marriage is still for all intents and purposes legitimate.. also, despite the big fuss and scandal of Charles I Louis' divorce with his first wife, Charlotte of Hesse-Kassel, his children with Marie Louise were acknowledged by the Palatinate and were given titles of Count and Countess of the Palatinate.. also, England was not a solid practitioner of the idea of Morganatic marriage..
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It's not that easy. Karoline of the Palatinate, in case she was recognised in the UK as legitimate, would have been higher up the line of sucession than her aunt Electress Sophie, because her father was Sophie's elder brother. As she had a son at the time of the decision on the Hanoveran succession and was married to a then British duke, I guess she was not deemed legitimate enough to inherit her grandmother Elizabeth Stuart's right to the British thrones. While her aunt Sophia was.
 
She descends from both of Mary Stewart's children.

Robert III
Lady Mary Stewart
William Douglas, 2nd Earl of Angus
George Douglas, 4th Earl of Angus
Archibald Douglas, 5th Earl of Angus
Sir William Douglas
Sir Archibald Douglas
William Douglas, 9th Earl of Angus
Margaret Douglas married William Forbes of Monymusk
Sir William Forbes of Monymusk, 1st Bt
Sir William Forbes of Monymusk, 2nd Bt.
Sir John Forbes of Monymusk, 3rd Bt
John Forbes 4th of Boyndlie
George Forbes, 4th of Boyndlie
John Forbes, 5th of Boyndlie
Theodore Forbes
Katherine Scott Forbes
Jane Crombie
Ruth Littlejohn
Ruth Sylvia Gill
Frances Ruth Burke Roche
Diana
 
I found another link between C&D. Both descend from James I daughter Joan. They are 14th cousins once removed, having the common ancestor of Claud Hamilton 1st Lord Paisley. Unfortunately it does not go to her mother's line but through Cynthia Hamilton.

They both have several Douglas', Hamilton's and Gordon's through their family so they might be related on several more fronts and we don't want to find out that they share so much DNA that they are particularly sisters....
(no one wants that!!!):ohmy:
 
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Kataryn said:
It's not that easy. Karoline of the Palatinate, in case she was recognised in the UK as legitimate, would have been higher up the line of sucession than her aunt Electress Sophie, because her father was Sophie's elder brother. As she had a son at the time of the decision on the Hanoveran succession and was married to a then British duke, I guess she was not deemed legitimate enough to inherit her grandmother Elizabeth Stuart's right to the British thrones. While her aunt Sophia was.
Click to expand...

one great reason why Karoline was not chosen and was passed over for Sophia is because, Karoline was long dead by that time.. also, their marriage was done in Europe where the practice of morganatic marriage is strictly followed.. this would make their children legitimate, but does not possess any dynastic right to their father's claim.. i believe that the reason why Electress Sophia of Hanover was chosen because she's the senior most protestant relative of King James I.. but your are right, that Electress Sophia was not the senior most cognatic descendant of King James I to be protestant.. i believe it was Frederica Mildmay, Countess of Mértola, granddaughter of Charles I Louis of the Palatinate via her daughter Karoline of the Palatinate..

Electress Sophia being chosen as the heir is the best thing they can thing off.. despite of legitimate birth, Federica would be considered to low in rank to succeed Queen Anne.. plus, powerful countries such as the France, Spain, Modena and the Papal States still contest that James Francis Edward Stuart is the legitimate king.. declaring a mere countess of morganatic birth and who possessed no territorial power despite being of legitimate birth would weaken the claim for a new monarch.. Opposing countries would have a field day if parliament would chose Feredica as queen.. also, 56 people who had more legitimate hereditary claims were bypassed in favor of Sophia..

