Charles and Diana

[Nico]

I'm not a millennial. I was born and brought up in Britain, was an adult when Charles and Diana were dating and I can remember the 1970s and 80s perfectly, as well as the class system pertaining to those times.

Even though the 1970s and 1980s were so long ago there were plenty of aristocrats and royals from both the BRF and other royal Houses who were not set in their ways like concrete and found ways to accommodate their new spouses' friends, interests and hobbies into their own lifestyles.

Maybe in the other royal houses but in the British Royal Family surely not, or at least not for the Senior royals.

 

[Denville]

I might agree with your point except I think it was clear that Charles didn't intentionally marry someone who didn't share his interests. He honestly thought that Diana enjoyed the country lifestyle. In fact, they went fishing on one of their first dates. Diana seemed happy to spent time with his friends and doing things he liked. He envisioned the two of them being happy doing these things together. If he had known that Diana didn't like polo and his other interests, he never would have gotten involved with her. It would have been a deal breaker - and Diana knew it.

The problem was Diana was not honest with him - mainly because she wasn't honest with herself. i understand that she was 19 years old, but she was an adult. She knew what he wanted, but he didn't know what she wanted.

I do acknowledge though, that Charles should not have gotten involved with a 19 year old. Unfortunately, he was not strong enough to accept the hit to his reputation by breaking it off when he started having doubts.

he had to get involved with a younger woman because he had to find a girl who was a virgin. But I agree that Charles did think that Diana shared his interests. She went to watch him fishing and shooting. She didn't ride but she almost certainly didn't give any indication that she found hunting or blood sports boring.. although she problably did. She watched him playing polo.. later she never went again once they had split up. She went out on country hikes and stalking and gave a performance of enjoying the country life and getting on with his friends. I don't think that chalres would have completely dropped her abruptly, if he had found out that she didn't enjoy most of these activities but I think he certainly found it agreeable that she did seem to enjoy them. He had had other girls who had not enjoyed the country and Balmoral routine and the relationships had fizzled out. So if Diana had been clearly bored by spending time in the country, he might not have gone on dating her. I think he genuinely believed that she was having fun and that she was a country lover.. and he probably believed that she might not be a big reader but she wasn't stupid and would come to enjoy his mental interests, and that she was an outdoorsy girl who enjoyed the country and they would be able to enjoy it together when they were married.
Diana problably didn't consciously set out to deceive him but she did put on a performance of liking his way of life, sharing his interests and getting on with his friends.

 

[Denville]

Maybe in the other royal houses but in the British Royal Family surely not, or at least not for the Senior royals.

No. I don't know about other royal houses much but certainly in the 1980s the BRF was bound by tradition.. and a way of life that was beginning to seem outdated but still flourished. More of the RF "worked" as royals and they led a privileged but rigid life. People marrying in had to conform, to a great degree. Men marrying in, might manage to hold onto their careers though not always. Philip had to give up the Navy.. but a wife was expected to be a royal performer, share the holdiays with the RF, be seen at Chirstmas going to church, etc.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

he had to get involved with a younger woman because he had to find a girl who was a virgin. But I agree that Charles did think that Diana shared his interests. She went to watch him fishing and shooting. She didn't ride but she almost certainly didn't give any indication that she found hunting or blood sports boring.. although she problably did. She watched him playing polo.. later she never went again once they had split up. She went out on country hikes and stalking and gave a performance of enjoying the country life and getting on with his friends. I don't think that chalres would have completely dropped her abruptly, if he had found out that she didn't enjoy most of these activities but I think he certainly found it agreeable that she did seem to enjoy them and he probably believed that she might not be a big reader but she wasn't stupid and would come to enjoy his mental interests, and that she was an outdoorsy girl who enjoyed the country and they would be able to enjoy it together when they were married.
Dian problably didn't consciously set out to deceive him but she did put on a performance of liking his way of life, sharing his interests and getting on with his friends.

