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  #301  
Old 10-18-2020, 01:42 PM
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The Queen Mother and Lady Fermoy were people ingrained in the definite ways to behave and abhorred things that "just weren't done" or "beyond the pale" and actually their time was where the norm was that women were still "inferior" and "the weaker sex". Divorce, in and of itself, was a scandal and painted the woman with a huge stigma that people looked down their nose at. Being so above the "elite" society with being friends and confidante to the Queen Mother (royalty), Lady Fermoy, in her time, was afraid that the "taint" of scandal between Frances and Johnnie Spencer would also stick to her. She preserved her "standing" by siding with the "proper" and what was seen as the "wronged husband" in aristocratic eyes. The norm was to discreetly carry on a private life on the side and maintain respectability. Not run away from a marriage.

This has totally changed. When I divorced in the early 90s, it was me that moved away with us having joint custody of the kids with them living with dad in our marital home. Made sense and was best for the kids. He had a steady job and I'd been a stay at home mom for the entire marriage and only worked a low paying job. There would have been child support but I couldn't count on the ex assuring those payments were made. The kids were provided better for if they were with him. Nobody bat an eye at that arrangement at all.

In the Queen Mother's time, society really had a different outlook on what one was expected to do and adhere to.
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  #302  
Old 10-18-2020, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
The Queen Mother and Lady Fermoy were people ingrained in the definite ways to behave and abhorred things that "just weren't done" or "beyond the pale" and actually their time was where the norm was that women were still "inferior" and "the weaker sex". Divorce, in and of itself, was a scandal and painted the woman with a huge stigma that people looked down their nose at. Being so above the "elite" society with being friends and confidante to the Queen Mother (royalty), Lady Fermoy, in her time, was afraid that the "taint" of scandal between Frances and Johnnie Spencer would also stick to her. She preserved her "standing" by siding with the "proper" and what was seen as the "wronged husband" in aristocratic eyes. The norm was to discreetly carry on a private life on the side and maintain respectability. Not run away from a marriage.

This has totally changed. When I divorced in the early 90s, it was me that moved away with us having joint custody of the kids with them living with dad in our marital home. Made sense and was best for the kids. He had a steady job and I'd been a stay at home mom for the entire marriage and only worked a low paying job. There would have been child support but I couldn't count on the ex assuring those payments were made. The kids were provided better for if they were with him. Nobody bat an eye at that arrangement at all.

In the Queen Mother's time, society really had a different outlook on what one was expected to do and adhere to.
Johnny was teh wronged husband... and then Frances left him..
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  #303  
Old 10-18-2020, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
Johnny was teh wronged husband... and then Frances left him..
Johnny was also reported to be abusive and that to me is unacceptable and. like I did, Frances put herself first and left him. Johnny was left because his behavior towards Frances was unacceptable. Of course, back then, domestic violence and abuse (physical and mental) wasn't talked about and was a hush-hush behind closed doors kind of thing.

No one should have to stand abuse. By anyone. Ever.
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  #304  
Old 10-18-2020, 05:08 PM
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Johnny was also reported to be abusive and that to me is unacceptable and. like I did, Frances put herself first and left him. Johnny was left because his behavior towards Frances was unacceptable. Of course, back then, domestic violence and abuse (physical and mental) wasn't talked about and was a hush-hush behind closed doors kind of thing.

No one should have to stand abuse. By anyone. Ever.
There is no evidence of this...
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  #305  
Old 10-18-2020, 05:21 PM
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There is no evidence of this...
As I've said, in that time period, there wouldn't be concrete evidence (such as police reports, open discussion at the time on domestic abuse and such) because it "just wasn't done". Spouses were supposed to put up and shut up and not rock the boat. Especially if they were "people of status and means". Kept away in a closet kind of thing.

Perhaps Frances was ahead of her time and took action when it was needed. It cost her a lot in the long run but she found happiness elsewhere.

Nothing is ever as cut and dried when it comes to understanding why people did the things they did in an era we've never experienced ourselves.
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  #306  
Old 10-18-2020, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
As I've said, in that time period, there wouldn't be concrete evidence (such as police reports, open discussion at the time on domestic abuse and such) because it "just wasn't done". Spouses were supposed to put up and shut up and not rock the boat. Especially if they were "people of status and means". Kept away in a closet kind of thing.

Perhaps Frances was ahead of her time and took action when it was needed. It cost her a lot in the long run but she found happiness elsewhere.

Nothing is ever as cut and dried when it comes to understanding why people did the things they did in an era we've never experienced ourselves.
I thought that if people made assertions about people in this forum they were supposed to supply evidence. And Frances didn't find happiness elsewhere. her second marriage lasted some few years and ended in divorce and she became a heavy drinker...
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  #307  
Old 10-18-2020, 05:47 PM
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I thought that if people made assertions about people in this forum they were supposed to supply evidence. And Frances didn't find happiness elsewhere. her second marriage lasted some few years and ended in divorce and she became a heavy drinker...
I've read reports of abuse in a few of the Diana books I've had over the years. Can't remember exactly which ones they were at this time and I'm not going to hunt them down. There is this article which explains Frances' situation.

https://www.prweb.com/releases/2004/06/prweb136883.htm

Leaving an abusive relationship behind does not guarantee a happy life but I'm tending to think that if Frances left Johnny with abuse being any part of the reason, I would say that the woman was right in the head to do so. Society at that time didn't think so at that time.

That's what we're really looking at here. Society and how divorce (for any reason) was treated. It used to be that there were people "hire" to explicitly "catch" a couple in the act and as divorce because of adultery as a sure fire thing, it was quite a popular way back then to get one.
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  #308  
Old 10-18-2020, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
I've read reports of abuse in a few of the Diana books I've had over the years. Can't remember exactly which ones they were at this time and I'm not going to hunt them down. There is this article which explains Frances' situation.

https://www.prweb.com/releases/2004/06/prweb136883.htm

Leaving an abusive relationship behind does not guarantee a happy life but I'm tending to think that if Frances left Johnny with abuse being any part of the reason, I would say that the woman was right in the head to do so. Society at that time didn't think so at that time.

That's what we're really looking at here. Society and how divorce (for any reason) was treated. It used to be that there were people "hire" to explicitly "catch" a couple in the act and as divorce because of adultery as a sure fire thing, it was quite a popular way back then to get one.
Again there is no evidence and I would have said as it is quite a serious allegation, there should be some actual proof before people say this. Frances left Johnny because she had grown bored with him and he was a dull rather stupid country farmer kind of man.. and because she had fallen in love with Peter Shand Kydd. If he was indeed violent with her i would expect that Diana would have been aware of it, and would have been more sympathetic towards her mother but she wasn't all that close to her mother much of the time and clearly could never get over teh fact that her mother had left her...
And what you describe of hiring a correspondnet, while it did happen was in fact collusion and would get a divorce stopped if it was found out....Im not really sure why you bruoght it up.....
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  #309  
Old 10-27-2020, 06:55 PM
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Diana told Settlen she saw her father hit her mother (slapped her). I think though it was in essence estrangement because Frances resented her husband taking her to many doctors to see why SHE couldnot produce a male heir. I hope one of the doctors told him the male determines the sex.
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