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  #2121  
Old 06-16-2018, 02:15 AM
Lady Nimue's Avatar
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Originally Posted by M. Payton View Post
Yet it is a known fact that Charles and Camilla dated and he was in love with her before he married Diana
We don't know that they were 'in love'. I'm not splitting hairs. They definitely were good friends, and in the language of the royals Camilla was a 'confidant' of Charles, but he had several confidants in those years leading up to his marriage. The only reason we know about Camilla is because by the 90's Camilla was indeed the primary mistress and the easiest mark for Diana, so Diana went spinning the story regarding Camilla and Charles being 'in love'. A myth was born, and it's been one durable myth indeed.

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they carved their initials in a tree if I remember (if that is wrong then I do apologize for my error)
No, what you are recalling is a famous picture of the two of them taken in front of a tree that had carvings. I'm pretty sure their initials were not among the carvings.

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Originally Posted by M. Payton View Post
and he was [in love with Camilla] according to others what when she married elsewhere he was not happy.
Charles expressed regret and sadness (musing on a might-have-been) when he learned of Camilla's marriage.They had just had their fling and he was fresh in the memory of that idyll with her, but to claim that they were 'in love' is to pretty much disrespect Camilla's life at that time. She was in love with Parker-Bowles and had set her cap for him. Marriage to Parker-Bowles was likely one of her happiest days. I do not believe Diana's spin that Camilla and Charles were 'in love' from way back.

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Originally Posted by M. Payton View Post
And then after the death of Diana they, Charles and Camilla married even though they waited a while.
Yes, they did that, but after their relationship entered phase 2 in the late 80's, when the Wales marriage was no more a functioning marriage. I believe what Charles says in this regard (we have no testimony stating that Charles has trouble with the truth, Diana we have in plenty in that regard).

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Originally Posted by M. Payton View Post
I have nothing against Charles or Camilla yet I do believe that they were destined to be together
I don't believe that for a moment. Camilla's 'destiny' was to be the country wife of Parker-Bowles. She was content. Clearly Camilla and Charles were great good friends but I don't think anything that happened beyond friendship was ever destined. That's become the myth, and maybe it is a necessary myth that makes the 'bitter pill' of a failed Wales marriage go down easier. But this I maintain, from all my (unfortunate ) reading on this couple: Charles was Diana's to lose, she held all the cards, and still she managed to throw away her advantages. How to explain that? Maybe the truth is a bit hard to bear? Rather make it about a destined 'true love' that could not be denied rather than a silly young woman too immature to get-a-grip on herself.

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Originally Posted by M. Payton View Post
and that the royal family did not want Camilla for his wife at first, even after the death of Diana.....
Camilla and Charles were a fling in the early 70's. No mention of marriage. Camilla was dating Parker-Bowles and hell-bent in that direction. And for after Diana's death, I don't know. Maybe you know more about that.

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Originally Posted by M. Payton View Post
I think honestly there is something to the story that Charles loved Camilla before, during and after Diana......it happens in life to many other people also and people change and grow in different directions as they get older.
That's Diana's spin. How else to explain her own failure at the marriage? This gorgeous woman whom the public adored as 'the all good Diana'? It had to be a condition beyond her control, an evil sorceress, and so it was Diana lit upon the convenience of Camilla.

I will always maintain that Camilla and Charles 'fell in love' during phase 2 of their relationship that began in the late 80's, or at least Charles did. Camilla maybe took more time, we'll never know really, though without question they are a mutually loving couple now. I think Charles is grateful to Camilla to a depth we can only imagine. Camilla really did save him. In effect, Diana threw them together. Diana manifested her worst fear perhaps.

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Originally Posted by M. Payton View Post
I see Diana as an insecure young woman not knowing who she was with no self-confidence or self-esteem and Charles as more worldly and mature and both had very different interests and views of life...
Yes and no. Diana was a player, Charles actually wasn't. That's the irony. It's staring everyone in the face but none can see the reality: Charles was the one-woman man willing to live a domestic life with wife (Diana), children, gardens, and entertaining. It was Diana who had the itchy feet, unable to focus, seeing no value in anything her recently acquired husband had to offer. (One can only guess at the nightmare Charles found himself confronting 'until death').

It's true, I have enormous sympathy for Charles, far less for Diana who I see as too often purposefully cruel in her self-absorption. I give her very little slack.