I am sure there was some pressure on Charles to marry a virgin, but it has been reported that he proposed to at least one woman who had sexual experience. Moreover, I think some people tend to forget that the "sexual revolution"only started in the mid-sixties with college aged kids; it actually wasn't that unusual for 19 year olds to be inexperienced in the early 80s. I actually did some research, and it seems as though as many as a third of 19 year old girls were not sexually active in the early 80's (at least in the U.S.). https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK219217/. Even if Charles had been convinced he had to marry a virgin, there would have been other women who met that criteria.

I think Charles was very honest about the type of woman he wanted to marry and Diana did her best, but she couldn't keep it up.

 

[Sandy345]

Diana I think was acting like a normal young lady wanting to get to know her boyfriend. She wanted to get to know him and spend time with him. She would go to Balmoral to get to know him and his family better. It was well known that Diana did not ride since she fell of a horse and hurt herself when she was younger. She did like long walks and exercise and only watched Charles fish and did have a try at fishing. Diana went to all of Charles polo matches even when she was close to giving birth to William. She only stopped after the separation. I don't think Charles was honest with Diana he presented Camilla as his married friend, and he was friends with the husband as well. There were two little children then and DIana thought at first Camilla was "just a friend" and wanted to help her. I think Charles should have been honest I do think Charles wanted it all and he had been turned down by two women pre DIana and Diana was besotted with him so he went ahead with the marriage and as he later admitted knowing he did not love his bride to be. Diana wanted a home and a happy marriage. And it should be remembered DIana was in the early stages of an uncomfortable pregnancy with William when she went to Balmoral after the wedding. She appeared more relaxed and happy with Charles when they later went to the Caribbean together early in 1982.I don't think Charles really cared that DIana did not like hunting, he wanted her as the mother of his heirs and to accompany him on tours. And some photos appeared in 1982 where Diana was seen going stalking with Charles on a hunting trip. So she did try.

 

[Denville]

I am sure there was some pressure on Charles to marry a virgin, but it has been reported that he proposed to at least one woman who had sexual experience. Moreover, I think some people tend to forget that the "sexual revolution"only started in the mid-sixties with college aged kids; it actually wasn't that unusual for 19 year olds to be inexperienced in the early 80s. I actually did some research, and it seems as though as many as a third of 19 year old girls were not sexually active in the early 80's (at least in the U.S.). https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK219217/. Even if Charles had been convinced he had to marry a virgin, there would have been other women who met that criteria.

I think Charles was very honest about the type of woman he wanted to marry and Diana did her best, but she couldn't keep it up.

Who was ths woman he proposed to?
As far as I know the only women he proposed to, were Camilla, Diana and Amanda Knatchbull.. who turned him down
Around the time he met Diana, he was under pressure to get married. he was over 30, the press were looking to see a pretty princess, the RF probalby also felt it was time fo him to settle down...and Charlres probably thought that if he were too fussy, he would have to wait another couple fo years before he found a wife and the pressure would increase.
Diana was from the right class, she was a Protestant, she was a virgin and she was from a family that knew the RF and would so He thought fit in OK with his family and with the role of Princess. She was also attractive, sweet natured, eager to marry young, not a career girl or a party girl.
Diana knew he would like a girl who shared his interests, so she gave a performance of enjoying all the things that he liked and getting on well with his friends. But when she was married, her own health problems made her moody and difficult and she began to show signs that she didn't like all the things that she had seemed to be Ok with.

 

[Sandy345]

Amanda Knatchbull. I read some biographies of Charles and after Mountbatten died he reportedly asked Amanda to marry him (she is Mountbatten's granddaughter). Anna Wallace broke up with Charles after he danced the night away with Camilla. CHarles reportedly wanted her back. I don't think Diana "gave a performance." The world knew that she did not ride even back then, she fell off a horse and was injured. She also was not a huntress. But she was falling in love with Charles and wanted to be with him. Diana's health problems were caused by stress--she had bulimia nervosa and a few years later she got help from Dr. Lipsedge who had also treated her sister Sarah. She also was pregnant with WIlliam and had bad morning sickness. She was very uncomfortable. Had she been feeling better she probably would have gone outdoors more. I think she should be cut some slack here. She did get on well with his friends but later was justifiably suspicious of Camilla. Diana went to Balmoral until the separation. She went to all the polo matches. So she did support her husband in his interests. She could not play polo like Charles could and Charles knew she did not like shooting animals but she would be at Balmoral with the family. As I said there were photos of her in 1982 going stalking with Charles though she apparently did not shoot anything. Charles was the one who was deceptive and in a much more serious way. He knew he did not love DIana (he confessed this to his biographer in1994) but married her anyway. Diana wrote that she loved him.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

Who was ths woman he proposed to?

