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  #1081  
Old 05-31-2017, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
I think that when it came to things such as the landmine campaign, she was able to step outside of herself and really focus on the job at hand. It was the same with her work with sufferers of various diseases such as cancer, AIDS, leprosy, etc. It was more in her speeches about bulimia and depression that she seemed to inject too much of herself into her speeches. I didn't like her tone in those speeches, such as when she joked about "postponing" her "nervous breakdown to a more appropriate moment" That was simply self-centered. There was no need for her to reference the rumors about herself during the speech.

I respect the amount of charity work that Diana did. I think that it was important. That doesn't mean that I think she sometimes used her speeches to signal about how hard-done-by she was.
She was making fun of herself in the speech and referred to the headlines about her. Members of the royal family and other public figures do this all the time.

When she talked about depression and Bulimia, she was right to talk about her issues to help raise awareness for the illness. She highlited the issue during the time when it wasn't talked about. A lot of people really didn't know about bulimia symptoms in the 90's. Now, her two sons and daughter-in-law are talking about their own issues for the Heads Together Campaign.

Diana wasn't self centered, but she had many issues like many other people and she used her high position to help shine a light on other people's issues and the problems she shared with them. The things Diana was doing was a little ahead of her time, because people didn't think the royals should be speaking out about their personal stuff. Now her family is getting tons of praise for doing the same thing. The "men in grey coats", royal establishment and the media wasn't having it in her day.
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  #1082  
Old 06-01-2017, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
When she talked about depression and Bulimia, she was right to talk about her issues to help raise awareness for the illness. She highlited the issue during the time when it wasn't talked about. A lot of people really didn't know about bulimia symptoms in the 90's.
I think you're ascribing more than was actually there. Diana had a very hard time accepting that she had a problem. She wasn't raising awareness with her comments. She was 'pushing back' on the rumors.

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Now, her two sons and daughter-in-law are talking about their own issues for the Heads Together Campaign.
Not quite the same thing. A discussion about grief and generic mentions of 'talking to someone' in a therapy session is not divulging one's personal issues.

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Diana wasn't self centered


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The things Diana was doing was a little ahead of her time, because people didn't think the royals should be speaking out about their personal stuff.
She wasn't really speaking out about her 'personal stuff'. She was in accusatory mode. She was blaming others for her actions that she 'knew' others found 'off'. The public did not actually know how much members of the BRF were trying to get help to Diana. Instead of taking the help and really working in therapy, she made speeches with 'jokes' about her nervous breakdown. That's not being 'ahead of her time'. What she was doing was wince-able. Anyone doing now what she did back then would be recognized as in deep distress and not lauded. IMO No laughing matter.

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Now her family is getting tons of praise for doing the same thing. The "men in grey coats", royal establishment and the media wasn't having it in her day.
You have scrambled the sequence. Diana was not arguing for therapy, she was running from it. Her sons and daughter-in-law are advocating for counseling.
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  #1083  
Old 06-02-2017, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Nimue View Post
When did the public 'know' (for certain, I know it was long speculated) that Diana was behind the Morton book? Because that was certainly Diana telling how she felt about things. I view that book as her first 'interview' that began the whole unravelling.
I believe that was pretty soon known, with her visiting Caroline Bartholomew, details in the book nobody else could have known and the Patrick DeMarchelier pictures that were published in the book.
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  #1084  
Old 06-02-2017, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Nimue View Post
I think you're ascribing more than was actually there. Diana had a very hard time accepting that she had a problem. She wasn't raising awareness with her comments. She was 'pushing back' on the rumors.



Not quite the same thing. A discussion about grief and generic mentions of 'talking to someone' in a therapy session is not divulging one's personal issues.







She wasn't really speaking out about her 'personal stuff'. She was in accusatory mode. She was blaming others for her actions that she 'knew' others found 'off'. The public did not actually know how much members of the BRF were trying to get help to Diana. Instead of taking the help and really working in therapy, she made speeches with 'jokes' about her nervous breakdown. That's not being 'ahead of her time'. What she was doing was wince-able. Anyone doing now what she did back then would be recognized as in deep distress and not lauded. IMO No laughing matter.



