Frances Shand Kydd (1936-2004) - Diana's Mother

[silverstar]

If I remember rightly, at one time Diana was living
in London with her mother.
She went to stay with her father in Norfolk for a few
days and the future Earl refused to send her back... thus
began the custody battle.
Perhaps when Frances mother came out on the side of
the Earl........... (that's family loyalty for you ! )
the case went against her and Diana stayed in Norfolk .

 

[EmpressRouge]

Ruth Fermoy was a social climber. She married the titled wealthy Baron Fermoy who was twice her age. Outwardly, she supported Viscount Althrop instead of her daughter Frances because she believed in the sanctity of marriage. However, Tina Brown suggests that she was outraged that her daughter would leave her titled husband for a "wallpaper salesman." Had Frances left Johnnie for an higher-ranking duke or marquess, Ruth might have approved. She was afraid Frances would move the grandchildren to Australia and they would develop Australian accents.

 

[Mermaid1962]

Did Lady Ruth Fermoy actually say these things? For a "social climber" she must have been quite trusted by the Queen Mother.

 

[EmpressRouge]

Did Lady Ruth Fermoy actually say these things? For a "social climber" she must have been quite trusted by the Queen Mother.

Like I mentioned, it was from Tina Brown's book. All we know for sure is that Ruth spoke out against her daughter in divorce court and Johnnie Spencer got custody of the children.

Personally, I don't think it would be a complete stretch to think this might have been a reason for Ruth's testimony against her daughter.

 

[Mermaid1962]

Is it at all possible that Ruth wanted the children to stay with their father for reasons other than that John Spencer was an aristocrat? Ruth apparently told Diana that she didn't think that marriage to Prince Charles was for her because of the Royal Family's "sense of humour and lifestyle." Surely a true social climber would press for the marriage, not try to discourage it.

 

[Katrianna]

At the time of Charles and Diana's engagement, it was rumored that their meeting and relationship was both the idea of Lady Fermoy and the Queen Mother.

 

[Mermaid1962]

Yes, I remember those stories that came out about the collaboration between the two grandmothers. The story about Lady Fermoy's statement to Diana came out fairly recently, if I remember correctly--within the last few years.

 

[georgiea]

Diana's grandmother, Ruth married for wealth. She dated her husband's older brother first before settling on Princess Diana's grandfather. The older Lord Fermony out ranked Ruth's husband, but Lady Fermony was of lower station, so she had to settle for second best. Ruth in my opinion was status conscious and push both her daughters in good social marriages, especially Frances. Ruth Fermony paraded her daughter in front of John Spencer (who was I believe engaged another girl of social stating at the time). This action shows me that Ruth was a social climber and wanted a Spencer married to Prince Charles even if the lifestyle was different. Lady Fermony did not know the three children of Queen Elizabeth would divorce their spouses. I believe Ruth and the Queen Mother influenced Prince Charles and Princess Diana. For Diana, Princess of Wales to make up with her grandmother Ruth, before she died over the Wales divorce showed their was Lady Fermony's and the Queen Mother involved in that marriage. I believe Lady Fermony and her daughter Francis never reconciled after the court case. I think Diana wanted to make peace with her grandmother, but she did have to if there was not that connection to Lady Fermony and the Queen Mother.

 

[Mermaid1962]

Possibly the Spencer children picked up on their mother's bitterness toward their grandmother.

I think Diana wanted to make peace with her grandmother, but she did have to if there was not that connection to Lady Fermony and the Queen Mother.

 

[georgiea]

Yes, Mermaid that bitterness was possible, but from what I have read on their relationship it was cordial. Diana, Princess of Wales and with Lady Femory's before and after Diana's divorce was strained and Ruth sided with Prince Charles. True to Lady Femory's status conscious ways. Remember what she did at court to Francis. I think Diana wanted to make peace with her grandmother, but she did have to if there was not that connection to Lady Fermony and the Queen Mother. BTW I think Princess Diana showed a remarkable compassion to makeup with her grandmother before Ruth died.

 

[Mermaid1962]

You could very well be right, georgiea. On the other hand, if Ruth truly believed that it was wrong for her daughter to leave her husband, it shows character that she held her view even in court. The same is true IMO of Ruth's supporting of Prince Charles. She was in a position where she would perhaps know things about Diana's behaviour which have never been known to outsiders. So if she truly believed that Diana behaved more badly than Charles did, she could take Charles' side against Diana in good conscience. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt; perhaps there was more to Ruth Lady Fermoy than being a simple social climber. That's all that I'm trying to say.