Sandy345 is correct, I was referring to Amanda Knatchbull.

To answer Sandy345's point, I did not mean to imply that Diana never tried - she certainly did. My posts were a response to the argument that Charles was obliged to take up Diana's hobbies and interests. Actually, I think he did try and do things she enjoyed - he accompanied her to the ballet and they went on beach vacations. However, Charles wanted a country girl and thought he found one. I agree that Charles shares the blame for the breakdown of the marriage, but a big part of the problem was the lack of shared interests - and I think that was mainly Diana's fault

 

[Purrs]

IMHO the biggest reason why Charles and Diana were unhappy was a mismatch of personalities. (Although the age gap and lack of shared interests contributed.)

Both were insecure, sensitive and had unhappiness in their childhoods. Both needed a supportive spouse to lean on but neither was able to provide that for each other. IMHO they made each other worse.

I do think Charles has found that with Camilla who is more easy going and a much better match. (I've warmed to Camilla over the years as Charles is much happier and become much more relaxed.) Sadly Diana never found that although I do think Dr. Khan was the nicest man with whom she had a relationship.

 

[Denville]

Sandy345 is correct, I was referring to Amanda Knatchbull.

To answer Sandy345's point, I did not mean to imply that Diana never tried - she certainly did. My posts were a response to the argument that Charles was obliged to take up Diana's hobbies and interests. Actually, I think he did try and do things she enjoyed - he accompanied her to the ballet and they went on beach vacations. However, Charles wanted a country girl and thought he found one. I agree that Charles shares the blame for the breakdown of the marriage, but a big part of the problem was the lack of shared interests - and I think that was mainly Diana's fault

to the best of my knowledge Amanda had no big romantic invovlements.. so she was sutiable as a virgin bride just as Diana was.
I think that Charles did try to enjoy some of the things that Diana did.. but he wasn't into ballet or dancing or pop music. Im sure he thought that they had quite a bit in common, and there was no need for him to break out his ballet shoes.. but Diana's "liking for country life" didn't last very long. She got depressed and ill and she could no longer persuade herself that she was really a country girl.

 

[Sandy345]

Diana did go in for country life at Balmoral until the separation. She enjoyed the time with her sons there. Diana liked long walks in the country but not the hunting. There are photographs of Diana going on these country walks and it is documented. I don't think it was mostly Diana's fault. She did not refuse to go to Balmoral with the family until she and Charles were separated. Charles and Diana both liked opera--she was good friends with Pavarotti who dedicated a song to the Princess at a concert. Charles also has been seen with pop stars at social events before and after his marriage to Diana. The place Diana was said not to like was Highgrove since it was in close proximity to the Parker Bowles home.

Amanda may have married out of "duty" had her grandfather been still alive to persuade her. I don't think she was in love with Charles.

 

[Pranter]

But that was exactly what anyone expected. A Princess of Wales loving walking the New Forest or the Lake District. But in later years we saw a Diana developing into another stratosphere with the Gianni Versaces, the Elton Johns, the George Michaels, she became a stae bigger than any star herself and she enjoyed it until the loss of her royal status, when she became a vulnerable prey for the tabloids.

We see with Catherine, who seems not prone for stardom at all, that it could have been different, was Diana more the traditional tweed-wearing, waxed coat, wellies type of spouse.

She did love walking in the country. That was not at all the issue. I also think if she had been happy, if she and Charles could of connected on common interests (which they really did not have) likely she would of never turned to other pursuits as she did later on.

Catherine doesn't ride, doesn't fish nor does she share Williams's like for motorcycles and that type of thing. There really are no comparisons that need to be made between them.


