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  #2021  
Old 11-23-2017, 02:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Kitty1224 View Post
I think it will happen again it’s inevitable but in a different way. Still Diana to this day and when she was alive was/is a phenomenon. I agree with what you said about the the reason why she is the perfect princess image. But it’s obvious Diana and Grace are modern princesses that the world still loves. All in all I agree with your opinion!
Somehow, Kitty, I don't think we are on the same page. Just a hunch.

'Phenomeons' happen all the time in the world of celebrity (be the source royalty or business or the arts or politics). Phenomenon is a descriptive term, not a value judgement. Phenomenons can be for the good, or for the ill. In Diana's case, my view is she is a cautionary tale, and hopefully nothing like that will be allowed to take place again, for all our sakes.

I was trying to interpret the phrase you are using: 'perfect princess image'. I am assuming you think Diana (and Grace) are the perfect images of a princess because they were pretty and stylish. That's superficial in the extreme and would not be my criteria for 'perfection'. Grace had maturity on her side, Diana did not, even when she was a mature woman. I never experienced Diana as classy. Grace was classy.

I wouldn't call Diana a modern princess, as in avant garde. Diana was unique in the way she 'spilled her guts' everywhere (to put it inelegantly). Not sure that made her beloved as more a disgrace than anything 'noble'. Grace was a savvy woman who had handled her own career and who understood her role as a princess representing her adopted country. As a result she had the maturity and insight needed to deal with her princess status with discretion and class. Diana did neither (imo).

If anything, I think Diana is pitied. I do agree that Grace is likely generally respected.
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  #2022  
Old 11-23-2017, 02:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
Yes, because there is still enough people over the age of 30 who buy magazines and watch televisions. Probably more people over the age of 40 who pay for cable and buy paper magazines. The younger population is moving towards more online which doesn't have the same financial draw.

Just as few people under the age of 40 care who Elvis or Marolyn Monroe are (other then cool art work to hang on a wall), same is happening with Diana. As the people who remember her get older, and eventually die off, any interest in her being some famous celebrity will die off as well.

She will one day simply be the mother of King William V.
Disagree. You underestimate Diana.
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  #2023  
Old 11-23-2017, 03:06 AM
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Disagree. You underestimate Diana.
The Diana story is pretty harrowing, filled with venal motives, petty payback and aggressive drama. If anything, I don't think anyone reading her story can underestimate exactly how distressed she was. She is clearly important to those who are her 'adherents' (fans). They see the gloss, but history will see the tattered life thrown to pieces against the wall. I think that is the story that will enthrall the future. Not her gloss. Her gloss will be a footnote. JMO.

P.S. So yes, she will be well-known far into the future because of her spectacular meteoric rise and crash-and-burn. Iconic. For sure. In that way Diana will be a legend.
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  #2024  
Old 11-23-2017, 03:26 AM
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The trouble is IMO that those who dislike Diana and dismiss her see her as all faults, weaknesses and terrible flaws and those around her, who played a vital role in her story, as absolutely flaw-less. No faults are ever attributed to them.

As for how much Diana will be remembered in the future decades, who knows? Eventually every single person is forgotten. Who today remembers Sarah Bernhardt, one of the most spectacular actresses of the 19th century, Alexandra, one of the most admired Princesses of Wales for most of second half of that century, while memories are fading of Marilyn Monroe, James Dean, Edison, Logie Baird and thousands of other once famous people.

Is Charles going to be remembered in 100 years time, will Camilla, or will they fade, as George V and VI have? People do linger however in the memories of their children and when (if) William V comes to the throne in another 20 years or so, Diana will still be among his dearest memories and he may well speak of her, just as King George VII in his turn may choose to impart how much his father missed his mother and how he would talk about her sometimes. She may well be kept in the public memory in that way. And she's not forgotten yet!
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  #2025  
Old 11-23-2017, 03:51 AM
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The trouble is IMO that those who dislike Diana and dismiss her see her as all faults, weaknesses and terrible flaws
I am not disliking Diana, I am critiquing her. I have not dismissed her. In fact, I am agreeing with Kitty that she will indeed be remembered by history. She will not be a cypher. She had a huge impact on the BRF and the British public and it will be noted. In fact, part of William's historical descriptive as King will likely be the condition of his parents' marriage in the public eye and the influence of Diana in his upbringing and by her untimely death. There will be no getting away from the legacy of Diana's life as she lived it.

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and those around her, who played a vital role in her story, as absolutely flaw-less. No faults are ever attributed to them.
As for this I know naught of what you are talking about. You are making a broad statement alleging something I have never engaged in the post you are addressing, so I have no choice but to read it as ott self-referencing and leave it at that.

