The Spencer Family, Ancestry and Althorp 1: Ending Aug. 2023

[Madame Royale]

I'm rather bemused by your rationale, G.

If I'm not mistaken the occasion is centred around Diana's family (her son) anyway, so I fail to see how any of this could be considered a snub on anyone's behalf.

And to suggest she isn't represented makes no sense. It's her son who's getting married. How much more representation can someone recieve than that? And it's not as though her family aren't invited. They are sitting but two metres away from William and Catherine.

Though your opinion, what you appear (?) to suggest is in my mind, unreasonable and unrealistic and no amount of Diana admiring can change the fact her family are not royal and so shall not sit with the royal family. They have been accorded the appropriate seating arrangements as William's maternal relations. If William wanted them seated anywhere else, then I'm sure that's what would have happened but evidently, where they are positioned is perfectly acceptable with him and I'm sure it is perfectly acceptable with them :)

Even if Diana were alive, her family would no doubt still be seated where they are on the day anyway. Would you be so eager to suggest a "snub" if that were the case I wonder? Somehow, I'm not so sure.

I think for the wedding if seating is limited their spouses, fiancee and children could sit else where.

But again, why cause a logistical issue when theres no need for one? It makes no sense to divide up a family for the sake of having his two aunts and his uncle sit with a family which is not their own.

They sit united as Spencers, which is the way it should be.

[Diarist]

Originally Posted by Zonk

Without a doubt in my mind, if Diana was alive she would be sitting with the Royal Family in the front row. Didn't the Queen insist that upon her divorce (although she lost the HRH title) she was still considered a member of the BRF?

There is no way that William would have allowed her to be treated any differently than the Mother of the Groom.

But I agree, we can talk about that for days and it doesn't change the fact that Diana is no longer here physically.

Yes Zonk, you are quite right. It was made clear as part of Diana's wedding settlement that she was still to be regarded as a member of the Royal Family and would be receiving appropriate invitations to State Occasions.

And if Diana was alive today, would she be sitting with the Royal Family and next to Charles? Easy to answer - yes she would I am sure. Read on:

So far as Royal Weddings are concerned, we do have two fairly recent precedents to go on: Both Diana and Sarah Duchess of York's parents were divorced - and both in very acrimonious circumstances - both their mothers were regarded as 'bolters' [the term used by the Upper Classes to signify women who left their husbands and families] and their divorces followed allegations of adultery when it was frowned on in a way that seems rather different from today's slightly more-relaxed approach to marital infidelity. Anyway, for the purpose of both Charles' and Diana's Wedding and Andrew and Sarah's wedding, at the relevent times both Earl Spencer and Mrs Shand Kydd sat together as did Major Fergusson and Mrs Barrantes. Their new partners [Raine Spencer, Hector Barrantes, Susan Fegusson were all invited to the weddings as well - they just sat away from their spouses during the actually 'ceremony-and-carriage-back-to BP' part...[incidentally, Sarah included her step-mother in the arrangements by asking her to help with advice for the flowers for the bridesmaids, so Susan Fergusson did not feel 'left-out']

I have to say that I looked closely at both parties at the time of the weddings to see how things were going to be dealt with [remember, 30 and 25 years ago, Divorce was not unknown in the Royal Family but it still seemed fairly novel to have the daughters of divorcees marrying into the immediate Royal Family] and both couples seemed to be pretty 'tight-lipped' but being what I will call 'civilised' for the sake of their offspring.

I will say this again; I am quite sure that there is no intention to deliberately 'snub' Earl Spencer, in that I am quite sure that Catherine and William are placing him where they feel appropriate - by which I mean that I think they are closer to their own immediate family and friends than William's late mother's brother [don't forget, William was relatively young when his mother died, and in my humble opinion went on to develop closer relationships with other friends and family members rather than his uncle].

And as for giving a speech / reading a lesson; well, I suppose until the great day, when the souvenir programme is on sale, we don't actually know, but even if Earl Spencer was quite close to William [and I don't think he is, not because he is 'shunned' but because life moves on] I would not expect him to have direct involvement with the wedding....