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Originally Posted by M. Payton View Post
even though no one calls this an arranged marriage from all that I have read over the decades, Charles was pressured into marrying by the family and the royal family thought Diana fit the bill for them......they made a huge mistake in that as we have all seen and read.
Seen from Charles' perspective, I am reminded of a quote from the film 'Four Weddings and a Funeral': "Tom: Oh, I don't know, Charlie. Unlike you, I never expected 'the thunderbolt.' I always just hoped that, that I'd meet some nice friendly girl, like the look of her, hope the look of me didn't make her physically sick, then pop the question and, um, settle down and be happy. It worked for my parents. Well, apart from the divorce and all that." It was likely like that for Charles: assumed that a girl from his class would understand what was afoot, and he was right. Diana did know what was afoot. She was one of the girls in the pool of eligible ladies around Charles. She made all the rest up when her wild behavior as the Princess of Wales was being outed. JMO.
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  #2122  
Old 06-16-2018, 03:02 AM
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Okay, I will say that the 3 of them really make for a juicy soap-opera don't they. Given all the facts we none of us really know the ins and outs of what went on in their lives. I have read lots of books on them and still get confused to this day, so IMHO I will never know the whole truth of these 3 people. The only thing I do know for sure is that this was a mismatch made in hell for all of them, Yes Diana had her problems as we all can see and for me I see this young girl with no world experience marrying someone who is so far out of her depth at the time as young, inexperienced, and very immature for any man.
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  #2123  
Old 06-16-2018, 06:01 AM
Nobility
 
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Originally Posted by M. Payton View Post

Okay, I will say that the 3 of them really make for a juicy soap-opera don't they. Given all the facts we none of us really know the ins and outs of what went on in their lives. I have read lots of books on them and still get confused to this day, so IMHO I will never know the whole truth of these 3 people. The only thing I do know for sure is that this was a mismatch made in hell for all of them, Yes Diana had her problems as we all can see and for me I see this young girl with no world experience marrying someone who is so far out of her depth at the time as young, inexperienced, and very immature for any man.
I agree entirely. I see unreasoned dislike and distinct lack of empathy here for a teenage girl, whose main prize for the much older man she married, was her virginity! Who seems to be expected to have had emotional intelligence way beyond the capacity -not of ALL teenage virgins- she was possessed of, because of her own life experience. She appears to be shouldered with the responsibility for her husband straying, ie if the silly child had put up and shut up, as had centuries of her forebears, she'd have kept him? Do women not have the right to expect their husbands to share only THEIR bed? And let's for a moment suppose that Charles' and Camilla's relationship was entirely platonic -and a relationship in which a husband shares secrets with another woman, is emotionally charged, and probably full of sexual yearnings, is FAR more dangerous to a marriage that the odd bonk with willing others- how's the wife going to compete with those intimate gifts passing between husband and girlfriend? How's she going to cope with the in jokes and knowing/meaningful looks which pass between husband and the woman with whom he has a long standing relationship? What I'm talking about here is a TRULY intimate relationship which has stood the test of time. It was the relationship which would have prevented any husband from forming something similar with the woman he was married to.

Charles and Diana both entered the marriage freely. I'm told by her detractors that she loved the title more than the man, but at 19 how much experience of the world -of being in and out of love- did she have. Perhaps we can say that what Charles loved about her was her virginity on one level and her lack of life experience on another. Having availed himself of the former, the chances are, as they were intellectually polarized, the latter may have irritated.

There is absolutely no point in saying he/she SHOULD have. They did or they didn't. I find myself wondering what might have occurred if, instead of Diana going through various therapies alone, if they'd both sought counselling from Relate
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  #2124  
Old 06-16-2018, 06:07 AM
Majesty
 
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I think the problems in Charles and Di's marriage would have stumped any counsellor... She was inexperienced.. and that was to be expected but she was also mixed up, immature, and traumatised IMO still by her parents' unhappy marriage. I think when she got married, it brought out again all her own unhappiness as a child.. in that she feared abandonment, she feared that she had walked into a marriage that was doomed to be as bad as her parents..
Charles was fond of her,, its not at all the case that all he prized was her virginity.. but I think that when faced with her lakc of knowledge of many things, coupled with a stubborn side and the irrationality brught about by her bulimia, he realised he had made a mistake...
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  #2125  
Old 06-16-2018, 06:55 AM
Majesty
 
