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  #1101  
Old 06-04-2017, 02:33 AM
Majesty
 
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I can deal with varying POV as much as anyone. It's injustice and unfairness I can't stand. As for disliking Diana any time anything about her comes up there is criticism from you, Lady Nimue. If any question of Charles's behaviours comes into play you defend him. I think I'm fair in stating that someone who has never praised Diana for anything dislikes her. And I disagree. I think that you do demean her.


I presume that question is for me, Iluvbertie?

I followed Diana since her engagement to Charles in 1980. I went to be with the crowds at the funeral because I admired her. It wouldn't have mattered if she had died of a heart attack or a sudden illness at the hotel in Paris that night. I would have been in London because I very much admired Diana's achievements in many areas and wanted to be there to pay tribute.


No Diana fans that I know of are fascinated by car crashes, dramatic or otherwise. I also don't happen to be driven in my respect for people by magazine drivel.

I haven't bought magazines for thirty years, and have never bought the Daily Mail.
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  #1102  
Old 06-04-2017, 03:20 AM
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Exactly Curryong I try to ignore Diana threads because they are so biased and nasty. But then I can be following another thread and low and behold Diana is bought into and the nasty posts. What I find amusing is these are the same people who say nobody cares about her anymore.
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  #1103  
Old 06-04-2017, 03:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
I can deal with varying POV as much as anyone. It's injustice and unfairness I can't stand.
Rather than making assertions it would be helpful (and I mean this genuinely ) if you pointed out what exactly was unjust or unfair? It would enlighten rather than obscure, as assertions tend to do.

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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
As for disliking Diana any time anything about her comes up there is criticism from you, Lady Nimue.
Anytime? That covers a lot of time. But I would ask that rather than the assertion you provide an example. However, I do tend to push-back on a certain narrative regarding Diana. So if that particular narrative is your favorite, then of course I appear to be countering it. That's fair.

Bottom line, I require people to take responsibility for their lives. The fandom of Diana is disquieting because a particular kind of self-absorption Diana engaged in seems to be elevated to a kind of 'pedestal victimhood'. Yes, I will resist that. (It is something I will actively work to not have occur with my own daughters, who are quite young right now, but responsibility never starts too young imo).

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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
If any question of Charles's behaviours comes into play you defend him.
If that in fact occurs (though I am not sure it does) is that such a bad thing? If you can 'defend' Diana, what would be the problem with someone 'defending' Charles? Something about this doesn't make sense to me. How can this be a negative? You have to admit there is a great deal of Charles-bashing that goes forward under the guise of 'defending' Diana. All Diana's problems seem to be lain at the feet of Charles. How is that possible, even probable? Think about it.

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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
I think I'm fair in stating that someone who has never praised Diana for anything dislikes her.
I can't dislike her. I never knew her. That's a fact.

I'm not a fan, that is true. That should not translate into I dislike her. I'm not a fan of Madonna, doesn't mean I dislike Madonna, though Madonna I have met casually, and casually, she is a very nice person, and from that I trust she is actually a very nice person. However, still not a fan (I could see her laughing at that). There's a difference between liking (or disliking) someone because you know them and being a fan. I am not a fan of Diana.

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And I disagree. I think that you do demean her.
I do not think wanting to see the historical facts presented is 'demeaning'. But I am aware this is your opinion, to which you are entitled. I am just sorry that Diana fans (of a particular kind I am meeting here) do not seem able to see Diana clearly, and because someone else may, that person becomes a problem.

