Frances Shand Kydd (1936-2004) - Diana's Mother

[iowabelle]

Originally Posted by scooter

I read in several books that Johnny Spencer was physically abusive to Frances. That would certainly have some bearing on her wanting a divorce. One would also think that it would have some bearing on the mental state of the children, especially as they were remanded by the court to their father's custody.

I have read those accusations too, but what I think is more likely is that Johnny Spencer preferred to be dominated by women. Frances, her mother Lady Fermoy, later on Raine. I don't doubt that he was physically intimidating especially when he was angry, and the Spencers were all known for volatile, loud temperaments.

[EmpressRouge]

Originally Posted by Zonk

Empress do you remember where you read that?

And for the life of me (cause I can't recall the source) I could have sworn that supposedly Johnnie had been having an extra marital affair with a friend of Frances? Does anyone recall hearing this. It could be I am mixing up bad marriage stories.

Tina Brown's The Diana Chronicles

[Grace Angel]

I don't remember reading infidelity on Diana's father's part had anything to do with the break up of their marriage. But Diana's father and Frances were some years apart in age, I can't remember how many, and that didn't help things, much like with Charles and Diana years later. Earl Spencer wanted to be in the country, Frances wanted to be in London with society etc. So that contributed to the break up of the marriage, too as well as more serious issues.

[Warren]

Earl Spencer: 1924 - 1992
Frances: 1936 - 2004

[EmpressRouge]

Both Diana and Frances were born and expected to fit into old school, country aristocracy. It was in their blood, and they made spectacular marriages accordingly. Diana was even suppose to be a throwback to the debs of the 50s who were presented at court. Unfortunately, they married so young and did not develop their own preferences for modern city life (although Diana was living in London at the time of her engagement) until after they married their country nobleman/royal.

Johnny Spencer was like Charles in many ways. Country brought up in the traditional aristocratic way with overbearing fathers, they also take to the company of independent women. However, their first marriages were young, docile aristocrats. When Frances asserted her independence, Johnny was shocked, took offense and (emotionally) bullied her, even in public. Charles needed a strong woman and turned to Camilla, and I think it was not until after his infidelity that Diana developed her independence. Both men would remarry (happily) independent, strong-willed women.

[Menarue]

The Duke of Windsor as well. Wallis was very strong willed.
Frances made a mistake in the way she gave Earl Spencer an excuse to punish her (by getting sole custody) and I am sure she lived to regret it.

[Grace Angel]

Yes, Earl Spencer and Frances were about 12 years apart then ( maybe 11, I don't their birthdays). Charles and Diana were 12 years apart, exactly. Both Frances and Diana married too young. Had they married someone more their own age maybe it would have been less of an issue, I don't know. I think Empress Rouge's post is right on target.

[Skydragon]

Originally Posted by EmpressRouge

Both Diana and Frances were born and expected to fit into old school, country aristocracy. It was in their blood, and they made spectacular marriages accordingly. Diana was even suppose to be a throwback to the debs of the 50s who were presented at court. Unfortunately, they married so young and did not develop their own preferences for modern city life (although Diana was living in London at the time of her engagement) until after they married their country nobleman/royal.

Any sex marrying into the aristocracy is expected to fit in to the traditional ways, any that don't or won't make the effort are chewed up and spat out. I think the same problems of age difference happen across the social divide, not just within the aristocracy.

The trouble with comparisons between Frances and her daughter are that they were from completely different eras.

[EmpressRouge]

Originally Posted by Skydragon

The trouble with comparisons between Frances and her daughter are that they were from completely different eras.

This is true. I think the difference was in how society and the public reacted. Frances was branded an unfit mother and had her children taken from her. Diana, from an era more used to independent women, managing to find her niche in humanitarian work, was seen as a victim and glorified.

[Grace Angel]

Although they were from different eras ( very true) both Charles and Earl Spencer ( him more understandbly, since he was from a generation where you'd expect this) had expectactions that their wife would be a typical royal or aristocratic wife, whereas Frances and Diana were both more modern. They didn't just want to produce the heir, the spare ( in Frances's case only the heir) and live in the country, living the traditional way. Not that Diana was expected to live in the country, but she was expected to like country pursuits, which she didn't.

[Skydragon]

Originally Posted by EmpressRouge

This is true. I think the difference was in how society and the public reacted. Frances was branded an unfit mother and had her children taken from her. Diana, from an era more used to independent women, managing to find her niche in humanitarian work, was seen as a victim and glorified.

Frances is still vilified, IMO and yet she was a tragic person. Right up until her death Frances was punished by her former friends and associates, being labeled a bolter, (even though she kept the younger children with her until ordered by the courts to give them back to their father) without an ounce of compassion for her. To then loose, after 20 years of marriage, the man she had lost her children and all that she knew for, must have been heartbreaking.

She too turned to charity work, albeit local.