It seemed important to respond because it is precisely these kinds of posts awash with currents of accusation and innuendo that bleed into fruitless, aimless argumentative posts. Hopefully, the discourse can stay on track without undermining individual posters (ex: me). JMO.
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  #2026  
Old 11-23-2017, 03:58 AM
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I have thought a few times why her sons have taken on the subject of mental health......it deals with *feelings* of which were not spoken of in that time period of history. No, the attitude was just be quiet and go about yr duty, feelings did not count. Heck I understand that for I grew up in that type of environment and it wrecked havoc in my life for I did not understand *feelings* either. Well fast forward and lots of therapy set me straight and made me aware of life in general......sadly Diana lost her life way to young and never got that chance that many of us seniors have done.

I would bet my last turkey drumstick that that both boys understand more about their mother today then ever before and this subject just might be something in the back of their minds that will not only help others but comes from the lack of therapy that their mother did not receive or accept.

It is like if you have a broken leg, go to the hospital and doctors and get it fixed, well the same with *feelings*, they are a huge part of us each day as we do and make all choices in life with feelings, if the mind does not stop to rest and think and goes in circles on a constant basis........time to find a doc that deals in mental health. After all not all of us come from *perfect families that love us*, so we need to fix the emotional side of our soul to make life better for each of us. And during Diana's time period mental health was a subject that was forbidden to be talked about........people were ashamed to admit that they needed help.....good grief there is no such thing as mental health....fast forward and it is a huge illness of the world today. Times certainly have changed.

I am sorry if I sound like I am lecturing here, I just try to make it plain and simple to understand.

I have learned about 2nd chances in life and unfortunately Diana never got that chance. Yet her sons will do wonders in this world all because of the mental health issue that they have taken on and that will be a part of her legacy by them.
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  #2027  
Old 11-23-2017, 07:11 AM
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Imo indeed Diana's legacy will be "Sissi-fied" where the image of the person becomes a persona in itself, not necessarily related to the actual person.
I'm not saying with Diana the proces is as complete as with Sissi (empress Elisabeth of Austria) yet, because there are still a lot of people who knew the actual person, but i do see her image going that way in the distant future.
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  #2028  
Old 11-23-2017, 07:38 AM
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It could but it depends on whether people read biographies in fifty years or more, or just rely on documentaries and newspaper articles about Diana and the events of the 1980s and 90s. As far as Sissi is concerned for instance a couple of very romanticised films, TV series, of the past few decades seem to have set the Empress's image in a certain direction and fictionalised it if you will. While biographies of her, or the ones I've read anyway, tend to be more rounded.
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  #2029  
Old 11-23-2017, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
It could but it depends on whether people read biographies in fifty years or more, or just rely on documentaries and newspaper articles about Diana and the events of the 1980s and 90s. As far as Sissi is concerned for instance a couple of very romanticised films, TV series, of the past few decades seem to have set the Empress's image in a certain direction and fictionalised it if you will. While biographies of her, or the ones I've read anyway, tend to be more rounded.
Agreed, but that kind of movies usually reach a much larger audience than a well-researched biography...

It is not necessarily be a bad thing, i mean how many people would know about Empress Elisabeth if not for those movies; but it's just not the real person
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  #2030  
Old 11-23-2017, 07:55 AM
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Looking for silly Ascot hats one summer night years ago, I found this community and even back then, there were scads of threads and discussions dealing with aspects of Diana. Her life, her loves, her foibles and her successes. I read the threads, I read the books, I learned about the ins and outs of all things pertaining to the BRF and most importantly, because of Diana's wish to air her hurts and her grievances and her anger in public, came to know far more about her life in private than I think we had the right to know. The more I read and learned about Diana's life, the more I realized that I could identify with her in ways as both of us went through years in a broken marriage. Some of the things she did, I understood why she did them.

Princess, to me, became nothing more than a title of status and position (along with really getting interested in how British titles and styles work). I think what happened is that Diana stepped off the front of the glossy magazine covers and out of the documentaries on the screen and became a breathing, real true to life human being for me. Not someone on a pedestal or a rock star poster in a teenager's bedroom but a woman who faced a lot of ups and downs in her life and like the rest of us, learned as we go along that sometimes things don't go the way we want them to and that there is no guarantee of a "happily ever after" in life.

As time passes, there will be other "superstars", in their own way, that will grab and hold the public's attention and the life and times of Diana, Princess of Wales will fade into memory. The Diana effect though will continue on through her sons and her grandchildren. We see Diana in William's smile. We see Diana in action when Harry gets down to eye level with a older lady sitting in a wheelchair. We see her boys making choices for their life partners based solely on love rather than checking off the "suitable for a princess" boxes. Diana wrought changes. Some for the good and some that were not so good.