Because of the Act of Settlement, ensuring the Protestant Succession, on the death of Queen Anne on 12 Aug 1714, she was succeeded by the Elector of Hanover. This succession bypassed more than fifty people then living who had better claims to the throne according to primogeniture. The following chart will show those people, and only those who are relevant to this issue are included. Those living at Queen Anne's death are in capital letters:

King James I & VI of England and Scotland (156601625) and his wife Anne of Denmark (1574-1619) had the following relevant issue:
1. King Charles I of England and Scotland (1600-1649); m.Henriette Marie of France (1609-1669)
1.1. King Charles II of England & Scotland (1630-1685); m. Caterina of Braganza (1638-1705)
1.2. King James II & VII of England & Scotland, deposed 1688/9 by William & Mary; (1633-1701); m.1st Anne Hyde (1637-1671); m.2nd Maria Beatrice d'Este of Modena (1658-1718)
1.2.1. JAMES EDWARD Stuart, "The Old Pretender" (1688-1766); m.1719 Clementina Sobieska (1702-1735)
1.2.2. Queen Mary II of England and Scotland (1662-1695); reigned 1689-95; m.King William III (below)
1.2.3.Queen Anne of Great Britain (1665-1714); m.Pr George of Denmark
(1653-1708)
1.3. Mary (1631-1660); m.Pr Willem II of Orange-Nassau, Stattholder of the Netherlands (1625-1650)
1.3.1. King William III of England and Scotland, etc (1650-1702); reigned
1689-1702; m.Queen Mary II (above)
1.4. Henrietta (1644-1670); m.1661 Philippe, Duc d'Orleans (1640-1701)
1.4.1. ANNE d'ORLEANS (1669-1728); m.1684 King Vittorio Amedeo II of Sardinia (1666-1732)
1.4.1.1. VITTORIO AMEDEO OF SAVOY, Prince of Piedmont (1699-1715)
1.4.1.2. King CARLO EMANUELE III OF SARDINIA (1701-1773)
1.4.1.3. Marie Adelaide of Savoy (1685-1712); m.Louis, Dauphin of France
(1682-1712)
1.4.2.1. LOUIS, DAUPHIN OF FRANCE [later, King Louis XV] (1710-1774)
1.4.3. Maria Luisa of Savoy (1688-14 Feb 1714); m.King Felipe V of Spain
(1683-1746)
1.4.3.1. LUIS, INFANTE OF SPAIN [later, King Luis I] (1707-1724)
1.4.3.2. INFANTE FELIPE OF SPAIN (1712-1719)
1.4.3.3. INFANTE FERNANDO OF SPAIN [later, King Fernando VI] (1713-1759)
2. Elizabeth (1596-1662); m.Friedrich V, Elector Palatine, King of Bohemia
1619-21 (1596-1632)
2.1. Karl I Ludwig, Elector Palatine (1617-1680); m.1st 1650 (div 1657)
Landgravine Charlotte of Hesse-Cassel (1627-1686); m.2nd 1658 Baroness Marie Luise von Degenfeld
(1634-1677)
2.1.1. LISABETH CHARLOTTE (1652-1721); m.Philippe, Duc d'Orleans (1640-1701)
2.1.1.1. PHILIPPE II, DUC d'ORLEANS (1674-1723); m.Francoise Marie of France (1677-1749)
2.1.1.1.1. LOUIS [later, Duc] d'ORLEANS (1703-1752)
2.1.1.1.2. LOUISE d'ORLEANS (1695-1719); m.Charles, Duc de Berry (1686-1714)
2.1.1.1.3. MARIE ADELAIDE d'ORLEANS (1698-1743)
2.1.1.1.4. CHARLOTTE d'ORLEANS (1700-1761); m.1720 Francesco III d'Este, Duke of Modena (1698-1780; below)
2.1.1.1.5. ELIZABETH d'ORLEANS (1709-1742); m.1723 King Luis I of Spain
2.1.1.2. ELIZABETH d'ORLEANS (1676-1744); m.1698 Duke Leopold of Lorraine (1679-1729)
2.1.1.2.1. LEOPOLD OF LORRAINE (1707-1723)
2.1.1.2.2. FRANCIS STEPHEN OF LORRAINE (1708-1765); as of 1745 he was the EMPEROR FRANZ; m.1736 Archduchess Maria Theresia of Austria (1717-1780)
2.1.1.2.3. CHARLES OF LORRAINE (1712-1780)
2.1.1.2.4. ELIZABETH THERESE OF LORRAINE (1711-1741); m.1737 King Carlo Emanuele III of Sardinia (1701-1773)
2.1.1.2.5. ANNE CHARLOTTE OF LORRAINE (17 May 1714-1773)
2.1.2. Karoline, Raugraefin (1659-1696); m.1683 Meinhard von Schomberg, Duke of Leinster (1641-1719)
2.1.2.1. Lady Mary Schomberg ( - ); m.CtDegenfeld; she was probably alive at Anne's death, and may have had living kids, but I have no further details