LaRae

 

[Sandy345]

I think if Charles had fully moved on from Camilla he and DIana could have made a go of it. It did not help matters that Highgrove was only a short distance from Bolehyde. CHarles had already acquired Highgrove before he got engaged to Diana. So it was not like Diana had any choice in their living arrangements. Kate did go hunting with William and picked up dead birds but I don't notice her doing it much now. Couples can be happy without sharing all the same interests. It would make the marriage rather dull in my opinion if they did. I do think Diana and Charles both had a strong interest in charity work. Also Diana and Charles were both accomplished skiiers and would go each year on ski trips.

 

[Curryong]

I do not believe that not being a traditional (whatever that may mean) wellie- wearing countrywoman when by nature she was not really one should be held against Diana. People are who they are. Yes, Diana enjoyed country walks at times but she also enjoyed urban settings. And in the same context Charles is not being criticised for disliking town life, is he?

There were several basic things IMO that told against a successful Charles/Diana union. One was that there were no common interests or hobbies. Yes, Diana, like thousands of young people in love for the first time, threw herself into trying to like her fiance's way of life. That she really did not would have become glaringly obvious if these two had dated solidly for more than a year.

There was an age gap between them that was a chasm. Couples with more than ten years difference in age usually meet in the middle, with the younger partner gifted with great maturity and the older one being young at heart and in attitudes. That was certainly not the case here.

They were both needy people because of their backgrounds/childhoods, who couldn't give each other what was desparately needed.

Instead of realising that he was not in love with Diana but was bound to another by strong bonds of devotion and therefore should not marry, Charles buckled under the pressure and proposed, just as he had done with Amanda Knatchbull. If he had stood firm and not done so, a lot of future misery for two people might have been avoided. Unlike Amanda, who had known him all her life, Diana accepted and thereby condemned herself to years of unhappiness.

Diana, already damaged by her mother leaving her when she was very young, had abandonment issues. This was exacerbated after her engagement by strong suspicions (which proved correct) that Charles was not head over heels for her (something everyone deserves from their fiance) but loved another woman all along. That is one heck of a lot for a nineteen year old to cope with.

I think if we all look back to ourselves at that age we would realise that people of nineteen are rarely ready to settle down for life and certainly not to a person whose romantic feelings dont match ours.

All in all, this was an ill-starred marriage and would have benefited greatly by more caution and clear sightedness from BOTH partners at the beginning of the relationship. IMO especially from the older, supposedly more mature one.

 

[Sandy345]

It was Charles responsibility to back out if he knew he did not love DIana. He probably saw she was besotted with him and if he were lukewarm about her maybe he should have moved on. She was only 19 years old he was 32 and had a lot more experience lots of life experience and traveling. Charles did little to learn about his younger girlfriend IMO. He checked off tick boxes like young, aristo, no past and so on. He should have spent more time seeing what her interests were and learn about her more. He assumed she'd have to get interested in what he liked IMO. It goes both ways.He did hand her philosophy books to read on their honeymoon. He may have taken too much for granted that she would be automatically interested in Van Der Post on the honeymoon.

 

[Pranter]

It has been said Charles was urged to marry Diana by well meaning friends (who thought her fun/jolly), thinking that she being so young she could be more easily molded to the role of the wife of the PoW.


LaRae

 

[Curryong]

Yes, but they didn't know Diana very well either, did they? If Charles barely knew Diana before they became engaged (and he didn't) how much less did these friends know of her?
And sometimes royals are told by intimates something that either suits their own agenda or that they believe the Royal wants to hear anyway.

 

[Lilyflo]

Re: some of the posts above. My opinion is that no matter what efforts Charles may have made to please Diana, the marriage was doomed to failure because not only did he not love Diana, he was deeply in love with Camilla. If your husband is profoundly attached to another woman, you'll never experience the security of being truly loved and that's what Diana needed more than anything in the world. Charles could never provide that for Diana & consequently, the marriage was a huge mistake for both of them.

 

[Nico]

Again a lot of "if", "he could have", "she should have" etc, etc ...
The fact is we don't really now what happened , i presume we never will as a marriage fallout is a very intimate thing.
We have just small pieces, often some biased abstracts given at the moment of the separation or the divorce by some really angry people fighting against each other. Not the best material for our pseudo historians and /or psychologists in their endless quest to find THE culprit in this sad affair.