No matter how you slice it, the loaf of bread that was Diana reveals so much to her as each slice is examined. If one only looks at the tiara, they're missing a whole lot of who this person named Diana really was.
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  #2031  
Old 11-23-2017, 09:48 AM
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I find Diana to be a very interesting person. Probably because of journalistic training, I've been able to look at her objectively. The good, the bad, the ups and downs and the ins and outs of her lifetime.

As I've said, I've found things about Diana that I've identified with as some things in her life were parallel in my life. I do not look at Diana with starry eyes as a "fairy tale" princess as I outgrew fairy tales a very long time ago and Diana's life was anything but a fairy tale.

Can I ask references you refer to when stating an opinion of Diana? Tabloids and glossy magazines and the "Princess Diana" craze really do not give a balanced story about her lifetime. There is so much to delve into in regards to the short time she was on the world stage hence so many different threads here in reference to Diana. Its a quest well worth the time and the energies. I think she'll come alive for you as a person as much as she did for me if you take the time.

We do try and stay in reality here and the discussions need to be based in reality with credible sources to back up our opinions. I wish you well on your journey to discover more and more about Diana and the human being that she was. The first step is to put the "fairy tale princess" idea to rest.
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  #2032  
Old 11-23-2017, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
Imo indeed Diana's legacy will be "Sissi-fied" where the image of the person becomes a persona in itself, not necessarily related to the actual person.
I'm not saying with Diana the proces is as complete as with Sissi (empress Elisabeth of Austria) yet, because there are still a lot of people who knew the actual person, but i do see her image going that way in the distant future.
Could someone describe the situation with the Empress Elisabeth so that the reference can be understood within the thread for those not acquainted with Empress Elisabeth (like me). (P.S. I don't think this is off-topic as the Empress Elisabeth is being referenced to illuminate a perspective regarding Diana. I am intrigued regarding 'Sissi-fied' ).

Addressed to Osipi:
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Originally Posted by Kitty1224 View Post
Diana will never fade away. It seems like you secretly do not like Diana.
But she will. You may not like that but it is happening all the time.

I am currently reading about the Queen of Romania and am amazed at the vividness of her social, political presence in her time. How many know about her? Except for a reference in some pop song from decades ago?

How many understand the references to Lord Byron, even? A must-know in my book yet many are clueless. If individuals of genuinely significant accomplishment and impact in society, and the arts, and politics, can be forgotten in a generation or two, what do you expect will happen to Diana whose main legacy (unfortunately) is scandal and drama and what-all?

There will be others like her in future, as juicy, maybe more so. More beautiful, more stylish. It's an old story. Diana is not unique except in-so-far as she hitched herself to a (still reigning) royal house, which got her oodles more traction in the end. In that, the story is unique in this way: the BRF and the tabloids. A modern twist on the broad sheets. JMO.
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  #2033  
Old 11-23-2017, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Nimue View Post
Could someone describe the situation with the Empress Elisabeth so that the reference can be understood within the thread for those not acquainted with Empress Elisabeth (like me). (P.S. I don't think this is off-topic as the Empress Elisabeth is being referenced to illuminate a perspective regarding Diana. I am intrigued regarding 'Sissi-fied' ).

Addressed to Osipi:

But she will. You may not like that but it is happening all the time.

I am currently reading about the Queen of Romania and am amazed at the vividness of her social, political presence in her time. How many know about her? Except for a reference in some pop song from decades ago?

How many understand the references to Lord Byron, even? A must-know in my book yet many are clueless. If individuals of genuinely significant accomplishment and impact in society, and the arts, and politics, can be forgotten in a generation or two, what do you expect will happen to Diana whose main legacy (unfortunately) is scandal and drama and what-all?

There will be others like her in future, as juicy, maybe more so. More beautiful, more stylish. It's an old story. Diana is not unique except in-so-far as she hitched herself to a (still reigning) royal house, which got her oodles more traction in the end. In that, the story is unique in this way: the BRF and the tabloids. A modern twist on the broad sheets. JMO.
20 years after her death she is still remember. Monroe, Elvis, MJ are still remembered. Diana made a huge impact and had a huge legacy.
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  #2034  
Old 11-23-2017, 04:07 PM
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20 years after her death she is still remember. Monroe, Elvis, MJ are still remembered.
Name 5 pop icons from the 1920's. It's not for nothing that your examples are celebrity artists of accomplishment in their time. Diana has no 'body of work' as equivalent. Her 'celebrity' is rooted in scandal (and the fact that she married into royalty), not a 'body of work'. Had Diana behaved as she did married to a CEO, she'd be a cypher.