And consider this - at least Earl Spencer has been invited. The papers [including the quality papers] in England are full of lists of close friends of the Princess who one would have thought would have been invited but have not been - Diana's friends and confidantes Lucia Flecha De Lima, Lady Annabel Goldsmith and Rosa Monkton. Now that does sound like a snub, but then BP has been quick to point out that space is at a premium and William and Catherine have a lot of their own friends to invite....

Do you know, although it's a Royal Wedding, at the end of the day there are echoes of the same sort of issues that affect many of our own weddings...lack of space, lots of people who expect to be invited, an embarrassing relative or two.....

Alex

[georgiea]

Originally Posted by Madame Royale

I'm rather bemused by your rationale, G...

As much as you are bemused by my logic, I am bemused by your rational about Spencer's snub as being just royal protocol. I am not so sure.

Quote:Even if Diana were alive, her family would no doubt still be seated where they are on the day anyway. Would you be so eager to suggest a "snub" if that were the case I wonder? Somehow, I'm not so sure.

Madame Royale I agree with the above statement if Diana, Princess of Wales was sitting with the royals. But there would be many factors to that situation as I stated in previous post.

I was raised to honor my elders. I married 30 years ago-two weeks after Princess Diana. If my parent was died I would honor their family by sitting their siblings (my aunts or uncles).

So as you are bemused by me, I AM BEMUSED by others who don't think it is a snub.

[Madame Royale]

The issue seems to reflect a difference in culture (as I gather from your above post?).

That's not to say they are wrong, or that you are wrong. This just happens to be the way this paritcular family, this institution, works. And the society with which they associate would not be dissimilar in the way they handle things either.

We all belong to a culture, but within that culture is found sub cultures and the way the aristocracy or indeed, the royal family work, will be very different to the way you or your family approach something such as the seating plan at a wedding. The differences are of course enormous, so it would be pointless to even attempt to compare, but I hope you understand what I mean :)

To them, this seating arrangement is perfectly acceptable. To you it's not but again, that doesn't make it a 'snub', as you suggest. That just means you wouldn't observe the same approach.

[PrincessKaimi]

Dividing up families at weddings is definitely an etiquette faux pas, unless one of the members is acting in a capacity as part of the wedding.

Just reading this thread makes me realize how difficult making the seating chart must have been, for the royal couple (although thankfully there's precedent).

[georgiea]

Originally Posted by Madame Royale

The issue seems to reflect a difference in culture (as I gather from your above post?)...

You make sense. I have never been around royalty or aristocrat peoples.
I am now seeing the fishbowl life of royal protocol.

I hope to see from William and Catherine on their wedding some of these points taken from etiquette book on how to honor a dead parent.
(Prince William has done the first one when he gave Catherine his mother's engagement ring.)

1. Wear a piece of jewelry or article of clothing.
2. Carry the same flowers that your mother had in her bouquet.
3. At the end of the wedding program, it is appropriate to add a memoriam line. For example, you might write “Today we honor those who could not be with us, especially .......

Her sister, Sarah is going to were Diana, Princess of Wales (loaded from her mother) wedding earring to Prince William's wedding.

It must be cultural thing because MSMBC from America said this:

St. James's Palace also released the seating plan at Westminster Abbey, which showed that relatives of William's mother Princess Diana are sitting across the aisle from the royal family, joining the Middletons in an exception to the traditional division of a church into a bride's side and groom's side.

There was no explanation of the seating arrangement, but the Spencers have not had a good relationship with the royal family, especially after Diana's brother Charles Spencer attacked the royals during a speech at her 1997 funeral.


And the BBC said this:

Spencer family
Next to the Middletons will be members of the Spencer family including Lady Sarah McCorquodale, the sister of William's mother, Diana, Princess of Wales.

Lady Anne Wake-Walker, Diana's aunt; Lord Fellowes and Lady Jane Fellowes, Diana's brother-in-law and sister; and Earl Spencer will be seated alongside her.

Foreign dignitaries and diplomats will sit in the South Transept which is directly to the side.

