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  #401  
Old 01-13-2018, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post

the Windsors may enjoy more royal ancestors in the more previous generations but the Spencers actually have more royall ancestors of nominally higher rank in the more later generations.. why is that you may ask? well probably because the Spencers' have had more ancestors who were Kings and Emperors while the Windsors' royal ancestors includes mostly Dukes, Landragves and Counts.. we'll i guess it all goes to what one actually defines as "royal".."
This statement is incorrect. Prince Charles has more royal ancestors Diana. Yes, it is true that you can trace Diana's ancestry back to Kings and Emperors but the majority of them were Charles' ancestors too so that doesn't give Diana more royal ancestors. And his lines were on the right side of the blanket, capable of inheriting the throne, while many of Diana's were illegitimate. And finally, the vast majority of Diana's ancestors were *ruled by* Charles's.

I've compiled lists of monarchs unique to Diana's ancestry, and those who are unique to Charles's:

MONARCHS FROM WHOM DIANA DESCENDED FROM CHARLES DOES NOT

Diana inherited her "unique" royal lines through two ancestors: (1) Queen Henrietta Maria (1609-1669), wife of King Charles I and daughter of King Henry IV of France, and (2) Charlotte de La Tremoille (1599-1664) wife of James Stanley 7th Earl of Derby.

BRITAIN
Charles and Diana both descend from King James I (1566-1625). Diana also descended from his son Charles I (1600-1649) and Charles I's sons Charles II (1630-1685) and James II (1633-1701). She descended from Charles II through two of his illegitimate sons, Henry Fitzroy 1st Duke of Grafton (1663-1690) and Charles Lennox 1st Duke of Richmond (1672-1723), and from James II through his illegitimate daughter Henrietta FitzJames (c1669-1730).

Diana’s nearest British monarch from whom she descended in completely legitimate lines was Henry VII (1457-1509).

FRANCE
Charles and Diana both descend from King Charles VI of France (1368-1422). Diana also descended from Charles VII (1403-1461), through both Queen Henrietta Maria and Charlottte de La Tremoille, and from Henry IV (1553-1610), who was the father of Queen Henrietta Maria.

NAVARRE
Charles and Diana both descend from Queen Eleanor of Navarre (1426-1479). Through Queen Henrietta Maria Diana also descended from several of Eleanor’s successors: Catherine (1468-1517), Henry II (1503-1555), Joanna III (1528-1572), and Henry V (1553-1610) who later became Henry IV of France.

SPAIN
Charles and Diana both descend from Joanna Queen of Castile (1498-1555), daughter of Ferdinand II of Aragon (1452-1516) and Isabella I of Castile (1451-1504). Diana’s descent was through Queen Henrietta Maria. She also descended from Ferdinand’s uncle King Alfonso V of Aragon (1396-1458) through Charlotte de La Tremoille.

NAPLES
Diana’s ancestor Alfonso V of Aragon also ruled as King Alfonso I of Naples & Sicily. Her line goes through his illegitimate son King Ferdinand I of Naples (1423-1494) and Ferdinand’s son King Frederick IV (1452-1504).

CYPRUS
Charles and Diana both descend from King Hugh I of Cyprus (c1194-1218). Through Charlotte de La Tremoille Diana also descended from several of his successors: Hugh III (d. 1284), Hugh IV (1300-1359), James I (1334-1398), and Janus (c1374-1432).


MONARCHS FROM WHOM CHARLES DESCENDS BUT DIANA DID NOT


BRITAIN
Charles descends legitimately from several additional monarchs: George I (1660-1727), George II (1683-1760), George III (1738-1820), Victoria (1819-1901), Edward VII (1841-1910), George V (1865-1936), George VI (1894-1942), and Elizabeth II (born 1926).

GREECE
Charles is a descendant of King George I of the Hellenes (1845-1913).

DENMARK
Charles and Diana were both descendants of King Frederick II of Denmark (1534-1588). Charles also descends from Christian IV (1577-1648), Frederick III (1609-1670), Christian V (1646-1699), Frederick IV (1699-1746), Christian VI (1699-1746), Frederick V (1723-1766), and Christian IX (1818-1906).