By experience i know the "Charles and Diana" topic is hopeless, as both camps are firmly sticked to their positions. With time and to try to remain a bit civilized a ceasefire was agreed around the "Both were to blame", wich is probably true, like many other divorces. From time to time a member or two try to stir the pot with a "Both were to blame, but mostly him/her". I don't think it makes a big difference really, except maybe for the members in question.

What's done is done, for better or worse. And surely we were not in Charles's or Diana's head in 1980.

 

[Denville]

It has been said Charles was urged to marry Diana by well meaning friends (who thought her fun/jolly), thinking that she being so young she could be more easily molded to the role of the wife of the PoW.


LaRae

Actually by what I can remember, some of his friends told him they weren't sure she was the right one for him.. and he ignored this advice.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

to the best of my knowledge Amanda had no big romantic invovlements.. so she was sutiable as a virgin bride just as Diana was.

Your are probably correct - I made an assumption based on her education and age (she was 23 or 24). My point though is that there were other "suitable" brides that would have been a better fit of personalities. I don't think that Diana was the only person available to him.

With respect to the other recent posts, which are quite interesting, I am not implying that Charles was innocent in the breakup. They didn't really know each other and he never should have proposed and his affair with Camilla was inexcusable.

At the same time, I don't think Diana was in love with Charles - she was in love with her image of the Prince of Wales. Her extramarital affairs were also inexcusable.

Charles should have had the backbone to break off the engagement as it became apparent that the marriage was not going to work. He was afraid to do so because he feared public backlash - but that was his own fault: he choose to date a 19 year woman. When the problems arose, he simply referred Diana to professional help, without making a real effort to understand her needs. Professional counseling would have helped them both in the early years.

Both Charles and Diana should have been strong enough to stand up to the Queen and even the country and divorced when their marriage actually broke down. The problems that arose because they didn't divorce were perfectly foreseeable. The fallout not only impacted them but their children.

 

[TLLK]

IMHO the biggest reason why Charles and Diana were unhappy was a mismatch of personalities. (Although the age gap and lack of shared interests contributed.)

Both were insecure, sensitive and had unhappiness in their childhoods. Both needed a supportive spouse to lean on but neither was able to provide that for each other. IMHO they made each other worse.

I do think Charles has found that with Camilla who is more easy going and a much better match. (I've warmed to Camilla over the years as Charles is much happier and become much more relaxed.) Sadly Diana never found that although I do think Dr. Khan was the nicest man with whom she had a relationship.

Good points Purrs. Charles and Diana had very different interests and tastes. Also Charles has always reminded me of an "old soul" while Diana was a more youthful personality IMHO.

 

[QueenMathilde]

Well up until a few years ago I would have said that Diana saved the royal family by making them more popular and relatable and giving him two popular sons. But with what has been going on with Harry she might just have been the downfall of the royal family after all.

 

[Denville]

Well up until a few years ago I would have said that Diana saved the royal family by making them more popular and relatable and giving him two popular sons. But with what has been going on with Harry she might just have been the downfall of the royal family after all.

And she nearly destroyed the RF by her publicising her unhappy marriage and continuing a war with Charles in the press. I think that the RF came to feel that whatever her good points, she did a lot of damage and though they did not like the idea at the time of a divorce, it was the best thng. She did boost the RF's popularity for a time but she undid a lot of that in the latter years of her marriage.
But Im not sure if you are blaming her for Harry's volatility.

 

[Denville]

Your are probably correct - I made an assumption based on her education and age (she was 23 or 24). My point though is that there were other "suitable" brides that would have been a better fit of personalities. I don't think that Diana was the only person available to him.

With respect to the other recent posts, which are quite interesting, I am not implying that Charles was innocent in the breakup. They didn't really know each other and he never should have proposed and his affair with Camilla was inexcusable.

At the same time, I don't think Diana was in love with Charles - she was in love with her image of the Prince of Wales. Her extramarital affairs were also inexcusable.

Charles should have had the backbone to break off the engagement as it became apparent that the marriage was not going to work. He was afraid to do so because he feared public backlash - but that was his own fault: he choose to date a 19 year woman. When the problems arose, he simply referred Diana to professional help, without making a real effort to understand her needs. Professional counseling would have helped them both in the early years.