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Yes, and there were Charles's many faults too. Fixed in his ways, stubborn, quite needy, unwilling to see another's points of view, expecting that his young wife would immediately mould herself into his way of life, adopt his friends, etc. making no attempt himself to meet or get to know any of her pals. And unlike Diana with her inexperience, still emotionally bound to another woman....
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  #2126  
Old 06-16-2018, 07:04 AM
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I think that at that time, it was expected that the wife would adapt to her husband and his family, rather than the other way around. But Diana was hardly cut off from her own friends... she was just expected to get on to an extent with Charles' friends. and with the RF. She didn't get on with the RF, within a few months, I think that all of them found her hard to understand... and that she had changed from what she was like during the courtship. I think the queen hoped it was due to pregnancy that she was so emotional and highly strung but it was more than that....
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  #2127  
Old 06-16-2018, 08:28 AM
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And so none of Charles's flaws or failings had anything to do with the breakdown of the Wales marriage. It was just Diana, Diana all the way, then...
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  #2128  
Old 06-16-2018, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
I think the problems in Charles and Di's marriage would have stumped any counsellor... She was inexperienced.. and that was to be expected but she was also mixed up, immature, and traumatised IMO still by her parents' unhappy marriage. I think when she got married, it brought out again all her own unhappiness as a child.. in that she feared abandonment, she feared that she had walked into a marriage that was doomed to be as bad as her parents..
Charles was fond of her,, its not at all the case that all he prized was her virginity.. but I think that when faced with her lakc of knowledge of many things, coupled with a stubborn side and the irrationality brught about by her bulimia, he realised he had made a mistake...

I think we may safely say that, any affection he had for her wasn't entirely unconditional, as possibly can be said of hers, for him once she realized his for her wasn't the all consuming one on one passion that Barbara Cartland novels promised.
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  #2129  
Old 06-16-2018, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
And so none of Charles's flaws or failings had anything to do with the breakdown of the Wales marriage. It was just Diana, Diana all the way, then...

I believe we're being encouraged to believe that to be the case, certainly.
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  #2130  
Old 06-16-2018, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Nimue View Post
A lot of excuses there for her. Believe it the way you will, but accept that the business that Charles was in love with Camilla is purely Diana's spin, with which Charles and Camilla are endlessly hammered with. It is not fact, it is a belief that Diana's story is the one true version.
Even Charles had come out and said "they've turned us into a bloody soap opera".

I do think that Diana sincerely believed that Charles loved Camilla from the get go even before the wedding but perhaps it was a distortion of perspective on Diana's part. Just coming out of her teenage years with a head full of Barbara Cartland romances ideas, with still being quite young, its easy to believe that Diana hadn't reached the mental maturity yet enough to realize that love comes in all different forms.

Because of a fling which ended when Camilla married Andrew, the "romance" part of Camilla and Charles' relationship took on a another form of maintaining a best friend relationship. So, it is very possible to say that Charles continued to "love" Camilla but at that time, it also embraced her husband and Camilla's growing family. Camilla and Charles had an intimate relationship that involved love but I'd compare it to the loving relationship I have with my sister. I love her to the ends of the earth and back but its a totally different relationship than I have with my husband. In some respects, I am able to express myself more openly and honestly with my sister than my husband.

I can kind of echo this triangle in a way by personal experience also. I was married and met a man who became my best friend and confidant during the last years of a ready to be buried marriage. We were not involved romantically at all. In fact, I kind of played "cupid" to help him court and marry someone during this time. He was a port in storm where I could go when I needed to and a calming influence. This is how I envision Charles and Camilla's relationship when they did start seeing each other again when Charles' marriage "irretrievably broke down". Everyone needs a port in storm where they are totally accepted, loved and can be comforted and give comfort.

Like Charles and Camilla, things happened over the years and they both realized they wanted to walk the rest of the way in life together. I did the same with my best friend. 8 years after becoming best friends, being separated from each other (due to other relationships) for a few years, we did the same as Charles and Camilla did and married. That was going on 21 years ago.

Diana, in her perspective, could only see "loving" someone else as a threat to her being loved by her own husband and she wanted, needed and sought to ensure that the only person that Charles loved was her. For me, I think it was due to her age and lack of mental maturity to realize that love isn't confined to just one person or one object or one kind of food. Its tunnel vision when it comes to love. She acted on what she knew.
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  #2131  
Old 06-16-2018, 09:22 AM
Majesty
 
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With all due respect to you Osipi, and you know I do, it would be a rare person, especially a 19 year old, who would implicitly believe that a very long sexual relationship which had begun again after Camilla's children were born was truly over. Especially if she sensed that Charles's feelings as her fiancé weren't solely and completely focused on her. As they should have been, as any woman marrying a man she loves, expects.