SWEDEN
Charles descends from several Kings of Sweden: Gustaf I (1496-1560), Charles IX (1550-1611), Charles X (1622- 1660), Charles XI (1655-1697)

PRUSSIA
Charles descends from the following Kings of Prussia: Frederick I (1657-1713), Frederick William I (1688-1740), Frederick William II (1744-1797), Frederick William III (1770-1840)

RUSSIA
Charles descends from the following Emperors/Empresses of Russia: Michael (1596-1645), Alexis (1629-1676), Peter I (1672-1725), Catherine I (1684-1727), Peter III (1728-1762), Catherine II (1729-1796), Paul I (1754-1801), Nicholas I (1796-1855)
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  #402  
Old 01-13-2018, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenElizabeth2Fan View Post
I know that Diana is probably related to Jaquetta of Luxembourg. But, is Jaquetta an ancestor of the current Luxembourg Royal Family?
Yes, Jacquetta was the great-great-great-great-grandmother of King James I and VI (1566-1625) who is the ancestor of all the present-day European royal families, the Luxembourgs included.

Start here with Jacquetta and work your way down:

Jacquetta de Luxembourg: Genealogics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
Many Spencers have almost sat the English/British throne..

First was Anne Stanley, Countess of Castlehaven, granddaughter of Sir John Spencer of Althorp, who was the heir presumptive to the English throne upon the death of Queen Elizabeth I according to the will of Henry VIII and the Third Succession Act..

Then we had the first Lady Diana Spencer who almost married Frederick, Prince of Wales.. Lady Diana was at the top of the list of eligible high society brides due to both her looks and her closeness to the tremendously rich Dowager Duchess of Marlborough.. Among her suitors were the grandson of the Duke of Somerset, the Viscount Weymouth, the Earl of Shaftesbury and the Earl of Chesterfield who noted that "The person, the merit and the family of Lady Diana Spencer are objects so valuable that they must necessarily have..." the marriage to the Prince of Wales was vetoed by the prime Minister and the King preferred a European match..

Third was the most previous Lady Diana Spencer who in 1981 did marry the Prince of Wales but the marriage sadly ended in divorce and her untimely death..

still, the second in line to the British throne is half Spencer..
.
A Spencer has sat on the British throne since 1936 when Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, wife of George VI, became Queen Consort. She was a descendant of Lady Dorothy Spencer (1640-1670) daughter of Henry Spencer 1st Earl of Sunderland and wife of George Savile 1st Viscount Halifax.

And of course when Elizabeth's husband died in 1952 her daughter Elizabeth II ascended the throne.
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  #403  
Old 01-13-2018, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post


never said that as well.. it is true that the Windsors also descends from the Kings of France and Holy Roman Emperors.. but those individuals are way back into their ancestry.. for example, the Windsors descends from Charles VI of France who ruled in 1380 and Henry VII, Holy Roman Emperor who ruled in 1308.. if you can see, these kings and emperors were from such a distant relation unlike the Spencers who descends from King Henry IV of France who ruled in 1572 and Ferdinand I, Holy Roman Emperor who ruled in 1526.. now from that we can say that the Spencers descends from all kings of France and Holy Roman Emperors before Henry IV and Ferdinand I, and that is 200 years or royal descent from kings and emperors compared to the Windsors..
This is inaccurate. The Windsors - both Elizabeth II and the Duke of Edinburgh - descend several times over from Emperor Ferdinand I's daughter Maria the wife of Duke William of Cleves-Julich-Berg. So no, their most recent Holy Roman Emperor ancestor wasn't Henry VII who died in 1308.

And Diana did NOT descend from ALL kings of France before Henry IV. Henry IV succeeded a very distant cousin as king. Diana descended from exactly TWO kings of France who weren't also ancestors of the Windsors.
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  #404  
Old 01-13-2018, 08:35 PM
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Gawin do you have a degree in history or do you do geneology as a profession?

Just curious! We have at least one other person here that has degrees in this area.


LaRae
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  #405  
Old 01-13-2018, 08:41 PM
Serene Highness
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
Gawin do you have a degree in history or do you do geneology as a profession?

Just curious! We have at least one other person here that has degrees in this area.


LaRae
Degree in history and genealogy as an obsession.
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  #406  
Old 01-13-2018, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawin View Post
Degree in history and genealogy as an obsession.

Cool! I love history and genealogy!


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  #407  
Old 01-13-2018, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
one great reason why Karoline was not chosen and was passed over for Sophia is because, Karoline was long dead by that time.. also, their marriage was done in Europe where the practice of morganatic marriage is strictly followed.. this would make their children legitimate, but does not possess any dynastic right to their father's claim.. i believe that the reason why Electress Sophia of Hanover was chosen because she's the senior most protestant relative of King James I.. but your are right, that Electress Sophia was not the senior most cognatic descendant of King James I to be protestant.. i believe it was Frederica Mildmay, Countess of Mértola, granddaughter of Charles I Louis of the Palatinate via her daughter Karoline of the Palatinate..