You have scrambled the sequence. Diana was not arguing for therapy, she was running from it. Her sons and daughter-in-law are advocating for counseling.
She made a joke in her speech, Lady Nimue, it's not that serious as you're trying to make it. The headlines were crazy and she made a slight joke about it. The audience like it and laughed. You have to try to have a laugh at yourself sometimes. It helps you get through the hard times.

Yes, The Queen reached out and Prince Philip reached out. She appreciated their help and there's letters to prove it. Although, the help she and even Charles needed wasn't something they could professionally handle. Too much focus was on them performing before the world, and not on them getting the help they needed to sort out their family and personal issues. The marriage may have been beyond repair, but at least the counseling would've helped them resolve things in a more appropriate manner.

The Cambridge's and Prince Harry are doing a beautiful job on the Heads Together campaign and sharing their personal stories, but they are being allowed to do this in the right time.

In Diana's day, this sort of thing would've been discouraged by the royal family, palace officials and even government. The work Diana was getting into- cancer, aids and other causes were considered too risky. Even The Queen preferred for Diana to champion soft causes; like helping with animals and such.

Diana had personal issues, but due to her own suffering, she wanted to get involved with causes that dealt with others people's suffering. In a way, she could relate to them and they related to her. She touched many people lives because she truly cared about them and wanted to use her high royal position to champion worthy causes that helped people.

Diana wasn't perfect and Lord knows she made some bad mistakes with the game playing with the media. Her heart was in the right place, but her personal life was in a bad condition, and resources and the family support just wasn't there at the time.

I totally understand William and Harry's wish they could've been of some more help to her. In a way they were though. They gave their mother lots of love and personal joy and she showered them with tons of love and joy too. No matter what was going on in her short life, her kids was very important to her. I happen to think if she was able to start a new life for herself and her kids, she would've done so.
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  #1085  
Old 06-02-2017, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by royal_sophietje View Post
I believe that was pretty soon known, with her visiting Caroline Bartholomew, details in the book nobody else could have known and the Patrick DeMarchelier pictures that were published in the book.
no it wasn't. It wasn't known till after her death when Mortotn released the tapes and revealed that she was the source.
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  #1086  
Old 06-02-2017, 02:40 PM
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I'm with Denville on this one. There were a lot of people that scratched their heads and thought that Diana was part and parcel as an accomplice in the Morton book but it wasn't until after her death that it became a widely known fact that she was so involved with the book.
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  #1087  
Old 06-02-2017, 03:50 PM
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I'm with Denville on this one. There were a lot of people that scratched their heads and thought that Diana was part and parcel as an accomplice in the Morton book but it wasn't until after her death that it became a widely known fact that she was so involved with the book.
Yes, it happened during the very dark moments and low points of her marriage.
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  #1088  
Old 06-02-2017, 04:52 PM
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it was pretty obvious that she must have sanctioned her friends talking, but there was no proof, And Diana lied to a few people who had asked, like Clive James, saying that she had had nothing to do with it, had never met Morton..but that when her friends had been criticised for talking, she had to show sympatty for them out of loyalty.
It was terrible of Morton to release her involvement soon after her death.. at a later stage perhaps but she had been in a low and depressed state, had acted foolishly and he could have sold his damn book iwthtout letting her folly and desperation be known...
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  #1089  
Old 06-03-2017, 01:12 PM
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Definitely. According to this article, he met Michael O'Mara, the publisher, the day after Diana's funeral!

Interview: Andrew Morton: He couldn't shout: `Diana was in on this.' `She trusted me. It would have been a betrayal' | The Independent


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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
It was terrible of Morton to release her involvement soon after her death.. at a later stage perhaps but she had been in a low and depressed state, had acted foolishly and he could have sold his damn book iwthtout letting her folly and desperation be known...
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  #1090  
Old 06-03-2017, 04:11 PM
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Repulisve man. but she was so stupid to trust him. If she had even left it as her friends talking on her behalf... but when he revealed hr as the main source, that stuff had come directly from her lips, he made her seem like a shifty liar.. and I tink she was just an unhappy mixed up silly woman
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  #1091  
Old 06-04-2017, 12:01 AM
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I think you have to be logical about this. Many within the BRF believed that Diana was probably the source however the fallout from the publication of the original book left the BRF all looking at their friends and employees with distrust because of the sheer depth and range of information leaked in that book. Let's face it, every argument has two sides and vilifying Andrew Morton for exploiting a depressed woman is rubbish. It was merely revenge served cold.

