The Spencer Family, Ancestry and Althorp 1: Ending Aug. 2023

[HM Queen Catherine]

Originally Posted by LadyKatherineGrey

Hi all,

I've just signed up and this is my first posting so go easy please. I've traced Diana back to the great Princess Mary Tudor through her paternal grandmothers side, Cynthia Elanor Hamilton. I see there is quite a bit of talk about whether or not Diana is a Stuart via Charles II progeny but I am correct in that she is in fact a legitimate Tudor descendant but mostly down female lines? Does a legitimate Tudor connection top a illegitimate Stuart claim?

You are correct that Diana is a legitimate descendant of Mary Tudor, Duchess of Suffolk, and sister of Henry VIII. I do believe that a legitimate line of descent is more important than an illegitimate one, but there are several fascinating lines of ancestry for Diana.. The legitimate line is as follows - for those who may not know the ancestry:

Mary Tudor, Duchess of Suffolk (aka The French Queen) --> Eleanor Brandon, Countess of Cumberland --> Margaret Clifford, Countess of Derby --> Ferdinando Stanley, Earl of Derby (his wife was Alice Spencer, dau of Sir John Spencer of Althorp) --> Frances Stanley, Countess of Bridgewater --> John Edgerton, 2nd Earl of Bridgewater --> John Egerton, 3rd Earl of Bridgewater --> Scroop Egerton, 1st Duke of Bridgewater --> Anne Egerton, Countess of Jersey --> George Bussy Villiers, 4th Earl of Jersey --> Caroline Villiers, Duchess of Argyll --> Caroline Paget, Duchess of Richmond and Lennox --> Cecilia Gordon-Lennox, Countess of Lucan --> Rosaline Bingham, Duchess of Abercorn --> Cynthia Hamilton, Countess Spencer of Althorp --> Edward Spencer, 8th Earl Spencer of Althorp --> Diana, Princess of Wales

This ancestry is comparable to the ancestry of Prince Charles in that they are both descended from Henry VII through female lines.. Charles from Margaret Tudor and Diana from Mary.

If you believe that Henry Carey, 1st Baron Hunsdon, was the illegitimate son of Henry VIII (as I do), then Diana is also descended from the Tudors in the male line (illegitimately) as follows:

Henry VIII --> Henry Carey, Baron Hunsdon --> Robert Carey, 1st Earl of Monmouth --> The Hon. Thomas Carey --> Elizabeth Carey, Viscountess Mordaunt --> Brig. Gen. the Hon. Lewis Mordaunt --> Anna Maria Mordaunt, the Hon. Mrs. Stephen Poyntz --> Margaret Poyntz, Countess Spencer of Althorp --> George Spencer, 2nd Earl Spencer of Althorp --> Frederick Spencer, 4th Earl Spencer --> Charles Spencer, 6th Earl Spencer --> Albert Spencer, 7th Earl Spencer --> Edward Spencer, 8th Earl Spencer --> Diana, Princess of Wales

Personally, I find these lines more vastly entertaining than the Stuart connections.

[ghost_night554]

Where do I put this?
Diana memorial fund to close after 14 years | Mail Online

I'm quite sad about this tbh

[sirhon11234]

Originally Posted by ghost_night554

Where do I put this?
Diana memorial fund to close after 14 years | Mail Online

I'm quite sad about this tbh

It is sad, I always thought Harry would take over after his aunt. Well at least the memorial fund has donated more than $100 million to charities.

[Mirabel]

Originally Posted by Aliza

Not one of Diana's friends who have been interviewed believe the island is an appropriate burial place for a woman who hated being alone.

I have always felt this way!

That island was where family pets were buried; I never liked the idea of burying Diana there. To me it smacked of medieval times, when outcasts were buried at some isolated crossroads.

I believed (and still do!) that she should have been interred somewhere in London (like St. Paul's or the Abbey, which already have security, so that people could visit her tomb and perhaps leave flowers and other tributes. Where's the harm in that?

I'm convinced that a woman like Diana, who always craved love and attention, would have liked that.

[Madame Royale]

I always thought Diana had been buried there as a way of honouring her mortal body with a peace and security that had become foreign to her throughout her adult life.

And a location where only those closest to her could visit and remember her without being watched or followed.