I would ask that you stay in the conversation, because I am very interested in the back-up to the way you see Diana. After a great deal of reading I find it hard to see Diana as anyone I might be a fan of, but that's just me. I am interested in other points of view, and hearing responses to my point of view, though I'd ask for facts and not assertions. That would be helpful. Else the discussion goes nowhere and becomes circular.
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  #1104  
Old 06-04-2017, 05:16 AM
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Let's get back on topic please, we are supposed to be discussing the last hours, death, transfer, funeral and internment of Diana, not books written about her or debating and analysing what lies behind individual member's opinions, post content etc. If people wish to hold a private conversation they may do so by PM. Thanks you.
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  #1105  
Old 06-04-2017, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by royal rob View Post
This tread is about her last hours death etc why can't we stop going off topic
Sorry I am guilty.. I can remember the ngiht her body came to KP.. I went with someone from work to see the flowers. And my dear husband who had not been her biggest fan, cried when we saw her hearse go by on the way to Althorp...
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  #1106  
Old 06-04-2017, 05:35 PM
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The mounds of flowers were unbelievable, even though they did begin to stink after a while, a quite sickly smell, I remember. I also remember little teddies and other soft toys among them and wondering at the time whether they would be thrown away. I suppose they were. My cousin was among those who threw rose petals at the car carrying her coffin. She had tears in her eyes but a woman next to her was crying so hard her husband had to pull her away...
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  #1107  
Old 06-04-2017, 06:28 PM
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I think Diana's death affected people who didn't necessarily care about the Royal Family or Diana at all. She was young, very attractive and left behind two young sons... and she died in a stupid car accident. It was a tremendous shock and I think many people felt "there but for the grace of God"....
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  #1108  
Old 06-05-2017, 04:41 AM
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It was certainly a tremendous shock. But people also wept on the streets at George VI's funeral, and part of that was that he had died prematurely (of the complications from cancer) in his fifties. He and the queen mother were much admired for their stance during the war. So much of it is part Royal mystique, mixed with veneration and respect for the dead person. Diana was a very admired and loved Princess of Wales and all sorts of feelings were probably involved.
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  #1109  
Old 06-05-2017, 02:19 PM
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I expect we'll see a lot of grief when this Queen passes, too. The only people who would remember George VI's time would be about 70 and older now. It will be a different kind of mourning than there was for Diana, but it still will be intense. I think that I shall be very sad indeed.

Diana was a young, charismatic, beautiful mother of two vulnerable boys when she was taken. People loved her and followed her life for many different reasons. She was an icon of our times, her face peering at us from books and magazines and our t.v. screens. We felt that we knew her personally and that we were saying good-bye to a friend--a puzzling friend in some ways, but a friend.
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  #1110  
Old 06-05-2017, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
The mounds of flowers were unbelievable, even though they did begin to stink after a while, a quite sickly smell, I remember. I also remember little teddies and other soft toys among them and wondering at the time whether they would be thrown away. I suppose they were. My cousin was among those who threw rose petals at the car carrying her coffin. She had tears in her eyes but a woman next to her was crying so hard her husband had to pull her away...
the flwwoers were used as compost to grow more flowers and the toys were given to hosptials.
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  #1111  
Old 06-05-2017, 03:54 PM
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Regardless of what the impact of Diana's sudden death was on people, the fact remains that it was an event that permanently stamped itself on the psych of the world at that time.

Whether one is a devoted Diana fan or someone that sees her as a very troubled person, one thing remains very clear here too. Regardless of how we perceive Diana and her life and times, she made such an impact on all of us to the point where we took the time and the effort to know more about her. That continues to this day and all the discussions and threads about Diana prove that.
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  #1112  
Old 06-05-2017, 05:17 PM
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Yes. One doesn't have to be a "fan" to realize that Diana was a phenomenon who will be discussed for awhile yet by her contemporaries and then by historians looking back at her.
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  #1113  
Old 06-05-2017, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Regardless of what the impact of Diana's sudden death was on people, the fact remains that it was an event that permanently stamped itself on the psych of the world at that time.