Diana didn't encourage her friends to spill, she was the main source. It really was her 'true' story. She chose Morton to write it and contacted him to do it. She spent a lot of time working with him on the book using a friend as couriers to deliver tapes to him and for him to get galleys to her. Seeing the galleys with Diana's handwritten notations and edits certainly eased as many minds as it hurt.

The timing is irrelevant, it was a story with credibility and evidence. We may not like it, think it was insensitively timed, etc. but immediately after her death, that book was used as proof that the BRF treated her badly with the rider that if she could have told us in her own words we would have known the true state of her life.
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  #1092  
Old 06-04-2017, 12:14 AM
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This tread is about her last hours death etc why can't we stop going off topic
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  #1093  
Old 06-04-2017, 12:29 AM
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This tread is about her last hours death etc why can't we stop going off topic
It's all related, because what happened in those last hours has everything to do with what went before. Like it or not, it's all one knot. It all leads to the same issue every time. No getting around it.
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  #1094  
Old 06-04-2017, 12:47 AM
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No getting around what, when many on this thread seemingly feel that Diana was self-centred, a not very good mother, silly, stupid, self-absorbed, mentally ill etc etc? What are we to take from this litany of criticism? That she did this to herself, that she made all the wrong decisions in her marriage to Charles, that he was blameless, and that therefore her death was no-one's fault but her own? Well I don't accept that, never have and never will.

I was there on the streets of London among those crowds at the time of Diana's funeral. I can honestly say (and I have been present at many occasions at which members of the BRF have been performing engagements, and in the Mall on occasions of national rejoicing) that I have never in my lifetime witnessed such a palpable outpouring of grief and sheer love for any public figure ever, and I doubt I will again.
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  #1095  
Old 06-04-2017, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Nimue View Post
It's all related, because what happened in those last hours has everything to do with what went before. Like it or not, it's all one knot. It all leads to the same issue every time. No getting around it.


Well maybe we need to cut some treads out I stopped counting at 30 that were about Diana
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  #1096  
Old 06-04-2017, 01:38 AM
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No getting around what, when many feel that Diana was self-centred, a not very good mother, silly, stupid, self-absorbed, mentally ill etc etc? What are we to take from this litany of criticism? That she did this to herself, that she made all the wrong decisions in her marriage to Charles, that he was blameless, and that therefore her death was no-one's fault but her own? Well I don't accept that, never have and never will.
What are you so keenly desirous of blaming Charles for? I truly am curious. If anything, I blame Charles for marrying Diana. He has only himself to blame for his first marriage because he failed to stand up and resist the pressure to marry her. That is his fault. But he is not to blame for the unknowns lurking in Diana's personalty make-up. He is not responsible for failing to contort himself sufficiently to please her, assuage her constant fears and desire to control him. Some things are beyond blame.

No getting around (and your post is an example of the no getting around) that Diana's last hours, death, transfer from France, funeral and internment, are all intimately wound up with how she lived her life, the decisions she made, yes. It's why we are talking about her death and funeral to begin with. No getting around it.

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I was there on the streets of London among those crowds at the time of Diana's funeral. I can honestly say (and I have been present at many occasions at which members of the BRF have been performing engagements, and in the Mall on occasions of national rejoicing) that I have never in my lifetime witnessed such a palpable outpouring of grief and love for any public figure ever, and I doubt I will again.
Perhaps we're not as innocent as we were back then, maybe we're too cynical now, so it won't happen again, but it has happened at other times. In the US the two most memorable incidents of such an out-pouring came with the death of Franklin D. Roosevelt in the mid-40's and the assassination of John F. Kennedy in 1963. Both those deaths caused the world to mourn. There have been other deaths that sent shockwaves. I am thinking of recent deaths of rock stars.