[princessjaime]

Originally Posted by Madame Royale

I always thought Diana had been buried there as a way of honouring her mortal body with a peace and security that had become foreign to her throughout her adult life.

And a location where only those closest to her could visit and remember her without being watched or followed.

I agree 100%.

[Renata4711]

So do I, princess jaime.

Imagine Will and Harry trying to leave bunches of flowers on, say, The Mall, somewhere where everyone could see them.....

[sirhon11234]

I never really thought negatively of the Princess of Wales being buried on The Oval island. But Frogmore could've been a potential resting ground for her.

[Mirabel]

Originally Posted by Madame Royale

I always thought Diana had been buried there as a way of honouring her mortal body with a peace and security that had become foreign to her throughout her adult life.

And a location where only those closest to her could visit and remember her without being watched or followed.

Oh right...because they visit so frequently?

[Madame Royale]

Oh right...because they visit so frequently?

I have no idea how frequently or infrequently Diana's family visit her grave, and neither do you I'm sure.

In any case, that's not really the point. You'd have had her entombed as some sort of hollywood star? To become some sort of tourist attraction? With all due respect, I fail to see the dignity in that myself. Especially in this day and age.

And why should Diana, a member of the royal family at the time of her death, but not a royal herself, been burried amongst Britain's King's and Queen's when not even the Queen's father, uncle, grandfather, great grandfather and great great grandmother are burried in such a setting. And many others before them too I might add.

Any place Diana would have been burried was likely to become a shrine of sorts and that just wasn't appropriate. Westminster Abbey would have unofficially become 'Diana Abbey' and I'd not even think to have burried her in the Cathedral of her nuptials. A cruel irony if ever there was one.

She was a remarkable and complex woman, and she died much too young in the most tragic of circumstances, but unlike in life, Diana's mortal shell was accorded in death the dignity of peace and tranquility. I admire the decision to have burried her away from public curiosity and to have put an end to the circus in the best way her family thought reasonable.

[Mirabel]

Originally Posted by Madame Royale

I have no idea how frequently or infrequently Diana's family visit her grave, and neither do you I'm sure.

If it occurred frequently, we'd hear about it, I have no doubt whatsoever.

In any case, that's not really the point. You'd have had her entombed as some sort of hollywood star? To become some sort of tourist attraction? With all due respect, I fail to see the dignity in that myself. Especially in this day and age.

And why should Diana, a member of the royal family at the time of her death, but not a royal herself, been burried amongst Britain's King's and Queen's when not even the Queen's father, uncle, grandfather, great grandfather and great great grandmother are burried in such a setting. And many others before them too I might add.

The Abbey is for notable people, not just for Queens and Kings.

She was a remarkable and complex woman, and she died much too young in the most tragic of circumstances, but unlike in life, Diana's mortal shell was accorded in death the dignity of peace and tranquility. I admire the decision to have burried her away from public curiosity and to have put an end to the circus in the best way her family thought reasonable.

We'll have to agree to disagree; what you see as peaceful and dignified, I see as lonely and neglected. What's done is done, but I still think Diana herself would have preferred a different venue.

[Madame Royale]

What's done is done, but I still think Diana herself would have preferred a different venue.

Agreed, what's done is done. However I'm in no position to say I know what the thoughts of a deceased person were some 15 years ago...

Furthermore, in her will Diana would have stated where she wished to have been burried. If she did not do that, then the nature of her internment then lies with family. She wasn't a royal and wasn't married so naturally that decision then rested between her mother and siblings.

Either Diana wished to be burried at Althorp (least mentioned it ?) or her family thought it the most appropriate place. I've wondered if perhaps her family wanted her burried there, in a sense, so as to protect her in death, where perhaps they may feel as though they failed too in life. Who know's, I don't!

[Zonk]

Why would we know the frequency of visits to Diana's grave? Personally I think that was one of the reasons that they picked the island on the estate so that they can grieve privately. With that in mind, I am reminded of Caroline Kennedy who choose to bury her brother, the late John F. Kennedy Jr. at sea. She didn't want his grave to become a site for fans.