 

[georgiea]

Well I am glad that my relatives love me unconditionally. What mother goes against a daughter and a granddaughter in marriages that have gone sour? The staying blood is thicker than water goes in families that are close. I know that when Diana, Princess of Wales died she had know family members close to her except Sarah and Sarah was really not close. They became close after Diana died. I think Diana was an exceptional in her love to to Spencer grandmother to visit her on her death bed and make peace with her. Diana was fighting with her own mother, brother and sister, Jane. I think Diana really looked into her relationship with Prince Charles and saw that they both were at fault. But being the person she was she made peace with her grandmother, Ruth Femory. And I think it was because Ruth and the Queen Mother help with the marriage in the first place.

 

[georgiea]

Did Frances Shand Kydd ever make up with her mother, Lady Ruth Fermoy?

And did I read correctly that Mr Shand Kydd divorced Frances for his first wife?

 

[Lumutqueen]

We will probably never know about France and Lady Ruth.

The married on May 2nd 1969 however their marriage faltered and Shand Kydd had an affair with Marie-Pierre Becret Palmer who ran a champagne-importing business in London.Shand Kydd married Marie-Pierre in 1993 and their relationship lasted until April 1995. Afterwards he chose to live close to his first wife Janet.

So he had another affair before going back to his first wife.

 

[agogo]

I feel sad for Frances Shand Kydd; she had to live with the painful memories of her daughter's death. When someone dies, there is not reconciliation of past differences.

 

[Mermaid1962]

That is so true and why we should try to reconcile if possible while people are still among the living.

I feel sad for Frances Shand Kydd; she had to live with the painful memories of her daughter's death. When someone dies, there is not reconciliation of past differences.

 

[Mermaid1962]

I've often wondered what Diana's mother thought of these references to "mother figures".

With close friend/mother figure Lady Annabel Goldsmith, in 1989

 

[Lenora]

I sincerely would like/wish to Diana that she had became friends with Lady Annabel Goldsmith, Lucia Flecha de Lima and Lady Elsa Bowker, and, couple of others(I think Diana had some others mother figures, right?) i.e. San Lourenzo's owner (I always fogot her name) in 1980/1981, I think in this time Diana desperately needed/wanted one mother in her life, someone else give her love, affection, guidance, support, advise etc

Yes,it's true that her biological mother didn't support her at all,she even betrayed her and turned not to be her "mother " by actions.Poor princess,she needed desperately mother's support.I think if her mother had been a different woman,Diana would have never told to anyone else her secrets and would have confessed mainly to her mum.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Yes,it's true that her biological mother didn't support her at all,she even betrayed her and turned not to be her "mother " by actions.Poor princess,she needed desperately mother's support.I think if her mother had been a different woman,Diana would have never told to anyone else her secrets and would have confessed mainly to her mum.

Her mother left an abusive and unhappy marriage and the courts ruled that the children had to stay with their father (partly because her mother sided with the father).

What was the mother to do? Stay and continue being abused or leave, knowing the children wouldn't be abused themselves and would be at boarding school for most of their lives so there would be mother figures in their lives - the house mothers who would do the raising of her children anyway. (Having been to boarding school I can testify to the close relationship I have had with my boarding house mother to the extent that I am still in regular contact with her - she is my second mother).

Diana's problem was that her family wanted the grand marriage and Diana's feelings didn't come into it.

 

[muriel]

Her mother left an abusive and unhappy marriage and the courts ruled that the children had to stay with their father (partly because her mother sided with the father).

What was the mother to do? Stay and continue being abused or leave, knowing the children wouldn't be abused themselves and would be at boarding school for most of their lives so there would be mother figures in their lives - the house mothers who would do the raising of her children anyway.

Lets not forget the role of a certain Mr Shand Kydd in the divorce of the Spencers.

 

[georgiea]

I've often wondered what Diana's mother thought of these references to "mother figures".

It must have hurt her. I know when Diana, Princess of Wales died they were not talking. That must have been hardest of all.

I think Princess Diana's mother was there for her until Francis' 2nd marriage failed. Her mother helped her with wedding plans, defended her to the press on the train incident, defended her to Prince Charles about Prince Harry being health was more important than a girl baby, and took vacations together. I think Princess Diana and her mother were the same in temperament and stunning looks. Their relationship might have been difficult because of this.