The relationship with Camilla had continued on and on through Charles's romance with Anna Wallace and afterwards, (and the end of the Charles/Anna Wallace affair, which ended because she objected to his intentions to Camilla at a ball, wasn't exactly years before Charles started courting Diana.)

I do not believe, by the way, that Charles was sleeping with Camilla during his engagement to Diana. However, I do believe their affair continued until he had made up his mind to be serious about this young girl. And I also believe that while he felt it was his duty to marry Diana and he was attracted to her he was emotionally in thrall to Camilla and really always had been since their dating days in their twenties.
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  #2132  
Old 06-16-2018, 09:27 AM
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You bring up points I had forgotten about. Perhaps there was a contingency to Charles and Camilla's relationship before marriage that is, IMO, kind of unique to the aristocracy and that is the concept of open marriage. Andrew Parker Bowles was not known for remaining faithful during his marriage and with that in mind, he probably didn't expect his wife to either. That's a whole different kettle of fish that could have added to the Charles and Camilla relationship.

Perhaps the latest of these conversations, as good as they are, could be moved to the Charles and Diana thread as we're getting away from discussing Diana's legacy.
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  #2133  
Old 06-16-2018, 09:36 AM
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Yes, and there were Charles's many faults too. Fixed in his ways, stubborn, quite needy, unwilling to see another's points of view, expecting that his young wife would immediately mould herself into his way of life, adopt his friends, etc. making no attempt himself to meet or get to know any of her pals. And unlike Diana with her inexperience, still emotionally bound to another woman....

Silly child, perhaps, to expect that, after he'd done her the honour of marrying her, elevating her status, and making her mother to his children, he'd do more than have a mild fondness for her?
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  #2134  
Old 06-16-2018, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by M. Payton View Post

Okay, I will say that the 3 of them really make for a juicy soap-opera don't they. Given all the facts we none of us really know the ins and outs of what went on in their lives. I have read lots of books on them and still get confused to this day, so IMHO I will never know the whole truth of these 3 people. The only thing I do know for sure is that this was a mismatch made in hell for all of them, Yes Diana had her problems as we all can see and for me I see this young girl with no world experience marrying someone who is so far out of her depth at the time as young, inexperienced, and very immature for any man.
I look forward to seeing this played out in "The Crown". I know there will be lots of fiction but it will be interesting.
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  #2135  
Old 06-16-2018, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Tsaritsa View Post
Silly child, perhaps, to expect that, after he'd done her the honour of marrying her, elevating her status, and making her mother to his children, he'd do more than have a mild fondness for her?

'Whatever fond means'?


LaRae
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  #2136  
Old 06-16-2018, 11:36 AM
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'Whatever fond means'?


LaRae

"Of course".
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  #2137  
Old 06-16-2018, 11:45 AM
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'Whatever fond means'?
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Originally Posted by Tsaritsa View Post
"Of course".
Good play on words there.

What it all boils down to is that there are so many intrinsicalities surrounding all the people involved in this royal soap opera that, from the outside looking in, we'll never be able to truly understand it, come to a precise conclusion on what was or how it all came to be or remotely begin to understand these people completely and totally.

It does make for interesting discussions though.
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  #2138  
Old 06-16-2018, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Tsaritsa View Post
Silly child, perhaps, to expect that, after he'd done her the honour of marrying her, elevating her status, and making her mother to his children, he'd do more than have a mild fondness for her?
what does that mean? Are you sayng that Diana sould not have expected more than a mild fondness>?
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  #2139  
Old 06-16-2018, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Good play on words there.

What it all boils down to is that there are so many intrinsicalities surrounding all the people involved in this royal soap opera that, from the outside looking in, we'll never be able to truly understand it, come to a precise conclusion on what was or how it all came to be or remotely begin to understand these people completely and totally.

It does make for interesting discussions though.

Aww! A big Thank-you from me, Osipi.

I fully support that we don't know what it's like to be someone else and live their lives. However, we maybe able to get closer than we think because for Royals, as with the rest of us, there are finite possibilities to all situations. It makes calculated possibilities likely to be close to the truth. Precise conclusions are always likely to be controversial, though. It does, as you say, make for interesting discussions
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  #2140  
Old 06-16-2018, 12:35 PM
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what does that mean? Are you sayng that Diana sould not have expected more than a mild fondness>?

Tongue in cheek with a touch of irony? With hindsight, had her expectations of married bliss with Charles been lower, possibly she'd have coped better?
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