Electress Sophia being chosen as the heir is the best thing they can thing off.. despite of legitimate birth, Federica would be considered to low in rank to succeed Queen Anne.. plus, powerful countries such as the France, Spain, Modena and the Papal States still contest that James Francis Edward Stuart is the legitimate king.. declaring a mere countess of morganatic birth and who possessed no territorial power despite being of legitimate birth would weaken the claim for a new monarch.. Opposing countries would have a field day if parliament would chose Feredica as queen.. also, 56 people who had more legitimate hereditary claims were bypassed in favor of Sophia..
.
This is incorrect. The Act of Settlement chose Electress Sophia as heir because she was the nearest *legitimate* Protestant heir.

The children of Elector Charles Louis were *not* passed over because they were born from a morganatic marriage. England didn't recognize the concept of morganatic marriages. A commoner who married a royal became a royal and any children born from that marriage were entitled to inherit the royal parent's titles. For example, when George III's brother William Henry Duke of Gloucester married Maria Walpole, the illegitimate daughter of an Earl's son, she became HRH the Duchess of Gloucester, and their children were Princess Sophia and Prince William. William inherited his father's title and married his cousin Princess Mary, daughter of George III. Despite the fact that Maria was a commoner, and the marriage was opposed by George III, the marriage was considered equal, not morganatic.

This is why the Royal Marriages Act was passed, requiring permission from the sovereign to marry, in order to prevent more royal marriages to commoners who then became royal.

So, in the eyes of the English, the morganatic status of Charles Louis' children wasn't the issue. The real issue was their questionable legitimacy. Charles married their mother while his first wife was still alive, having granted himself a divorce. But the English didn't recognize the right of a sovereign to simply end his own marriage -look at the trouble Henry VIII went through with Catherine of Aragon not to mention George IV's failure when he wanted to divorce Caroline of Brunswick.

To sum it up, Charles Louis' second family was barred from the English throne because the English considered his marriage to be bigamous and the children born from it illegitimate.
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  #408  
Old 01-13-2018, 09:02 PM
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Look forward to more of your posts Gawin. French history has never been my area, but I am fascinated. Glad to see you joining the fray
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  #409  
Old 01-13-2018, 11:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenElizabeth2Fan View Post
I have a couple questions:
Is Diana directly related to:
1) Deborah Mitford, Duchess of Devonshire?;
2) The Monegasque Royal Family?;
3) One of Lady Jane Grey's relatives?;
and
4) Lucrezia Borgia? I know she's related to Caterina Sforza, which is why I'm asking.
and, finally:
5) Does she have any Byzantine lineage?

I've tried Googling "Princess Diana Ancestry" and I've only found one or two interesting articles, but they mention the Windsor side and/or Diana's other ancestries.

#1 - DEBORAH MITFORD DUCHESS OF DEVONSHIRE


Diana and Deborah Duchess of Devonshire were very distant cousins. I believe you would need to go back to the 17th century to find a common ancestor.

There was a much closer connection through Deborah’s husband Andrew the 11th Duke of Devonshire:

James Hamilton 1st Duke of Abercorn (1811-1885) > James Hamilton 2nd Duke of Abercorn (1838-1913) > James Hamilton 3rd Duke of Abercorn (1869-1953) > Lady Cynthia Hamilton (1897-1972) > John Spencer 8th Earl Spencer (1924-1992) > Lady Diana Spencer (1961-1997)

James Hamilton 1st Duke of Abercorn (1811-1885) > Lady Maud Hamilton (1850-1932) > Lady Evelyn Petty FitzMaurice (1870-1960) > Edward Cavendish 10th Duke of Devonshire (1895-1950) > Andrew Cavendish 11th Duke of Devonshire (1920-2004)


#2 - MONESQUE ROYAL FAMILY

James Hamilton 6th Earl of Abercorn (d. 1734) > James Hamilton 7th Earl of Abercorn (1685-1744) > Hon. John Hamilton (1714-1755) > John Hamilton 1st Marquess of Abercorn (1756-1818) > James Hamilton Viscount Hamilton (1786-1814) > James Hamilton 1st Duke of Abercorn (1811-1885) > James Hamilton 2nd Duke of Abercorn (1838-1913) > James Hamilton 3rd Duke of Abercorn (1869-1953) > Lady Cynthia Hamilton (1897-1972) > John Spencer 8th Earl Spencer (1924-1992) > Lady Diana Spencer (1961-1997)