To be honest, I am very dismayed that in the time of realtiy tv and instant news on the internet, we all expect to know everything about anyone who has a public identity (whether it be long term or Andy Warhol's 15 minutes of fame). Isn't anyone entitled to privacy at all? Especially when grieving?

[Madame Royale]

I completely agree, Zonk.

[Mirabel]

Originally Posted by Zonk

Why would we know the frequency of visits to Diana's grave?

Didn't we know when William took Kate there?

William lives his life in a fishbowl; the only privacy he gets is behind palace walls. If he was a frequent visitor to the gravesite, I think we would know. JMO.

[Zonk]

We knew because a Palace source or something like that told us. But his actions were not surprising....what new groom and/or bride whose parents are no longer with the living make such a pilgrimage the day after a life changing occasion? And this information was shared with the general public because people are interested in William, Catherine (and Harry) as well as Diana It makes perfect sense to me.

Yes, William lives his life in fishbowl when he is out in public but when he is not...do we know what he (or any member of the BRF) is doing 24/? What's he doing now? Again, unless he is living a Big Brother lifestyle and he has cameras on him 24/7 and it can be viewed by the public on television...we don't know what he does? In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if William and Harry haven't made the trip to the island on Diana's birthday's and/or Mother's Day. Maybe not all of them since she died but a couple. Are we privy to ALL the goings on at Althrop? I would imagine that Harry and William get plenty of privacy on the estate. Just as William has privacy in Wales. We just don't know about it because its none of our business.

[LadyKatherineGrey]

I also find the other less obvious connections far more interesting as well, like the one between Diana and Charles stemming from the Queen Mother back to the 3rd Duke of Devonshire from memory. And the double connection of Sarah Ferguson to the mutual ancestor with Camilla. It seems Camilla's family has a long heritage of moving intimately in royal circles. Thanks again for the Hudson connection.

[PrincessKaimi]

Ah, those blood lines are fascinating. The Mary Tudor line managed to marry off quite a few daughters to titled persons.

[Sangre_Real016]

hi all, i am practically new here..

i also want to share some information regarding the ancestry of Lady Diana, Princess of Wales..

as we all know, Diana is a descendant of King James II through an illegitimate line from his relationship with Arabella Churchill, sister to the great Duke of Marlborough..

King James II of England>>> Henrietta Fitz-James, Countess of Newcastle >>> James Waldergrave, 1st Earl Waldergrave >>> James Waldergrave, 2nd Earl Waldergrave >>> Lady Anna Horatia Waldergrave >>> Sir Horace Seymour >>> Adelaide Horatia Seymour, Countess Spencer >>> Charles Spencer, 6th Earl Spencer >>> Albert Spencer, 7th Earl Spencer >>> John Spencer, 8th Earl Spencer >>> Lady Diana, Princess of Wales

Diana shares this line with the current Dukes of Alba making the current title bearer, Cayenata Fitz-James Stuart, 18th Duchess of Alba a distant relative as Diana's ancestor Henrietta Fitz-James is the sister of James Fitz-James, 1st Duke of Berwick..

also through this line, Diana is a direct descendant of William the Conqueror through a illegitimate yet unbroken line which as follows..

King William I "The Conqueror" >>> King Henry I of England >>> Mathilde, Holy Roman Empress >>> King Henry II of England >>> King John I of England >>> King Henry III of England >>> King Edward I of England >>> King Edward II of England >>> King Edward III of England >>> Lionel of Antwerp, 1st Duke of Clarence >>> Philippa Plantagenet, 5th Countess of Ulster >>> Roger de Mortimer, 4th earl of March >>> Anne de Mortimer, Countess of Cambridge >>> King Edward IV of England >>> Elizabeth of York >>> Margaret Tudor >>> King James V of Scotland >>> Mary, Queen of Scots >>> James IV and I of Scotland and England >>> King Charles I of England >>> King James II of England >>> Henrietta Fitz-James, Countess of Newcastle >>> James Waldergrave, 1st Earl Waldergrave >>> James Waldergrave, 2nd Earl Waldergrave >>> Lady Anna Horatia Waldergrave >>> Sir Horace Seymour >>> Adelaide Horatia Seymour, Countess Spencer >>> Charles Spencer, 6th Earl Spencer >>> Albert Spencer, 7th Earl Spencer >>> John Spencer, 8th Earl Spencer >>> Lady Diana, Princess of Wales

also, most people tend to connect Diana's royal bloodline through the illegitimate line which she descends, but people must also know that Diana descended through a legitimate yet morganatic line of Frederick V, Elector Palatine and King of Bohemia who was also apparently the father of Sophia of Hanover, the direct ancestor of the current British Royal Family..

here is the line..