Whether one is a devoted Diana fan or someone that sees her as a very troubled person, one thing remains very clear here too. Regardless of how we perceive Diana and her life and times, she made such an impact on all of us to the point where we took the time and the effort to know more about her. That continues to this day and all the discussions and threads about Diana prove that.
Some devoted fans also see her as a very troubled person. Me, for example. Just because someone is famous/wonderful/engaging/energizing/beautiful/famous/accomplished/successful, it does not mean that they cannot also be seriously troubled.
A bit off topic, but something like 20% of "successful" CEOs and similar leaders also display a psychopathic personality. I've known many highly functioning addicts in my life. In fact, we all struggle, we all succeed, we all stumble and we all persevere. Sometimes we simply cope, sometimes we implode and sometimes we shine. It's the nature of humanity. And also, I think that's the premise behind the work that Wills, Kate and Harry are doing with Mental Illness issues. JMO.
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  #1114  
Old 06-05-2017, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
the flwwoers were used as compost to grow more flowers and the toys were given to hosptials.
Thanks Denville, I'd forgotten, though I have to say that some of the little toys I saw in the mounds were getting a bit worse for wear by the end!
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  #1115  
Old 06-05-2017, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by AdmirerUS View Post
Some devoted fans also see her as a very troubled person. Me, for example. Just because someone is famous/wonderful/engaging/energizing/beautiful/famous/accomplished/successful, it does not mean that they cannot also be seriously troubled.
A bit off topic, but something like 20% of "successful" CEOs and similar leaders also display a psychopathic personality. I've known many highly functioning addicts in my life. In fact, we all struggle, we all succeed, we all stumble and we all persevere. Sometimes we simply cope, sometimes we implode and sometimes we shine. It's the nature of humanity. And also, I think that's the premise behind the work that Wills, Kate and Harry are doing with Mental Illness issues. JMO.
Perhaps. Charles could be equated in the same vein. Diana was troubled. Perhaps, because of a disturbing living situation.
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  #1116  
Old 06-05-2017, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
I expect we'll see a lot of grief when this Queen passes, too. The only people who would remember George VI's time would be about 70 and older now. It will be a different kind of mourning than there was for Diana, but it still will be intense. I think that I shall be very sad indeed.
I think there will be a huge amount of grief when this Queen dies and people will know that it's an end of an era. She's iconic. For many people all over the world "The Queen" is synonymous with QEII. I agree the days and weeks after her death will be very intense and I'll be sad to see her go, too. That being said, her death won't be a shock, and it won't be tragic, which is what distinguishes Diana's passing, IMO.

I had no strong feelings either way about Diana when she was alive but she was a uniquely larger than life phenomenon for all of my childhood and adolescence and I remember being stunned when she died.
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  #1117  
Old 06-06-2017, 03:07 PM
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I'm not sure. I think the queen is deservedly quite popular but if she makes it to nearly 100, it will be sad to lose her, but one can't ask for much more than 90 or100 years. Diana's death was tragically young and she was killed in a horrible crash.. it was unexpected and avoidable. so it is very very sad and tragic.

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Perhaps. Charles could be equated in the same vein. Diana was troubled. Perhaps, because of a disturbing living situation.
I don't think so. Diana had real psychological problems, I think they were "set free" by her marriage, because of the massive strain of becoming Royal, being adored by the public but not by her husband, etc. Perhaps if she had had a quiet life, lived in Kensington for another few years, and found a husband who would offer her a comfortable private safe life, she would have been prone to the odd bout of depression, but not more than that. Charles has his gloomy side, but I don't know of him cutting himself, having eating issues or any of Di's issues.
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  #1118  
Old 06-06-2017, 05:35 PM
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Everybody on the planet has psychological issues to some extent. Its all part and parcel of our makeup. From little phobias to neuroses to character defects. Most of us recognize and deal with them and some of them even make us quirky and unique. Its part of being human and Diana was no exception.

A lot of things about Diana would have remained the same no matter where she had gone in life. Situations amplify problems but most times they were there to begin with. As none of us really knew Diana intimately, we can only go by what other people have related that she was like.