James Hamilton 6th Earl of Abercorn (d. 1734) > Hon. George Hamilton > Maria Hamilton (1724-1798) > William Thomas Beckford (1759-1844) > Susan Beckford (1786-1859) > William Douglas-Hamilton 11th Duke of Hamilton & 8th Duke of Brandon (1811-1863) > Lady Mary Douglas-Hamilton (1850-1922) > Louis II Prince of Monaco (1870-1949) > Charlotte Duchess de Valentinois (1898-1977) > Rainier III Prince of Monaco (1923-2005) > Albert II Prince of Monaco (b. 1958)

#3 - RELATIVE OF LADY JANE GREY

Diana descended from Lady Jane Grey’s sister Catherine (1540-1568) who married (in secret) Edward Seymour 1st Earl of Hertford.

#4 – LUCREZIA BORGIA

As far as I can tell they weren’t blood relatives but Diana was related to two of Lucrezia’s three husbands (who happened to be first cousins).

#2 Alfonso d’Aragon, Duke of Bisceglie (d. 1500), illegitimate son of King Alfonso II of Naples whose brother King Frederick IV was Diana’s ancestor.

#3 Alfonso d’Este, Duke of Ferrara & Modena (1476-1534), son of Leonora of Naples whose brother King Frederick IV was Diana’s ancestor.

#5 BYZANTINE LINEAGE

Yes – Diana has several lines of descent from the Byzantine Emperors (as does her former husband Charles).

To give just one example, she descended from Emperor Andronikos II Paliologus (1259-1332) who married (as his second wife) Yolande of Montferrat. Their son Theodore (c1290-1338) succeeded as Marquis of Montferrat and was the ancestor of Queen Henrietta Maria (1609-1669) wife of Charles I, who were Diana’s ancestors.
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  #410  
Old 01-14-2018, 04:17 AM
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Very interesting posts Gawin, thank you for sharing!
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  #411  
Old 01-14-2018, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawin View Post
This statement is incorrect. Prince Charles has more royal ancestors Diana. Yes, it is true that you can trace Diana's ancestry back to Kings and Emperors but the majority of them were Charles' ancestors too so that doesn't give Diana more royal ancestors. And his lines were on the right side of the blanket, capable of inheriting the throne, while many of Diana's were illegitimate. And finally, the vast majority of Diana's ancestors were *ruled by* Charles's.

I've compiled lists of monarchs unique to Diana's ancestry, and those who are unique to Charles's:
Oops - I need to make three corrections:

Charles also descends from King Charles VII of France (1403-1461). So Diana only descended from one King of France from whom the Windsors don't also descend - Henry IV (1553-1610).

Charles also descends from Queen Catherine of Navarre (1468-1517) so she isn't unique to Diana's ancestry.

I also need to add one more King of Sweden to Charles's ancestry: Charles II/VIII (1408-1470).
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  #412  
Old 04-08-2018, 07:05 AM
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Is Diana related to any of the Knollys children that Catherine Carey was mother of?
And is she also related to the Earls of Essex?
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  #413  
Old 04-08-2018, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenElizabeth2Fan View Post
Is Diana related to any of the Knollys children that Catherine Carey was mother of?
And is she also related to the Earls of Essex?
Yes, Diana was a direct descendant of Catherine (Carey) Knollys and Catherine's grandson the Earl of Essex.

So is Queen Elizabeth II, through her mother (Queen Mother), who was born Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon.
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  #414  
Old 04-08-2018, 02:10 PM
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Gawin, is Diana related to the Portuguese and Monegasque royal families?
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  #415  
Old 04-08-2018, 02:44 PM
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Yes, she was related to both. Because all these royal and noble families intermarried several times over there are multiple relationships but here are the ones I came up with:

PORTUGAL

Charles I (1600-1649) > Charles II (1630-1685) > Henry FitzRoy 1st Duke of Grafton (1663-1690) > Charles FitzRoy 2nd Duke of Grafton (1683-1757) > Lady Isabella FitzRoy (1726-1782) > Admiral Lord Hugh Seymour (1759-1801) > Col. Sir Horace Beauchamp Seymour (1791-1851) > Adelaide Horatia Elizabeth Seymour (1825-1877) > Charles Robert Spencer 6th Earl of Spencer (1857-1922) > Albert Edward John Spencer 7th Earl Spencer (1892-1975) > John Spencer 8th Earl Spencer (1924-1992) > Diana Princess of Wales (1961-1997)