2.1.2.2. LADY FREDERICA SCHOMBERG (d.1751); m.1st Robert D'Arcy, Earl of Holdernesse (d.1722); m.2d 1724 Benjamin Mildmay, Earl Fitzwalter (d.1756)
2.2. Eduard, Ct Palatine von Simmern (1625-1663); m.1645 Anna Gonzaga
(1616-1684)
2.2.1. Luise Marie, Css Palatine von Simmern (1647-1679); m.1671 Fst Karl
Theodor zu Salm (1645-1710)
2.2.1.1. PRINCE LUDWIG OTTO ZU SALM (1674-1738); m.1700 Pss Albertine Johannette of
Nassau-Hadamar (1679-1716)
2.2.1.1.1. PRINCESS DOROTHEA FRANZISKA AGNES ZU SALM (1702-1751); m.1719 Prince Nikolaus Leopold zu Salm-Salm (d.1770)
2.2.1.1.2.Pss ELISABETH ALEXANDRINE CHARLOTTE ZU SALM (1704-1739); m.1721 Pr Claude Lamoral de Ligne (d.1766)
2.2.1.1.3. Pss CHRISTINE ANNA LUISE OSWALDINE ZU SALM (1707-1777); m.1st 1726 Pr Joseph of Hesse-Rheinfels-Rotenburg (d.1744); m.2d 1753 Fst Nikolaus Leopold zu Salm-Salm (d.1770)
2.2.1.2. Pss ELEONORE CHRISTINA ZU SALM (1678-1737); M.1713 Conrad, Duc d'Ursel (d.1738); they may have had a kid before Anne's death, but I don't know for sure
2.2.2. ANNE, Css PALATINE VON SIMMERN (1648-1723); m.1663 Henri Julius, Pr de Conde (1643-1709)
2.2.2.1. LOUIS III, DUC DE BOURBON, PRINCE DE CONDE (1668-1710); m.1685 Louise Francoise de Bourbon (1673-1743)
2.2.2.1.1. LOUIS IV HENRI, DUC DE BOURBON, PRINCE DE CONDE (1692-1740); m.1713 Marie Anne de Conty (below)
2.2.2.1.2. CHARLES DE CONDE, PRINCE DE CHAROLAIS (1700-1760)
2.2.2.1.3. LOUIS DE CONDE, COMTE DE CLERMONT (1709-1771)
2.2.2.1.4. MARIE ANNE DE CONDE (1690-1760)
2.2.2.1.5. LOUISE ELIZABETH DE CONDE (1693-1775); m.1713 Louis Armand II, Pr de Conty (d.1727; below)
2.2.2.1.6. LOUISE ANNE DE CONDE (1695-1758)
2.2.2.1.7. MARIE ANNE DE CONDE (1697-1741); m.ca 1719 Louis de Melun, Duc de Joyeuse (d.1724)
2.2.2.1.8. HENRIETTE LOUISE DE CONDE (1703-1772)
2.2.2.1.9. ELIZABETH ALEXANDRINE DE CONDE (1705-1765)
2.2.2.2. MARIE THERESE DE CONDE (1666-1732); m.1688 Francois Louis, Pr de Conty (d.1709)
2.2.2.2.1. LOUIS ARMAND II, PR DE CONTY (1695-1727); m.1713 Louise Elizabeth de Conde (above)
2.2.2.2.2.MARIE ANNE DE CONTY (1689-1720); m.1713 Louis IV Henri, Pr de Conde (above)
2.2.2.2.3. LOUISE ADELAIDE DE CONTY (1696-1750)
2.2.2.3. ANNE LOUISE DE CONDE (1676-1753); m.1692 Louis Auguste de Bourbon, Duc de Maine (d.1736)
2.2.2.3.1. LOUIS II AUGUSTE, DUC d'AUMALE (1700-1755)
2.2.2.3.2. LOUIS CHARLES, PRINCE DE DOMBES (1701-1775)
2.2.2.3.3. LOUISE FRANCOISE, Mlle DU MAINE (1707-1743)
2.2.2.4. MARIE ANNE DE CONDE (1678-1718); m.1710 Louis Joseph de Bourbon, Duc de Vendome (d.1712)
2.2.3. BENEDIKTE HENRIETTE, Css PALATINE VON SIMEMRN (1652-1730); m.1668 Duke Johann Friedrich of Brunswick-Lueneburg (1625-1679)
2.2.3.1. Charlotte (1671-1710); m.1696 Rinaldo III d'Este, Duke of Modena
(1655-1737)
2.2.3.1.1. FRANCESCO III, DUKE OF MODENA (1698-1780); m.1720 Charlotte d'Orleans (above)
2.2.3.1.2. GIOVANNI FEDERIGO d'ESTE (1700-1727)
2.2.3.1.3. BENEDETTA d'ESTE (1697-1777)
2.2.3.1.4. AMALIA d'ESTE (1699-1778)
2.2.3.1.5. HENRIETTA d'ESTE (1702-1777); m.1st 1728 Antonio Farnese (d.1731); m.2d 1740 Ldgve Leopold of Hesse-Darmstadt (d.1764)
2.2.3.2. HENRIETTE OF BRUNSWICK-LUENEBURG (1672-1737)
2.2.3.3. WILHELMINE AMALIE OF BRUINSWICK-LUENEBURG (1673-1742); m.1699 Emperor Josef I (d.1711)
2.2.3.3.1.Archduchess MARIA JOSEFA OF AUSTRIA (1699-1757); m.1719 Elector Friedrich August II of Saxony, King of Poland (1696-1763)
2.2.3.3.2.Archduchess MARIA AMALIA OF AUSTRIA (1701-1756); m.1722 Elector Karl Albert of Bavaria, who became Emperor Karl VII (1697-1745)
2.3.Sophie of the Palatinate (1630-18 Jun 1714); m.1658 Elector Ernst August of Hanover (1629-1698)
2.3.1.ELECTOR GEORGE OF HANOVER -- became KING GEORGE I OF THE UNITED KINGDOM

