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  #2101  
Old 04-30-2018, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Missy- View Post
Strictly speaking you are correct, but I think Kitty has made it clear that she's talking about soft diplomacy, which Diana was a pro at. The government may have directed her to go to a certain country, but the charm she laid on was not something the government could order up, and it was arguably as powerful if not more than the actual diplomats' work.
Yes that is what I was trying to get my point across. She was a pro at soft diplomacy and you are right it can be a powerful tool. Also heads of states, world and foreign leaders, ect... all wanted to meet Diana and visit her country.
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  #2102  
Old 04-30-2018, 09:55 PM
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My first reaction was you have to be kidding......so, i’ll leave it at, JMO, that’s a stretch for me.
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  #2103  
Old 04-30-2018, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Missy- View Post
Strictly speaking you are correct, but I think Kitty has made it clear that she's talking about soft diplomacy, which Diana was a pro at. The government may have directed her to go to a certain country, but the charm she laid on was not something the government could order up, and it was arguably as powerful if not more than the actual diplomats' work.
I don't think Kitty mentioned soft diplomacy at all in her original comments.

Diana had absolutely no influence on policy soft or otherwise.

There are considerable doubts raised about the power of soft diplomacy and if it does exist it can be wielded by a Monarch and possibly the Heir - the spouse just doesn't do it.

Spouses don't even get to talk to politicans or Monarchs of other countries about serious issues.
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  #2104  
Old 04-30-2018, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by cepe View Post
She didn't in the same way even the spouses of Monarchs haven't changed relationships.

The royals have no power between countries - that lies with Government.

She was the wife to the heir to the Throne - no diplomatic power at all.
I agree and disagree at the same time, which is rather confusing. To make myself clearer, I see royals nowadays to a certain extent among a country's top diplomats. When they host a state visit, or pay a state or official visit overseas, or simply accompany a business, cultural, scientific or sports delegation in a semi-official or unofficial visit to another country, they are essentially being diplomats. What has changed , I think, is that they no longer engage in personal diplomacy by themselves (i.e. without government supervision/ advice) as perhaps Queen Victoria or even King Edward VII still did, even though they already lived under parliamentary government.
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  #2105  
Old 04-30-2018, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cepe View Post
I don't think Kitty mentioned soft diplomacy at all in her original comments.

Diana had absolutely no influence on policy soft or otherwise.

There are considerable doubts raised about the power of soft diplomacy and if it does exist it can be wielded by a Monarch and possibly the Heir - the spouse just doesn't do it.

Spouses don't even get to talk to politicans or Monarchs of other countries about serious issues.
Actually I did mention soft diplomacy. The royals are supposed to be a soft power for the UK and you are telling me that Diana wasn't great at it? Whats the point of royal tours then?
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  #2106  
Old 04-30-2018, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cepe View Post
I don't think Kitty mentioned soft diplomacy at all in her original comments.

Diana had absolutely no influence on policy soft or otherwise.

There are considerable doubts raised about the power of soft diplomacy and if it does exist it can be wielded by a Monarch and possibly the Heir - the spouse just doesn't do it.

Spouses don't even get to talk to politicans or Monarchs of other countries about serious issues.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitty1224 View Post
I have read time and time again how when Diana went on royal tours outside the UK, she was great with soft diplomacy, she won people over, she had charm as well. In a sense she was a secret weapon to the monarchy and parliament. Every heads of states, foreign leaders, other royal members, US Presidents, politicians all wanted to meet her. She was in demand. She actually made it seem that UK was bigger than it actually was. She was an economic force boosting tourism in the countries she would visit. Does any of you guys have other examples of Diana and diplomacy?
She was aces at soft diplomacy, she had Ronald Reagan and scads of other high-power people who were totally enamored with her. She influenced diplomacy by making the British monarchy/government more palatable than it had been in a long time. Again, we aren't talking about policy making, we are talking about influence.
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  #2107  
Old 05-01-2018, 12:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Missy- View Post
She was aces at soft diplomacy, she had Ronald Reagan and scads of other high-power people who were totally enamored with her. She influenced diplomacy by making the British monarchy/government more palatable than it had been in a long time. Again, we aren't talking about policy making, we are talking about influence.
Wow I didn't know she made the monarchy and government more palatable. She sure did make GB seem larger than it actually was. Every high power people were drawn to her and wanted to meet her!
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  #2108  
Old 05-01-2018, 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Kitty1224 View Post
Wow I didn't know she made the monarchy and government more palatable.
That's because Missy has provided no source for what seems to be just her opinion.

Monarchy and government more palatable to whom and when? That's a huge statement and completely fact-free and context-free.

Four years prior to the marriage the Queen had had a wildly successful silver jubilee and just one year earlier there were public celebrations for the Queen Mother's 80th birthday.