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Diana made a huge impact
Certainly 'locally'. Certainly on Charles, on the BRF by extension and British public, and in her time. But it goes no further.

However, it may go further if the British monarchy does not survive past Charles. If that occurs historians may reasonably posit that the downfall of the British monarchy can be traced back to the the unraveling initiated by the scandals of the Diana era. Might, and that would then be a legitimate 'huge impact'.

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and had a huge legacy.
What's the 'huge legacy'? I personally think that the after-effect of Diana (and Sarah) has meant that the BRF has reverted back to being insular and protective of it's privacy as in 1900. In the late 1960's, into the 1970's and 1980's the Queen and Charles were opening the monarchy up to the public. As a result of Diana, that got ended for good.
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  #2035  
Old 11-23-2017, 04:10 PM
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20 years after her death she is still remember. Monroe, Elvis, MJ are still remembered. Diana made a huge impact and had a huge legacy.
To be honest, Monroe, Elvis and Jackson aren't on my radar whatsoever. I have no interest in them and never will.

Diana's legacy actually is no bigger or better than a lot of previous members of the British royal family. Remember too that a lot of the impact that Diana did make was a very negative one.

In your perspective she's made a huge impact and that's good that you can think that way just as you think Jackson made a huge impact. I don't see it but that's my own perspective. It'd be a weird world if we all thought alike wouldn't it?

Can you please provide some examples and sources to where you get this "huge legacy" from? Inquiring minds need to know.

@Lady Nimue: Come to think of it, I can't even name some pop stars from the 1920s. I'm sure I'd recognize some names if I heard them but I'm stumped to name one from memory here.
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  #2036  
Old 11-23-2017, 04:17 PM
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Diana's legacy actually is no bigger or better than a lot of previous members of the British royal family. Remember too that a lot of the impact that Diana did make was a very negative one.
Sadly true. It's a pretty messy story. She wore some great clothes and took some great pictures but many people have done that. How many younger posters recall that Princess Margaret was very much the Diana of her day? I hadn't. I had to be shown that. It had to be pointed out. I had to go into some reading material to get the drift of her charisma and impact in her time. It will be the same with Diana methinks.
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  #2037  
Old 11-23-2017, 04:34 PM
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While we're at it about extraordinary women that have affected the British monarchy and the aristocracy, there was one that wove a tale of a life that was very similar to Diana's.

From The NY Times:

Diana, Princess of Wales, was not the first member of the aristocratic Spencer family to win the heart of her country but not her husband. In 1774 her ancestor Lady Georgiana Spencer married the Duke of Devonshire, who had been considered the most eligible bachelor in England.

‘The Duchess’ Film: Lady Georgiana Spencer’s Life Parallels Diana’s - The New York Times

In recent times, Georgiana's life was made into a movie starring Keira Knightley as Georgiana and I think it did pretty well.

So, the more we look into it, the more we see that Diana most certainly wasn't unique nor was really that much different than many in the aristocratic circle. If she had not married The Prince of Wales, no one probably would ever have really heard of her.

Think I'll dig out my copy of the movie and watch it again.
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  #2038  
Old 11-23-2017, 07:11 PM
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A cloud of intense gossamer mist has enveloped the Sissi legend, and many viewers (especially females) fell in love with the fictional Elizabeth through the mini series and films. Only reading a few good biographies would create a different impression now.

With reference to the observations we made regarding Sissi here in the Diana thread: there are as many differences as there are similarities in the Diana/Empress Elizabeth trajectories, among other things, very different times and places, and different marriages, so too long a bow can't be drawn with regard to Diana as future legend.
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  #2039  
Old 11-23-2017, 08:35 PM
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To be sure, Diana was the superstar of her time.

Will Diana endure? Who knows, and if she does what will her image be? A couple of people who've popped up in my mind are Anne Boleyn and Edward VIII / Duke of Windsor.

Back to the superstar thing, to me it is indisputable that Diana was a superstar, and the extensive coverage of the 20th anniversary of her death indicates that she has achieved the kind of cultural eminence that Marilyn Monroe has.

Now here's the rub, I don't see that having a superstar like Diana boosted the institution of the monarchy. If I were the courtier tasked with setting the course for the BRF, having another Diana in the midst would not be on my radar.

P.S.
Just to be clear I am not in any way overlooking or diminishing Diana's good works and the contributions she made to the BRF.
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  #2040  
Old 11-23-2017, 09:15 PM
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Diana will survive all because of her 2 wonderful boys who will make sure she is not forgotten like a blimp of time. Regardless of what is written about her, it comes from all different sources and some good and some not so good, that is how everything in history goes down. It is whom you believe in and what they write that makes the difference in how she is viewed.
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