Very much a cultural thing. BTW does anyone know where to get a royal etiquette book?

[Nice Nofret]

.. the weddings I attended in Germany and Switzerland, there was never a Brides-side and a grooms-side in Church

and also my own wedding - I didn't felt a need to *include* my much loved late father in the ceremony in any other way than thinking and probably telling to my husband, that he would have enjoyed being with us, on that special day.

[Zonk]

Frankly, while I understand that many will be thinking of Diana on Friday and wishing that she was alive to see her son marry. I will be doing the same.

I, for one do not need William to prove or show anything that indicates that he misses his mother. I say this in the most respectful way, but who are we ask for affirmation on how much he loves and misses his mother? And will we know it when we see/hear it? Maybe he will have a song played that he knew Diana loved (and those who knew Diana). And as Nico suggested, he whispers to Kate (who might already know it)....my mother loved that song?

While such a gesture will be nice, its important to remember that its William and Catherine's wedding day. Diana wouldn't want the day to be about her.

[georgiea]

No, Diana, Princess of Wales would probably be the way Queen Elizabeth II was when Prince Charles married, ecstatic. Old video clips showed the Queen very animated before the ceremony.

I will think of Diana, but be happy for the couple. You have to move on.

Being a Diana fan I always felt she got a raw deal from the royals and needed protection and love. That is way I felt she got snub in death with the Spencers on the bride's side. I made peace with the seating arrangement as something cultural and not American etiquette. I have read a few etiquette books.

I am going to Amazon to see if there is a book a royal etiquette.

[PrincessKaimi]

At a Catholic wedding (with a full mass, similar in length to the anticipated CoE ceremony on Friday), my late uncle was honored at the end of the service by a special prayer regarding people in heaven, their presence with God and with us, and God's presence with us. I felt as if a spiritual window opened up and my dear uncle could look down and see his daughter at this very happy moment. It was quite moving. The churches I'd been raised him had never done anything like that.

Since none of us knows to what degree the Windsors, Middletons and Spencers were consulted about these plans, it's impossible to say whether there's been a snub. Had Diana remarried (let's say, to Dodi), I have a hard time visualizing Dodi sitting with the Royal Family - these are problems all blended families face. But, it could have been done and they could have laid the footwork for it from the beginning of Diana's own wedding (hypothetically, to Dodi).

Then, where would the rest of the Spencers have sat? If Diana had sat on the groom's side, with the Royal Family, might'nt the Spencers have been on the same side? Gah. I'm so glad I'm not a wedding planner - but if I were, I'd just hope that everyone can see that there's only so many ways to work it out, and that the Spencers are quite happy with their seating arrangements, instead of feeling snubbed.

I am a divorced mom, and I am always happy with whatever the daughters tell me works best for them. It's not always easy for me - but I truly want them to be happy, I don't care where I sit.

[MRSJ]

Originally Posted by georgiea

No, Diana, Princess of Wales would probably be the way Queen Elizabeth II was when Prince Charles married, ecstatic...

I understand your thoughts but don't you think William loves, honors and miss his mother everyday? Don't you think if he really thought it was a snub to his mother or her memory he NEVER would have been ok with that seating? I think of everyone involved William and Harry do the most to protect the memory of their mother and honor her

[georgiea]

Originally Posted by MRSJ

I understand your thoughts but don't you think William loves, honors and miss his mother everyday? Don't you think if he really thought it was a snub to his mother or her memory he NEVER would have been ok with that seating? I think of everyone involved William and Harry do the most to protect the memory of their mother and honor her

MRSJ yes they honor her memory, but they have to honor their father too. From what I have read, Prince Charles does not like Earl Spencer. For all the problems the Earl has the day of Princess Diana's funeral he was protective of Diana as a father figure would be. At the time of burial at Althrop the Earl was very rude to Prince Charles. Charles just wanted to get away.

BTW(My family would do the same for me if necessary.) That is what family does.

So we might never know about the seating arrangement of the Spencers.