I don't recall the monarchy being in need of a specific public relations boost at that time.
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  #2109  
Old 05-23-2018, 04:08 AM
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What legacy Diana left? personally, the knowledge that God exists, no doubt about that.
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  #2110  
Old 05-24-2018, 12:48 AM
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Originally Posted by anbrida View Post
What legacy Diana left? personally, the knowledge that God exists, no doubt about that.
what on earth has whether God exists got to do with Diana's legacy...
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  #2111  
Old 05-24-2018, 05:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
what on earth has whether God exists got to do with Diana's legacy...
slippery slope ...
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  #2112  
Old 06-14-2018, 12:40 PM
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I am cross-posting here due to the topic of Queen accompanying Meghan today, straying into reflections about Diana:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
I believe Meghan is someone who has a lot fo warm feelings for family and a wish to heal wounds. That's what Harry needs and that what she can give to Her Majesty. I believe the Queen recognizes that, that is deep felt but , due to the facts of her new life, needs to be adapted to a Royal life. They will show her, but they won't try to break her into the Royal mould like they did with her late mother-in-law. And thus far, it seems as if they all delight in her. (You know, there are people like that! Who don't have a bad thought against others without being naive or easily influecible by negative people. I am married to such a man. I am so fortunate!!! As is Harry and his family!)
Regarding Diana: That was a different era, which the royals have learned from. I don't think it was approached as "breaking" Diana though. It was simply assumed that Diana as an aristocrat would know and follow the unwritten rules of that era. However, it failed to be recognized and understood that Diana was young, innocent, needy, headstrong, and full of dreams of happily-ever-after. She had not had the opportunity to find out who she was as a person. That's part of the difference from what we are seeing today.

It was actually Diana's trial-by-fire that brought the royal family into an entirely new era and a different approach to welcoming new brides into the royal family.
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  #2113  
Old 06-14-2018, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaiaMia_53 View Post
It was actually Diana's trial by fire that brought the royal family into an entirely new era and a different approach to welcoming new brides into the royal family.
Actually Diana was given help (she just was too 'headstrong' to accept guidance we now know). We have to be cautious regarding how Diana painted the situation years later to garner sympathy for herself.

What has changed, I think, has been the vetting process for royal brides and the dispensing with the archaic demands of 'purity and innocence'. Love is ruling choices and that is making all the difference. That's the major impact from the experience of Diana, I think.
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  #2114  
Old 06-14-2018, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Nimue View Post
Actually Diana was given help (she just was too 'headstrong' to accept guidance we now know). We have to be cautious regarding how Diana painted the situation years later to garner sympathy for herself.

What has changed, I think, has been the vetting process for royal brides and the dispensing with the archaic demands of 'purity and innocence'. Love is ruling choices and that is making all the difference. That's the major impact from the experience of Diana, I think.
I disagree that Diana necessarily 'painted' anything. She clearly experienced what she experienced as a young innocent who had not had an opportunity to find out who she was as a person prior to marrying. She did feel isolated and alone particularly as the marriage progressed. In the beginning, she was expected to know how to behave as an aristocrat, and to buck up with a stiff upper lip as the wife of an heir to the throne. There are a number of star-crossed histories of royal brides down through the ages. After Diana is a stark contrast from before Diana, especially as pertains to the modern British royal family.

Help surely was extended to Diana at some point (once it was recognized how hard a time she was having emotionally), but it proved to be too little too late. Diana clearly had emotional issues stemming from an unhappy childhood with battling/divorced parents. Her headstrong rebelliousness was mostly in reaction to not feeling loved, and not being willing to meekly accept that state of affairs. So obviously her emotional unsteadiness and youthful inexperience was not helped by being caught in a marriage in which she realized that her husband loved another woman. That's the biggest difference from what we see today. Also, no one could have predicted the OTT media adulation, which no one was prepared to guide Diana through, much less to protect her from.

Both of Diana's sons learned from their parents' marriage. That's one of the legacies of Diana's life. William and Harry both (in different trajectories of course) were friends first with their respective brides. And most important of all, both were absolutely certain they were in love, absolutely supportive, and absolutely convinced that their brides truly loved them back and could handle living life in a fishbowl as well as being equipped to ace all the requirements of royal protocol and life in the royal firm (minus of course age-old British upper-class spousal unfaithfulness).
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  #2115  
Old 06-15-2018, 12:00 AM
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I agree with much of what you say here, Maia_Mia53; but I have to disagree about Diana not being given help. She began having therapeutic treatment to deal with her problems early in her marriage and saw medical doctors. She was also taken around to TV and radio stations to learn about the media. She even took phone calls, anonymously, in the Buckingham Palace Press Office, before her marriage.
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  #2116  
Old 06-15-2018, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
I agree with much of what you say here, Maia_Mia53; but I have to disagree about Diana not being given help. She began having therapeutic treatment to deal with her problems early in her marriage and saw medical doctors. She was also taken around to TV and radio stations to learn about the media. She even took phone calls, anonymously, in the Buckingham Palace Press Office, before her marriage.
I have to say, the therapeutic treatment Diana supposedly received included giving her pills to deal with the symptoms, but not the actual problem. Ultimately, Diana and Charles' issues stemmed from a really bad combination that made it the perfect storm. But psychology, and thus treatment, in those days were much different than what they are today.