Frederick V, Elector Palatine and King of Bohemia (married Princess Elizabeth of Scotland and England, daughter of King James IV and I of Scotland and England) >>> Charles I Louis, Elector Palatine >>> Karoline von der Pfalz, Duchess of Schomberg >>> Lady Federica Schomberg >>> Lady Caroline D'arcy >>> Lady Louisa Kerr >>> Charles Lennox, 4th Duke of Richmond >>> Charles Gordon-Lennox, 5th Duke of Richmond >>> Lady Cecilia Catherine Gordon-Lennox, Countess of Lucan >>> Rosalind Bingham, Duchess of Abercorn >>> Cynthia Hamilton, Countess Spencer >>> John Spencer, 8th Earl Spencer >>> Lady Diana, Princess of Wales

now, base on this bloodline, we can say that Diana indeed is a direct descendant from William the Conqueror in both male (illegitimate) and female (morganatic) line.. it is also a fun fact that if Prince William, Duke of Cambridge is to become king and uses his first given name as his regnal name, he would be known as King William V of the United Kingdom of Great Britain, Northern Ireland and the Commonwealth Realms.

with such line, we can conclude that Diana descended from both children of King James IV and I of Scotland and England, meaning Diana has more Stuart bloodline than Prince Charles considering that Charles only possess Stuart bloodline through the female line.. also, Charles I Louis' granddaughter, Frederica Mildmay, Countess of Mértola was the most senior descendant of King James IV and I of Scotland and England to be Protestant via cognatic primogeniture but was passed over for Sophia of Hanover as heir to the British Throne..

also, Diana is a direct descendant of the House of Hanover through an unbroken line.. yes, most people only associate Diana with the Stuarts when in fact, she is also a direct descendant of the Hanover.. Diana's great-great-great-great grand mother is the half sister of King George I of Great Britain, son of Sophia, Electress of Hanover.. here is the line..

Ernest Augustus, Elector of Brunswick-Lüneburg >>> Sophia von Platen und Hallermund, Countess of Leinster and Darlington >>> Mary Sophia von Kielmansegg, Viscountess Howe >>> Richard Howe, 1st Earl Howe >>> Sophia Charlotte Howe, Baroness Howe >>> Richard William Penn Curzon-Howe, 1st Earl Howe (Second Creation) >>> Lady Mary Anna Curzon-Howe >>> James Albert Edward Hamilton, 3rd Duke of Abercorn >>> Cynthia Hamilton, Countess Spencer >>> John Spencer, 8th Earl Spencer >>> Lady Diana, Princess of Wales

Diana is also a direct descendant of powerful Italian Noble families such as that of the House of Sforza, who ruled as the Dukes of Milan and the House of Medici who ruled as the Grand Dukes of Tuscany.. she is also a direct descendant of the legendary Caterina Sforza, Countess of Forlì through an unbroken bloodline..

Muzio Sforza >>> Francesco I Sforza, Duke of Milan >>> Galeazzo Sforza, Duke of Milan >>> Caterina Sforza, Countess of Forlì >>> Lodovico de' Medici >>> Cosimo I de' Medici, Grand Duke of Tuscany >>> Francesco I de' Medici, Grand Duke of Tuscany >>> Marie de' Medici, Queen of France >>> Henrietta Maria of France, Queen of England >>> King Charles II of England >>> Charles Lennox, 1st Duke of Richmond >>> Charles Lennox, 2nd Duke of Richmond >>> Lord George Lennox >>> Charles Lennox, 4th Duke of Richmond >>> Charles Gordon-Lennox, 5th Duke of Richmond >>> Lady Cecilia Catherine Gordon-Lennox, Countess of Lucan >>> Rosalind Bingham, Duchess of Abercorn >>> Cynthia Hamilton, Countess Spencer >>> John Spencer, 8th Earl Spencer >>> Lady Diana, Princess of Wales

Diana also descended from the House of Toledo which were the original Dukes of Alba before the title went to the House of FitzJames as the wife of Cosimo I de' Medici was the granddaughter of Fadrique Álvarez de Toledo, 2nd Duke of Alba..