Certainly Diana's death sent a shockwave because the world's tabloids had just been showing Diana in the midst of canoodling with Dodi Fayed on a yacht in the sunny Mediterranean. A woman in her prime, gifted with all the perks of wealth and rank, had just been smiling out at cameras in a bathing suit in the arms of her lover. For it to suddenly be about a messy car accident? That's a shock.

The question is: how did it get to that? It got to that not because of Charles but because of her own self and choices in life. At some point self awareness and taking responsibility for her life would have had to have been Diana's ultimate 'recovery' from all her woes. I think this is the one disquieting aspect of the whole thing: how much Diana is posited as being without control of her situation, when in fact she drove the entire scenario, but without any admission that her reactions and actions had a part to play in what unravelled for her in her life.
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  #1097  
Old 06-04-2017, 01:41 AM
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Well maybe we need to cut some threads out I stopped counting at 30 that were about Diana
Why? Not my decision, of course, but I am curious why you feel the need to voice a desire to sever the conversation? It is a curious phenomenon I am now seeing for the 2nd time in recent days: someone dislikes the topic of a thread and starts to petition to have the thread closed. What is that?

If I don't like a thread topic, I stay clear of the thread. Reasonable?
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  #1098  
Old 06-04-2017, 02:08 AM
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This thread has, IMO, become a 'let's bash the heck out of Diana, let's criticise all her faults, (yes she was flawed, she was human,) don't let any criticism of anyone else that might have impacted her life decisions come their way, all of it was Diana's fault. Even the entire demise of the Wales marriage, Charles played no part in its breakdown. Poor long-suffering Charles, never to blame for anything!

I said when I described Diana's funeral, 'that I have witnessed', ie that I was there on the streets of London witnessing it, I wasn't there for President Kennedy's funeral.

And to compare the world wide mourning for Diana to rock stars' funerals is to further demean her isn't it though, as I know you dislike Diana I ought to have expected it.

And Yes, as I don't like the tone that this thread has taken I intend to leave it and not comment any more on it, extremely unbalanced against Diana as it has become.
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  #1099  
Old 06-04-2017, 02:19 AM
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I have one question for you:

Would you have bought any of the publications with photos taken that night had it not ended the way it did?
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  #1100  
Old 06-04-2017, 02:26 AM
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This thread has, IMO, become a 'let's bash the heck out of Diana, let's criticise all her faults, (yes she was flawed, she was human,) don't let any criticism of anyone else that might have impacted her life decisions come their way, all of it was Diana's fault. Even the entire demise of the Wales marriage, Charles played no part in its breakdown. Poor long-suffering Charles, never to blame for anything!

I said when I described Diana's funeral, 'that I have witnessed', ie that I was there on the streets of London witnessing it, I wasn't there for President Kennedy's funeral.

And to compare the world wide mourning for Diana to rock stars' funerals is to further demean her isn't it though, as I know you dislike Diana I ought to have expected it.

And Yes, as I don't like the tone that this thread has taken I intend to leave it and not comment any more on it, extremely unbalanced against Diana as it has become.
I think you are uncomfortable with varying points of view to your own because that's all I see happening here. The conversation is respectful but the views are varying. In fact I do not dislike Diana. I never knew her. I think I see her more as an historical person rather than as someone personal to my experience. (I was a teenager when she died and I had no real connection to her, except through my mother's royal interests).

I genuinely see my interest as an historical interest, and I base most all of what I say and think regarding Diana on what I have read. I see her as complex, but I also see her fans as equally complex, if not more so, and even more interesting. I live in a beehive of public image concerns. I've grown up around people very much like Diana (imo). She is not alien to me, though how she played out on the world stage is quite unique because she was British and Royal. It's a very unique story, while still being very familiar to me.

I do not demean Diana when I liken the grief at her death to the grief of fans with any beloved public figure, even rock stars. Diana's popularity was like that of a rock star imo. It had all the earmarks of celebrity. She herself knew it and she used it. That's not demeaning her. IMO.
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