Both Charles and Diana should have been strong enough to stand up to the Queen and even the country and divorced when their marriage actually broke down. The problems that arose because they didn't divorce were perfectly foreseeable. The fallout not only impacted them but their children.

I don't think there were many other women who were so "suitable" on paper as Diana.. (As for Amanda I don't believe she had had any other lovers and if she had, I doubt if C would have proposed).
Charles ahd been dating around for many years, hadn't gotten close to marriage with any other woman..and I think he was genuinely attracted to Diana, and drawn to her....and believed that she and he had enough in common to make their marriage work, even if she was not the "one true love of his life". She was a very fascinating person and I believe that she was alluring enough to him to make him think that she was suitable, she was young and would learn what she needed to learn. She knew about the RF and court life.. and they shared interests. Unfortunately Diana didn't know that much about court life.. and she didn't share his interests.. and she was unhappily damaged by her childhood problems.
And once they were engaged, even if both of them had serious doubts, the deal was doen. There was no way they could have broken the engagement. Equally, once ther marriage broke down, they could not divorce. It took years before the queen was willing to consider a divorce, and she only did so when Diana started to question the succession, in her Bashir Interview. They were not ordinary peole who could end their marriage easily...

 

[Pranter]

As far as unhappily damaged by her childhood... equally so was Charles. He's spoken very publically about it. So one cannot blame Diana's childhood as a source of problems without also blaming his.





LaRae

 

[Sandy345]

All his friends and relatives told him they liked her except one of his Mountbatten relatives. Later after the marriage, when they were quarreling Charles told Diana that this one relative had reservations about their getting married. DIana was cold to this person from then on. But once the marriage went on the rocks, "their" friends became "his" friends and helped him find places to be with Camilla, safe houses.

I do cut Diana more slack than Charles because he was the one who had to do the proposing. And if he had any doubts he should have stopped seeing her and let her have a happy life with someone else. He admitted he did not love her when he married her. If he had told Diana this, she could have had a chance to move on. She told Morton she thought he loved her and she did love him. Charles did not have to blame others he could have manned up and spoke to Diana about how he really felt. There may have been other women who would have agreed to his terms of the marriage. and he could have found someone who did.

I don't blame Diana for her moving on. She and Charles were more or less stuck since divorce was discouraged. I don't blame her for speaking out. Charles friends were already leaking stories about her in the 1980s. Nicholas Soames went on TV to deride her. I think it was worse with Charles since Camilla was always there one way or another. It's not as if he went back to her, they were in touch and meeting at Hunts which Diana did not attend. She also had the nerve to sit in Diana's chair as hostess of Highgrove before the separation.

If CHarles had not wanted to have it all, he could have told Diana he could not continue seeing her that it would not be fair to her since he would always have Camilla in his life.

 

[Somebody]

I don't think there were many other women who were so "suitable" on paper as Diana..

Based on what criteria of suitability? Because although maybe not uncommon in the British upper-class, I would think that an age gap of 12 1/2 years when the groom to be is 32 and the bride to be is 19, wouldn't qualify as very 'suitable' on paper. I am sure there were other 'ladies' that were closer in age and also from good families...

 

[Nico]

All his friends and relatives told him they liked her except one of his Mountbatten relatives. Later after the marriage, when they were quarreling Charles told Diana that this one relative had reservations about their getting married. DIana was cold to this person from then on. But once the marriage went on the rocks, "their" friends became "his" friends and helped him find places to be with Camilla, safe houses.
.

Excuse me Sandy but are you a regular of the Daily Mail comments section ?
Your tirades seem familiar ...
Just curious.

 

[Denville]

Based on what criteria of suitability? Because although maybe not uncommon in the British upper-class, I would think that an age gap of 12 1/2 years when the groom to be is 32 and the bride to be is 19, wouldn't qualify as very 'suitable' on paper. I am sure there were other 'ladies' that were closer in age and also from good families...

An age gap would not have been considered unsuitable. And the ladies who were closer in age were more likely to have had other relationships, which would at the time disqualify them.