we are talking about playing a game of thrones.. not all legitimate descendants are able to take their hereditary rights.. Wilhelm Karl, Duke of Urach was the legitimate heir to the throne of Monaco, but was passed over for his illegitimate niece Charlotte.. Alfonso de la Cerda, ancestor of the Dukes of Medinaceli is the legitimate heir to the throne of Castile, but was usurped by his uncle Sancho IV.. saying that her being of illegitimate line is the reason why she was debarred from the line of succession would be too absurd seeing there are other criteria to consider and Sophia fits the job perfectly..
 
Sangre_Real016 said:
This succession bypassed more than fifty people then living who had better claims to the throne according to primogeniture. The following chart will show those people, and only those who are relevant to this issue are included.
Click to expand...

The point is that all these people were Catholics. And the Catholic claim lay with the Stuart pretenders. No other Catholic had a better claim than the Stuarts.
 
Kataryn said:
The point is that all these people were Catholics. And the Catholic claim lay with the Stuart pretenders. No other Catholic had a better claim than the Stuarts.
Click to expand...

true enough.. but there is no other descendants from morganatic marriage too.. Catholics were debarred from the line of succession.. children of morganatic marriages does not inherit dynastic rights.. the Stuarts are out of the picture.. catholic relatives are also removed from the line of succession.. there is one close protestant relative but with obscure origins since she is a product of an unequal marriage.. so all bets goes to the nearest Protestant relative with unquestionable royal pedigree.. plus the fact that Sophia is a crowned ruler add more in the criteria.. given all the facts, Sophia is the best candidate.. but does that prove Karoline's illegitimacy? the answer is no..
 