 

[nascarlucy]

I recall in interviews Princess Diana talk about being or feeling lonely. She had a soft spot for those who were lonely. I wonder when she went away to boarding school if she didn't feel lonely there.

I myself never went to a boarding school (I went through the American Public School system). I knew women who have gone to boarding school. Very different experiences. Many of these women were not close to the parents (it's hard to be when you don't see them very often). Their nanny or a staff at the boarding school where they went became a second mother to them. Sometimes they would tell them things that they wouldn't tell their parents because they felt closer to them. I would imagine they never told their parents this as they probably would be hurt by this.

 

[Osipi]

Frankly... none of us really know what the relationship was like in private between Frances and Johnnie Spencer except for rumors that have floated around. The facts are that she did lose custody of the children to their father and the testimony of Frances' own mother did have a lot to do with it.

An unstable home I think was on of the reasons Diana had "fairy tale" ideas on marriage when she first married Charles. The happily ever after idea is great in fairy tale books but the reality is that in order to be happily ever after in today's world, the couple actually has to work at it... its give and take and compromising and working as a team. This was the stumbling block with BOTH Diana and Charles. Unable to form a strong relationship on common ground between the two of them, naturally the marriage went downhill from there. They both craved a loving relationship and to be honest, I do think they both deserved one. Perhaps this is also the reason why there was a divorce between Frances and Johnnie. What happened behind closed doors we can only speculate on

 

[Mermaid1962]

I agree, and her step-grandmother's, Barbara Cartland's, gifts of romantic novels didn't help matters much. If a person reads a lot of those without having any real experience with romantic relationships, they can give a person a really skewed view of what marriage is like. No one could live in that romantic state all the time and get any work done.

An unstable home I think was on of the reasons Diana had "fairy tale" ideas on marriage when she first married Charles.

 

[georgiea]

Princess Diana's last and favorite nanny made public that when she met Diana the first time Diana told her was she would not marry anyone except for love. Later, Lady Diana wrote her old nanny that she felt safe marrying Prince Charles because he would not be able to divorce her.

The divorce of Diana, Princess of Wales' parents really affected her personal relationships.

Francis Shand Kydd cared for her feelings and not her childrens. If Earl Spencer was a wife beater how come we never heard Raine Spencer complain? Francis at the end of her life did good deeds, but was an alcoholic.

Ms Shand Kydd took her second divorce hard. Princess Diana was on the phone with her constantly until they had their last falling out.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Princess Diana's last and favorite nanny made public that when she met Diana the first time Diana told her was she would not marry anyone except for love. Later, Lady Diana wrote her old nanny that she felt safe marrying Prince Charles because he would not be able to divorce her.

So she didn't marry for love but for the believed safety that she couldn't be divored.

The divorce of Diana, Princess of Wales' parents really affected her personal relationships.

Francis Shand Kydd cared for her feelings and not her childrens. If Earl Spencer was a wife beater how come we never heard Raine Spencer complain? Francis at the end of her life did good deeds, but was an alcoholic.

Abuse doesn't have to be physical to be abuse - verbal and psychological abuse is just as destructive but not as visible.

Ms Shand Kydd took her second divorce hard. Princess Diana was on the phone with her constantly until they had their last falling out.

 

[chelly]

I think more that she thought as a Royal and next in the line he would never be able to get a divorce. Also maybe that he wouldn't do things that might cause a divorce to happen. Of course we all know they were able to get a divorce.

I think they both loved each other. I also think that the problem was that she was young and they rushed it way too quickly. Maybe if they had known each other for more then 6months they may have been a better couple.

 

[georgiea]

So she didn't marry for love but for the believed safety that she couldn't be divored.

I think Diana, married for love in her own childish, way. But the safety of no divorce was important too.

 

[ghost_night554]

Post divorce did Diana see her mother? I believe she lost custody of the children but I'm assuming she still had visitations? I know she saw them on the weekends prior to the divorce. Least I think I haven't really read up on that bit in a while. I'm just going by memory.

 

[chelly]

Didn't she remarry soon afterwards and move out of the country or am I confusing her with Sarah's mother.

Ok I checked wiki, yes I know they aren't the most reliable. Essentially she lost custody of the kids because she cheated with a married man. Didn't Diana's father also cheat with a married woman. Apparently France's mother took her SIL side. (wow what a great mom). She moved to the island of Sell (west coast of scotland) with the person she cheated with. It does say that the kids visited often.

No wonder Diana had relationship issues. I had forgotten some of this.