[Roslyn]

I'm not so sure that Frances was a modern woman, just a sad and bored one, married to a man who his former CO in the Royal Scots Greys had described as "very nice but very stupid" who had, wrongly, blamed her for the fact she did not produce the heir he wanted. And the death of their baby John was a deep tragedy in their lives from which they did not recover. Bradford quotes Spencer's former fiancee as saying he was "the best company when he was a young man, but "just became boring and wrapped up in his children and his country life".

As for Diana and country pursuits, I think she was expected to like them because before the engagement she had given every indication that she liked them very much.

ETA, having now read Skydragon's post immediately above, bearing those matters in mind, plus the fact that her own mother gave evidence against her in that custody hearing, I agree that Frances was indeed a tragic person.

[Mermaid1962]

Shades of Dodi Fayed! But Diana wasn't an 18-year-old girl.

Originally Posted by EmpressRouge

Earl Spencer was engaged to another woman and promptly dropped her when he met the 18 year old Frances.

[Grace Angel]

I guess I meant that Diana and Frances had expectations of marriage that went beyond the traditional aristocratic marriage, although I think Frances at first didn't, but as she begun to grow older did. Charles and Earl Spencer both had very traditional ideas of aristocratic marriage, where the wife liked country pursuits and the country life, produced the needed heir, and maybe a spare. But also Frances and Diana were both very young and they grew older and wanted to experience life, whereas both Charles and Earl Spencer had had their youth, and both were pretty settled down.

[Lady Meg]

Originally Posted by Skydragon

Frances is still vilified, IMO and yet she was a tragic person. Right up until her death Frances was punished by her former friends and associates, being labeled a bolter, (even though she kept the younger children with her until ordered by the courts to give them back to their father) without an ounce of compassion for her. To then loose, after 20 years of marriage, the man she had lost her children and all that she knew for, must have been heartbreaking.

She too turned to charity work, albeit local.

I heard that she was a schemer... that her and the Queen Mother put Diana directly in the path of Charles so that they might meet.. is there any truth to that?

[Zonk]

I don't believe it was Diana's mother and the Queen Mother.

From what I understand, Frances' mother, Lady Fermoy and the Queen Mother thought it would be a good idea if Diana and Charles got together and encouraged the relationship.

Diana and Charles had already met when Charles dated Diana's sister, Lady Sarah.

Furthermore, I don't believe Frances and her mother, Lady Fermoy had an exactly warm relationship. Considering that Lady Fermoy actually testified AGAINST Frances in the custody trial. I am not sure Frances forgave her mother.

I would agree with Sky that Frances had a tragic life although I would say that some of it was of her own making.

Leaving her husband (and children) for a man who then leaves you for another woman. Not nice.

Does anyone know if a book or anything substantial has ever been written about Frances? Not just snippets of information in the tabloids?

[Odette]

It was not her mother but her grand mother who supposedly arranged for Diana to meet P Charles. The two grandmothers were the "schemers" in this.
To me the tragedy is that Diana was not close enough to her mother to be able to confide in her and get advice from her before and after her marriage to Prince Charles..
Frances Shand Kydd should have made an effort to get close to her children when they were grown and earn their trust and affection.

[Zonk]

Lady Fermoy was Frances Shand Kydd's mother.

So the grandmothers are Lady Fermoy and the Queen Mother.

Having Frances as a sounding board (really the concept of a young 18-21 year old virign marrying an older man) must have screamed at Frances...this is your life...DON"T DO IT.

[Lady Meg]

Frances' grandmother was from New York. She was the late Frances Ellen Work. Frances Roche's father was Edmund, 4th Baron of Roche - son of James Roche, 3rd Baron Fermoy. Frances Ellen Work was married twice, but had two children with him, which included Frances, Diana's mother. Frances Ellen Work was a prominent part of the social circles in New York and Rhode Island. In a way she was like Bessie Wallis. She came from a wealthy family. Her father worked with the famous stockbroker Cornelius Vanderbilt (of the Vanderbilt Family - Vanderbilt Biltmore House in North Carolina) It really is a site to see, look it up. My parents went there this summer and brought back a book. I wonder if Frances Ellen Work got to visit this wonderful place. She was friends with one of the Vanderbilt's wives. Apparently one of the Spencer's married a Vanderbilt, the 10th Duke of Marlborough.

I did some research on Frances Ellen and until recently didn't realize how important The Vanderbilts really were. Interesting to find that her father worked with this man.
The two met though through a visit of James to the US, which is how they(Frances Ellen and James, 3rd Baron) became connected and that is how Diana's heritage has a line of American relatives.

Originally Posted by Zonk

Lady Fermoy was Frances Shand Kydd's mother.

Oh ok, right.. I knew someone was involved with the Queen Mother in trying to get Diana to meet Charles. Ok, right.

[Dierna23]

Originally Posted by Zonk

Does anyone know if a book or anything substantial has ever been written about Frances? Not just snippets of information in the tabloids?

There is a book - "Frances - the remarkable story of Princess Diana's mother": Amazon.com: Frances: The Remarkable Story of Princess Diana's Mother (0800153000434): Max Riddington, Gavan Naden: Books

I have no clue how it is, never read it.