The current Duke Of Abercorn, James Hamilton is a first cousin of Diana's father, the 8th Earl Spencer. This makes him and William cousins as well but I don't what number. Anybody know?
I'm terrible at this stuff haha :bang:
 
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Duke-of-Earl said:
The current Duke Of Abercorn, James Hamilton is a first cousin of Diana's father, the 8th Earl Spencer. This makes him and William cousins as well but I don't what number. Anybody know?
I'm terrible at this stuff haha :bang:
Click to expand...

The closest common ancestor of James Hamilton, 5th Duke of Abercorn, and Prince William was James Hamilton, 3rd Duke of Abercorn.

James Hamilton, 3rd Duke of Abercorn -> James Hamilton, 4th Duke of Abercorn -> James Hamilton, 5th Duke of Abercorn
James Hamilton, 3rd Duke of Abercorn -> Lady Cynthia Hamilton -> John Spencer, 8th Earl Spencer -> Lady Diana Spencer - Prince William

That makes Prince William and the 5th Duke of Abercorn first cousins twice removed.
 
I do think a documentary should be made on Althorp. I think there's a great deal of history behind the estate.
 
Just reading all the info on the estate site, it's got tons of history.


LaRae
 
IMO, if there was no connection to Diana, then this House doesn't really rate a mention. I have a number of friends in the US and I have never listed this as a must visit place. Outside of London, I would say Windsor (history across the ages + royal factor); Blenheim - architectural masterpiece; Chatsworth (home of the Dukes of DEvonshire) for the grandeur and scale of English nobility and for the rugged coastal view - Alnwick the seat of the Dukes of Northumberland.

There are probably a 100 houses like Althorp so it isn't outstanding.
 
I think Althorp rates a documentary. Yes, there are many homes like it, but perhaps this just means there should be many documentaries.

Here is a very short clip of Tim Wonnacott there which I saw in an episode of Bargain Hunt. Tim Wonnacott of BBC's Bargain Hunt visits Althorp House I don't know whether this has been posted earlier in the thread, and it's a very long thread so forgive me if I don't check through it.

The home has an interesting history, and is full of interesting and significant paintings and items. I also saw Fiona Bruce's visit for Antiques Roadshow, but I can't find a video of that.
 
Lovelydiana said:
I was thinking about this a couple days ago I know a lot about Diana but I was jst wondering if Diana had any cousins? I don't think i've read that her father and mother had sisters or brothers and I hve never heard of her aunts or uncles. So did Diana have any aunts or uncles or any cousins growing up?
Click to expand...
I heard she has 6th cousins from--- a very knowledgeable source-- so she must have 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th cousins as well.
 
figureskater said:
I heard she has 6th cousins from--- a very knowledgeable source-- so she must have 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th cousins as well.
Click to expand...

Having 1st through 5th cousins isn't the result of having 6th cousins. You only have 1st cousins if your parents had siblings who in turn had children.

Diana's father, Edward John Spencer, 8th Earl Spencer, had one sibling, a sister named Anne, who had 5 children - Elizabeth, David, Richard, Michael, and Diana.

Diana's mother, Hon. Francis Ruth Burke Roche, had a brother, Edmund, and a sister, Mary. Each had 4 children; Edmund: Francis, Elizabeth, Patrick, and Edmund; Mary: Alexandra, Antonia, Joanna, and Edward.
 
NGalitzine said:
People go on about Diana's links but her ancestry has some others in it as well. She also passed along some Indian abd Amernian bloodlines to her sons through a family housekeeper who bore one of her ancestors a child.
Prince William's Indian ancestry revealed by DNA analysis - Indian Express
Click to expand...

The original article is from the Times. I didn't know about this thread and so I've posted the info under Duke of Cambridge. Mods can move them here if its more appropriate.
 