And I think Diana's best legacy are her sons. I also believe William and Harry are Prince Charles' best legacy. Issues change over time, but their pursuit of what they believe is right and the compassion they've offered to those in need are the best thing that their parents have been able to teach them.
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  #2117  
Old 06-15-2018, 08:53 AM
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I agree about the fact that psychiatry was a whole different ball of wax at the time Diana first started to go down that road. We were barely out of the "mother's little helpers" era and you stated it right on the money, jacqui, when you state they treated the symptoms rather than the address the problem. We've come a long way since then.

Its occurred to me too that during the Diana years, it was also the beginning of the "warts and all" era where all aspects of a royal person were laid bare in the press. When we think about how the David and Wallis affair was barely mentioned in the British press and then look ahead to the Diana years, we see the swing to anything goes when it came to reporting on these people. Warts and all. From one extreme to another.

Now the need for balance is recognized and the work by Diana's sons and the rest of the family to draw the line between what is public and what is private is a full blown attempt to have a middle road. We see the royals as being human beings (warts and all) but the time for airing dirty laundry in the press is hopefully a thing of the past.

Perhaps part of Diana's legacy is the quest for balance.
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  #2118  
Old 06-15-2018, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by MaiaMia_53 View Post
I disagree that Diana necessarily 'painted' anything. She clearly experienced what she experienced as a young innocent who had not had an opportunity to find out who she was as a person prior to marrying. She did feel isolated and alone particularly as the marriage progressed. In the beginning, she was expected to know how to behave as an aristocrat, and to buck up with a stiff upper lip as the wife of an heir to the throne. There are a number of star-crossed histories of royal brides down through the ages. After Diana is a stark contrast from before Diana, especially as pertains to the modern British royal family.
Everything you state is from what she spun. It's completely her version of her royal life, her claims (and they are suspect as a result in my view because she was in significant hot water when she came up with all that to deflect guilt).

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaiaMia_53 View Post
Help surely was extended to Diana at some point (once it was recognized how hard a time she was having emotionally), but it proved to be too little too late.
Not that simple. Diana's behavior was extreme from the get-go, from directly after the engagement was official. Help came in myriad ways. She would have none of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaiaMia_53 View Post
Diana clearly had emotional issues stemming from an unhappy childhood with battling/divorced parents. Her headstrong rebelliousness was mostly in reaction to not feeling loved, and not being willing to meekly accept that state of affairs. So obviously her emotional unsteadiness and youthful inexperience was not helped by being caught in a marriage in which she realized that her husband loved another woman. That's the biggest difference from what we see today. Also, no one could have predicted the OTT media adulation, which no one was prepared to guide Diana through, much less to protect her from.
A lot of excuses there for her. Believe it the way you will, but accept that the business that Charles was in love with Camilla is purely Diana's spin, with which Charles and Camilla are endlessly hammered with. It is not fact, it is a belief that Diana's story is the one true version.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaiaMia_53 View Post
Both of Diana's sons learned from their parents' marriage. That's one of the legacies of Diana's life. William and Harry both (in different trajectories of course) were friends first with their respective brides. And most important of all, both were absolutely certain they were in love, absolutely supportive, and absolutely convinced that their brides truly loved them back and could handle living life in a fishbowl as well as being equipped to ace all the requirements of royal protocol and life in the royal firm (minus of course age-old British upper-class spousal unfaithfulness).
I agree with the sum of this, though I would put it less as a legacy of Diana, than of Charles. With Charles' second wife the sons saw what it can look like to have a solid relationship in a marriage. Unfortunately, Diana never modeled that for her sons. Left just to her, they would be hard pressed to know what they could hold out for. You posit a negative cautionary tale from Diana, I posit a positive modeling from Charles. I suppose both can work, though I think the latter is more powerful. Left just with Diana, they could have been terrified of making a mistake. Left with Charles they were shown that a solid marriage could be achieved.
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  #2119  
Old 06-16-2018, 12:38 AM
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A lot of excuses there for her. Believe it the way you will, but accept that the business that Charles was in love with Camilla is purely Diana's spin, with which Charles and Camilla are endlessly hammered with. It is not fact, it is a belief that Diana's story is the one true version.


Yet it is a known fact that Charles and Camilla dated and he was in love with her before he married Diana, they carved their initials in a tree if I remember (if that is wrong then I do apologize for my error) and he was according to others what when she married elsewhere he was not happy. And then after the death of Diana they, Charles and Camilla married even though they waited a while. I have nothing against Charles or Camilla yet I do believe that they were destined to be together and that the royal family did not want Camilla for his wife at first, even after the death of Diana.....I think honestly there is something to the story that Charles loved Camilla before, during and after Diana......it happens in life to many other people also and people change and grow in different directions as they get older. I see Diana as an insecure young woman not knowing who she was with no self-confidence or self-esteem and Charles as more worldly and mature and both had very different interests and views of life...even though no one calls this an arranged marriage from all that I have read over the decades, Charles was pressured into marrying by the family and the royal family thought Diana fit the bill for them......they made a huge mistake in that as we have all seen and read.
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  #2120  
Old 06-16-2018, 01:37 AM
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Of course he was in love with Camilla, and probably, it would have been better if he and she could have married in their 20s. But she wasn't interested in public life, she wasn't acceptable as a Princess,then,and at the time she preferred Andrew.
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