Charles I (1600-1649) > Henrietta Anne (1644-1670) > Anne-Marie of Orleans (1669-1728) > Marie Adelaide of Savoy (1685-1712) > Louis XV of Frances (1710-1774) > Louise-Elisabeth (1727-1759) > Maria Luisa of Parma (1751-1819) > Carlota Joaquina of Spain (1775-1830) > Miguel of Portugal Duke of Braganza (1802-1866) > Miguel Duke of Braganza (1853-1927) > Duarte Nino Duke of Braganza, claimant to Portuguese throne (1907-1976) > Duarte Pio Duke of Braganza, current claimant to Portuguese throne (b. 1945)

MONACO

James Hamilton 6th Earl of Abercorn (d. 1734) > James Hamilton 7th Earl of Abercorn (1685-1744) > Hon. John Hamilton (1714-1755) > John Hamilton 1st Marquess of Abercorn (1756-1818) > James Hamilton Viscount Hamilton (1786-1814) > James Hamilton 1st Duke of Abercorn (1811-1885) > James Hamilton 2nd Duke of Abercorn (1838-1913) > James Hamilton 3rd Duke of Abercorn (1869-1953) > Lady Cynthia Hamilton (1897-1972) > John Spencer 8th Earl Spencer (1924-1992) > Diana Princess of Wales (1961-1997)

James Hamilton 6th Earl of Abercorn (d. 1734) > Hon. George Hamilton > Maria Hamilton (1724-1798) > William Thomas Beckford (1759-1844) > Susan Beckford (1786-1859) > William Douglas-Hamilton 11th Duke of Hamilton & 8th Duke of Brandon (1811-1863) > Lady Mary Douglas-Hamilton (1850-1922) > Louis II Prince of Monaco (1870-1949) > Charlotte Duchess de Valentinois (1898-1977) > Rainier III Prince of Monaco (1923-2005) > Albert II Prince of Monaco (b. 1958)
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  #416  
Old 04-08-2018, 03:04 PM
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One more thing:
I tried to search and see if Diana was related to any Irish, Scottish, Habsburg or Russian monarchs/nobles. I couldn't find anything.
Was she related to any of the four, if not all?
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  #417  
Old 04-08-2018, 04:06 PM
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Irish & Scottish - yes, the Spencers belonged to the English nobility and married into other noble families including Scottish & Irish, also Welsh for tht matter. Also, Diana was a descendant of King James I (also James VI of Scotland), son of Mary Queen of Scots and Henry Lord Darnley from the Scottish nobility.

Habsburg; yes, she was a descendant of Archduchess Johanna, the daughter of Emperor Ferdinand I. Here's one line:

Ferdinand I (1503-1564) > Johanna (1547-1578) > Marie de Medici (1575-1642) > Henrietta Maria (1609-1669) > King Charles II (1630-1685) > (follow the line I posted above)

Russia: Yes, through her royal ancestors (including James I of England and Henry IV of Frances) she descended from the Rurik dynasty who ruled in Russia during the middle ages.

Check this website for a list of Diana's ancestors for 12 generations. Click on a name for information about that person:

Lady Diana Spencer: Genealogics
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  #418  
Old 04-09-2018, 06:00 PM
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How many UK noble families (marchionesses, earls, dukes, etc.) is Diana descended from?
And I also have the book "Ancestry of the Royal Child" by Iain Moncreiffe. How much of what is written in the book is still proven uncertain?
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  #419  
Old 04-09-2018, 06:13 PM
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For the life of me, I can't remember if I've posted this or not but its a real hoot when you get the connection.

I see you're in New Jersey. This is fun to do. On Wednesday nights, there is a show on NBC called "Chicago Med". If you tune into that show and see a character called Dr. Daniel Charles, a psychiatrist, he is played by Oliver Platt who just happens to be related to Diana, Princess of Wales in several ways.

Most people forget that Diana had pretty recent American ancestry too.

https://famouskin.com/famous-kin-cha...by+burke+roche

https://famouskin.com/famous-kin-cha...iii+of+england
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  #420  
Old 04-09-2018, 06:17 PM
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Well the Spencer-Churchills are one of the grandest families in the realm.

The senior line is the Duke of Marlborough, the cadet family line is Earl Spencer.

Diana is well connected.
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