García Álvarez de Toledo, 1st Duke of Alba >>> Fadrique Álvarez de Toledo, 2nd Duke of Alba >>> Pedro Álvarez de Toledo, 2nd Marquis of Villafranca >>> Eleanor of Toledo >>> Francesco I de' Medici, Grand Duke of Tuscany >>> Marie de' Medici, Queen of France >>> Henrietta Maria of France, Queen of England >>> King Charles II of England >>> Charles Lennox, 1st Duke of Richmond >>> Charles Lennox, 2nd Duke of Richmond >>> Lord George Lennox >>> Charles Lennox, 4th Duke of Richmond >>> Charles Gordon-Lennox, 5th Duke of Richmond >>> Lady Cecilia Catherine Gordon-Lennox, Countess of Lucan >>> Rosalind Bingham, Duchess of Abercorn >>> Cynthia Hamilton, Countess Spencer >>> John Spencer, 8th Earl Spencer >>> Lady Diana, Princess of Wales

we can conclude that Diana is also a distant relative of the current of Dukes of Medina Sidonia which descended from the line of the Marquises of Villafranca.. José María Álvarez de Toledo, 15th Duke of Medina Sidonia was originally the 11th Marquis of Villafranca.. one notable member was Luisa Isabel Álvarez de Toledo, 21st Duchess of Medina Sidonia who was known as "The Red Duchess"..

in short, Diana is not just a member of one of Britain's oldest and foremost aristocratic families, the Spencers who now holds the titles of Earl Spencer and Duke of Marlborough, she is also bound by blood to Europe's greatest Royal and Noble Houses such as the House of Normandy (from William the Conqueror), House of Plantagenet (from Mathilde, Holy Roman Empress), House of Tudor (from Mary Tudor), House of Stuart (from James IV and I of Scotland and England), House of House of Wittelsbach (from Frederick V, Elector Palatine and King of Bohemia), House of Bourbon (from Henrietta Maria of France), House of Hanover (from Ernest Augustus, Elector of Brunswick-Lüneburg), House of Medici (from Cosimo I de' Medici, Grand Duke of Tuscany), House of Sforza (from Francesco I Sforza, Duke of Milan) and a distant relative of the House of FitzJames (Dukes of Berwick) and House of Toledo (Dukes of Medina Sidonia)..

knowing this makes me happy that Diana returned the direct Stuart bloodline to the Royal Family.. also, once Prince William ascends the throne, he would be the first monarch in 300 years to have descended to all past kings of England..

[Sangre_Real016]

also, if i am not mistaken Diana's famous ancestor John Churchill, 1st Duke of Marlborough was also created by Joseph I, Holy Roman Emperor as a sovereign prince as the Prince of Mindelheim.. this would make his heirs princes and princesses with the style of Serene Highness which would make them of equal marriage to any member of any Royal House.. but sadly, John Churchill died without any male heir, as a the empire operate via Salic Law which prevented female succession despite the motion of the King of Prussia, through his representative the Prince of Anhalt-Dassau, that the title should descend successively to all the heirs of Marlborough’s body but then, most of the princes of the empire refused.. the title of Duke of Marlborough was later inherited by John's eldest daughter Henrietta Godolphin, 2nd Duchess of Marlborough and later by Charles Spencer, 3rd Duke of Marlborough, son of John Churchill's second eldest daughter Anne Spencer, Countess of Sunderland.. if the King of Prussia's motion was approved, then the family's imperial titles would have been passed down even through the female line.. Anne Spencer, Countess of Sunderland, who is also in her own right Princess Anne Churchill of Mindelheim, would have passed on her imperial titles to her children and Diana as Anne's great-great-great-great-great-great granddaughter would have been Princess Diana Spencer of Mindelheim.. well, that is the theory, but i may be mistaken..

also, i think that even if the Churchill-Spencer family's imperial titles were passed down through the female line, they may have also relinquished it during the anti-German sentiment during World War I much like what the Battenbergs did..