Diana's death was a shocking tragedy that hit people between the eyes as they woke up to their morning news. When the Queen passes, I think there will be extreme sadness and the realization that an era has passed but it'll be a more sedate, quiet mourning and a great outpouring of tribute to a woman that has defined the word "Queen" over an extensive lifetime.
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  #1119  
Old 06-07-2017, 02:10 AM
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wel that's my point. I think she had some problems that really needed help from medical or therapeutic personnel, not just the sort of depression that we all get at times or the quirks that we can live with. but I think if she had not had the high stress life, she might not have developed all the things that she had like bulimia, very bad for a time or self harming.
There doesn't seem to be evidence of her having the bulimia prior to her marriage. or the cutting herself. so I think if she's married someone ordinary maybe she might have had bad bout of post natal depression, an needed therapy for it or someitng like thtat, but I am not sure the more extreme forms of problems would have developed.
She was vulnerable, and I think that that's what made people care for her and be touched that in spite of her own problems She DID still try to reach out ot others and show them kindness and affection. I honestly don't see that sort of warmth in the queen, though she's a fine woman, but I don't think her death will bring about such public sadness.
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  #1120  
Old 06-21-2017, 11:07 PM
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In light of a little debate that was going on earlier on the Harry general news thread about Harry's feelings regarding walking behind the cortège (he's said in a very recent interview that he doesn't feel that any child should have been made to do that) I went back to Penny Junor's biography of Harry 'Prince Harry, Brother, Soldier, Son' to see what she wrote about the arrangements for the boys to walk. (I chose Junor as it is said that she has close contacts among Prince Charles's circle, though I have three other biographies of Harry.)

She writes in the relevant chapter 'The Long Walk', that Charles Spencer initially wanted to walk behind the cortège on his own. Prince Charles wished to join him and he felt, according to Junor, that his children 'should be able to walk if they so chose; he felt it might help the grieving process.'

In the meantime Downing St was suggesting a 'People's Funeral' with the public following the cortège. According to Junor Prince Charles and Earl Spencer 'got into a bitter war of words about it' but the matter was pretty well settled when Prince Philip said that he would walk. (There are other sources I've read, not Junor's, that William didn't want to do it, and Prince Philip said the choice was his but he might regret it later if he didn't, and would he do so if he, Philip, joined him?)

Alistair Campbell, Tony Blair's Press Secretary, claimed in his published diaries, 'The Blair Years' that Sandy Henney (Prince Charles's Press Secretary 1993-2000) had been asked by Charles to persuade his sons to walk with him as he was anxious about being attacked by the public.

Sandy Henney utterly repudiated that, according to Junor. She did state that there was indeed concern at BP/St James's about possible public displeasure being shown to the POW. However, Henney said it was William and Harry's decision to walk...'the boys talked about walking with the cortège to close members of their family and only those they trusted' (Sandy herself was up at Balmoral following Diana's death and recalled Harry helping her sort and read the mound of condolence letters received there from the public) 'and no-one they talked to at that time would ever speak to a third party about what the children said'.

Stuart Higgins, the editor of The Sun tabloid in the 1990s, refused to believe it was solely the boys' choice. Sandy Henny is quoted by Junor as having argued vehemently with him about it. She stated

'Right up to the last minute when the boys decided to walk behind the coffin there was a plan that if they couldn't do it -entirely their choice- I would go, take them from the Prince's apartment at St James across to Clarence House and they would go to the funeral with their great-grandmother. It was their choice and it angered me that everyone was saying what the boys should and shouldn't do in relation to their mother's funeral.'

In light of the above, (and Sandy Henney is a discreet woman who knew what was going on in that terrible week,) what are we to make of Harry's recent interview in which he more or less states that he (and presumably his brother as well) was 'made' to walk behind the coffin? Who put pressure, subtle or otherwise, on them and why? Was it the pressure of public and media expectation, the expectations of the BRF at a moment of trauma in national life? Or what?

We may learn more from the two forthcoming documentaries in July/August in which the brothers are to speak about their mother's death and funeral, and I hope some answers are there.
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