NGalitzine said:
People go on about Diana's aristocratic European links but her ancestry has some others in it as well. She also passed along some Indian and Amernian bloodlines to her sons through a family housekeeper who bore one of her ancestors a child.
Prince William's Indian ancestry revealed by DNA analysis - Indian Express
Click to expand...

And lets not forget the American angle on Diana's mother's side in Frank and Ellen Work. Their daughter Frances (Fannie) was among the creme de la creme of New York society in her time. TBH, I think this is where the tendency to use Frances or Francis stems from in Diana's family.

I think it makes for some interesting reading.

Spencers |
 
What I found interesting about the Indian link, is of course that William will one day be Head of the Commonwealth. ( I know this is an assumption because it is not automatic but it is a safe assumption.)
 
Andrew Parker Bowles is a 4th cousin to Diana

George Charles Bingham, 3rd Earl of Lucan> Charles George, 4th Earl of Lucan> Rosaline> Cynthia Hamilton> John Spencer> Diana

George Charles Bingham, 3rd Earl of Lucan> Augusta> Mildred Sturt> Cynthia Cadogan> Ann De Trafford > APB

I knew there was link with Diana and Andrew but not the one I was looking for. I am still looking for link between the Fermoys & the PBs.

Any help?
 
"Secrets of Althorp: The Spencers"

For those of you in the U.S. who might be interested, tomorrow, Sunday, July 7th @ 8pm ET, PBS will air "Secrets of Althorp: The Spencers" a documentary about Diana's family home narrated by her brother, Charles.
 
Cannot wait to see it! Saw it advertised on PBS a couple hours ago!


LaRae
 
Saw the program was disappointed, it was made for the American audience. They spent about 15 minutes of a 52 minute program on Diana.

Charles Spencer didn't sound as arrogant as I thought he would but then he was promoting his family home to the American market.

When he was describing the Duchess of Marlborough he sounded like he was describing Diana.

Seeing Althrop had 90 rooms and 31 bedrooms, I can understand why Diana was disappointed with Highgrove & Kensingston Palace. It probably felt like she had married down.
 
I saw the Althorp program and found it interesting. And you are right, he didn't sound arrogant.
 
Queen Camilla said:
Saw the program was disappointed, it was made for the American audience. They spent about 15 minutes of a 52 minute program on Diana.

Charles Spencer didn't sound as arrogant as I thought he would but then he was promoting his family home to the American market.

When he was describing the Duchess of Marlborough he sounded like he was describing Diana.

Seeing Althrop had 90 rooms and 31 bedrooms, I can understand why Diana was disappointed with Highgrove & Kensingston Palace. It probably felt like she had married down.
Click to expand...

I was irritated that they obviously mispronounced Althorp for the American audience as Al-thorp...when in the uk and if you visit there they make a point of telling you it is pronounced Al- trup.
 
I like that the program helped highlight the Spencer & Washington link.
 
MichelleQ2 said:
I was irritated that they obviously mispronounced Althorp for the American audience as Al-thorp...when in the uk and if you visit there they make a point of telling you it is pronounced Al- trup.
Click to expand...
When the current Earl was a reporter for NBC, he pronounced both his then title (Viscount Althorp) and the family home as "All-thorp". Diana did the same. I've got it on video somewhere...
 
I watched the Althorp documentary Sunday and considering the program was a little less than an hour, it is interesting what Earl Spencer chose to include. I enjoyed the various stories including one about a previous Earl Spencer (Charles' grandfather?) snatching away Winston Churchill's cigar as he was smoking it in the Althorp library. The close connection between the Spencer family and their neighbors, George Washington's ancestors, including their falling on hard times and receiving assistance from the Spencers. The architectural history and recent restoration was also very interesting esp. the story surrounding the leaking roof and Charles's father leaving him the task of replacing it as well as replacing the tile façade which covered the original red bricks. The Althorpe Estate is very beautiful and despite some of the controversy over Charles Spencer (private life, etc) he seems to be fulfilling the family legacy by keeping the Althorp Estate "alive". Glad I watched, I learned something:)
 
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