Originally Posted by PrincessKaimi

Then, where would the rest of the Spencers have sat? If Diana had sat on the groom's side, with the Royal Family, might'nt the Spencers have been on the same side? Gah. I'm so glad I'm not a wedding planner - but if I were, I'd just hope that everyone can see that there's only so many ways to work it out, and that the Spencers are quite happy with their seating arrangements, instead of feeling snubbed.

I am a divorced mom, and I am always happy with whatever the daughters tell me works best for them. It's not always easy for me - but I truly want them to be happy, I don't care where I sit.

PricessKaimi you are trying to be practical. Go for you. I feel if Diana, Princess of Wales was alive today she would be sitting with Prince Charles and the Duchess of Cornwall and the rest of the Spencers where their going to sit. I just think that Earl Spencer and his sisters should be on the groom's side like Prince William's other aunts and uncles.

My question is how is from the above bolded words. How do you know the Spencers are quite happy with their seating arrangements and not feel snubbed? Princess Diana supposedly said to Prince Philip that the Spencers
family has more royal blood then the Windsors.

[Osipi]

I think that both William and Kate took everything very much into consideration planning this wedding. As much as they wanted it to be memorable for themselves, I'm sure they also wanted each and everyone close to them to feel a very important part of their day too and would very much have noticed and "nixed" any snub that could possibly be imagined. It was blatantly obvious from the moment of engagement that both William and Kate wanted the memory of Diana to be a big part of their lives and their day, yet people get annoyed as if any mention of her is going to distract from Kate's day. I think they're taking special care to make sure everyone important to them is going to be not only attending the wedding, but feel they have a special role to play in it also. Camilla's family is being involved just as much as the Spencer family is and to me that sounds wonderful. Camilla's granddaughter is in the bridal party and its my understanding that Charles Spencer's son Louis is to be a usher.

Kaimi, I loved your recollection of the wedding remembrance of your uncle as it is beautiful. When my son married last summer, as the bride's father was deceased, her mother walked her up the aisle but before reaching the officiant (it was outdoors and a non-denominational ceremony), they both paused and lit a remembrance candle in his memory. As the ceremony started, it started to rain and all of us quickly had to crowd around the bride and groom under a gazebo as to not get drenched. Funny though, by the time of the recessional, it was sunny again. My DIL swears it was her father there making sure we were all close. Of course, on a humorous note... when asked if he does take this woman etc... my Brian says "hold on".. gets his "posse" in a huddle and debates the issue. It was uniquely them and it made the wedding not only special for them but for all of us attending. I am also a divorced mother and not on overly friendly terms with my ex. The seating was arranged that I sat with my spouse with the mother of the bride and her spouse and my ex on the other side of of the circle with his spouse and his family. It worked well for all of us that way.

This is essentially what I think William and Kate are doing. They are doing things to remember everyone that is near and dear to them. If they didn't incorporate the memory of Diana into their day, I'd think it would be awfully strange and very much out of character for the both of them. They would also be very hurt I think with any suggestion that any family member in any way or form has been snubbed. They've put a lot of time and thought and planning into this day and for one, I think it is going to be not only historic but memorable from however you want to look at it.

[Mermaid1962]

I remember her saying that her title--as a daughter of Earl Spencer--was older than Philip's, who was made Duke of Edinburgh on his wedding day. I can't see how the Windsors could possibly have less Royal blood than the Windsors, given that non-royals didn't marry into the Royal Family until George V gave the o.k. for his children to marry British aristocrats. Whereas the Spencer's Royal connections go back to mistresses of the Stuarts.

I think that Diana will be very well represented at this wedding. For one thing, there'll be William and Harry, who remind us of her with almost every facial expression. Plus there's Kate's sapphire engagement ring, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if she gives another nod to Diana incorporated in her dress, other jewelery, or her bouquet. She's honoured Diana already by mentioning her in the engagement interview. I think that if Earl Spencer felt at all "snubbed", he'd have let us know by now. He's not afraid of speaking his mind, particularly where his late sister is involved.

Originally Posted by georgiea

Princess Diana supposedly said to Prince Philip that the Spencers
family has more royal blood then the Windsors.

[PrincessKaimi]

Originally Posted by georgiea

...How do you know the Spencers are quite happy with their seating arrangements and not feel snubbed?

I said I hoped that the Spencers will be happy and not feel snubbed. Not that I knew that they were. That's my wish for them.

Osipi, thank you for that wonderful story. I love the huddle (I can see my daughter's husband attempting something like that - except that they wanted to save money and so they eloped; they are the most frugal, saving-for-a-house couple I've ever seen).

And with that, it seems we are officially very off topic, so I'll stop.

[Osipi]

Originally Posted by PrincessKaimi

Osipi, thank you for that wonderful story. I love the huddle (I can see my daughter's husband attempting something like that - except that they wanted to save money and so they eloped; they are the most frugal, saving-for-a-house couple I've ever seen).

And with that, it seems we are officially very off topic, so I'll stop.

Actually I think the both of us with stories were illuminating how a couple can and do things that mean something to them. Its the same with Will and Kate although their wedding is on a much grander scale and every little detail will be noticed. I'm sure that they thought as much about the Spencers as they did about Camilla's granddaughter and just about anyone that is invited to this wedding. I just don't think its in their intention to actually "snub" anyone or make any one of their guests feel less important than another. It just doesn't seem like Will and Kate's style at all IMO.

[PrincessKaimi]

I agree, Osipi, that no snub could possibly be intended. The two of them seem to have gone out of their way to be pleasant to everyone. However, some people like to nitpick. I think snubbing is usually in the eye of beholder, anyway.

[georgiea]

Originally Posted by Osipi

Actually I think the both of us with stories were illuminating how a couple can and do things that mean something to them. Its the same with Will and Kate although their wedding is on a much grander scale and every little detail will be noticed. I'm sure that they thought as much about the Spencers as they did about Camilla's granddaughter and just about anyone that is invited to this wedding. I just don't think its in their intention to actually "snub" anyone or make any one of their guests feel less important than another. It just doesn't seem like Will and Kate's style at all IMO.

It is nice to have beautiful wedding stories. I am very happy for you both

It isn't Prince William's style to snub. Prince William is a Windsor first and what the Windsor's want happens at a this royal wedding happens. I think Prince William seating arrangement was influence by his love for Charles and his grandparents who are alive.

Originally Posted by Mermaid1962

I remember her saying that her title--as a daughter of Earl Spencer--was older than Philip's, who was made Duke of Edinburgh on his wedding day. I can't see how the Windsors could possibly have less Royal blood than the Windsors, given that non-royals didn't marry into the Royal Family until George V gave the o.k. for his children to marry British aristocrats. Whereas the Spencer's Royal connections go back to mistresses of the Stuarts.

I guess Mermaid your memory is better than mine. You are right. The Princess told Prince Philip this when he threaten to take her HRH away I believe.

[Mermaid1962]

I agree with the commentator. Earl Spencer's speech was an arrogant one indeed. When I heard the speech, I understood that the "your" in "your blood family" referred to Diana. He seemed to be speaking directly to Diana at that point, as though she could hear him.

Who was the last member of the BRF born in Germany? The Prince Consort?

I look at it this way: I'm descended from people from Western Scotland. My ancestors were Gaelic-speaking Celts. However, I'm Canadian in every possible way. I speak with a Canadian accent. My education is Canadian. I have Canadian "values"; i.e. I believe in democracy, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, public funding for health care and education, etc. Yet, my DNA is almost entirely that of a Scot. To me, it's the same with the BRF. They have an ethnic background from all over Europe, but they're British in culture. And in the last century, there's been a lot of British "blood" brought in through marriage.

Originally Posted by EmpressRouge

The commentator pointed out that the tone of the Earl's speech seemed to suggests that the Windsor were German intruders on the British throne (even though the Queen Mum was very British). His use of the term "your [William and Harry's] blood family" was a like big jab at the Windsors: "Not only did Diana have the British people's hearts but we Spencers have British ancestry that you Windsors lack."

[IloveCP]

I don't get how people say the Spencers are more aristocratic than the Windsors.How is that?Don't the Windsors relate to all the Kings and Queens of England?