Charles and Diana

[Curryong]

Diana would have been an entirely different person had her background been different, wouldn't she, so who knows! A person with bags of self confidence might well have not had an eating disorder, may have passed all her exams at school, got an excellent job or even gone to university, may have had a longterm romance before, might have liked horse riding and so joined the Beaufort Hunt, so cutting off one of Charles and Camilla's main trysting locales.... All sorts of things!

I still think Diana may have been attracted to Charles and dated him. Whether one of this alternate Diana's main ambitions would have been to marry young and have lots of babies is debatable though.

I tend to think that a strong and confident young woman would have asked questions about Charles's past love life long before the engagement and wouldn't have married him after only thirteen or so dates. IMO the whole process would have been slowed down.

Diana would have wanted about a year before she made up her mind and if, during that time she felt any hint that Charles was still in thrall to another woman she would have broken it off as Anna Wallace did, though perhaps not in the same way!

It's interesting to speculate, but I do think Diana liked town life anyway, and they might not have suited each other considering Charles's devotion to the country and country pursuits.

 

[Osipi]

First off, I don't believe Charles ever said he never loved Diana and I do believe that he loved her. Perhaps he wasn't "in love" with her totally at the time of their marriage but there was enough there to make Charles think that he could grow to being in love with her and they could have a happy marriage. I also tend to believe that on Diana's side, her concept of loving someone was far from mature and a huge part of Charles' attraction for Diana was that he was The Prince of Wales. I can't believe that these two people knew each other well enough at the time of their marriage to actually be able to say that they loved each other unconditionally. Unconditional love is a big factor, I believe, in a solid, loving marriage. They both had different expectations of what a marriage should be like and both expectations mixed like oil and vinegar.

Now, to play the "what if" game that Diana grew up in a stable, loving environment with a happy, carefree childhood. I do think she would have had more self confidence in herself but her concept of a good marriage would be drastically different. That was one point about her marriage to Charles that stands out in just about every biography I've read. She saw a marriage to Charles as one where a divorce could never happen. I do believe that if Diana had been more self confident in who she was, she may have come to see things differently in the marriage. Perhaps there wouldn't have been so many perceived threats. Perhaps she could have embraced that in marriage, one also keeps and maintains one's individuality and the marriage wasn't always CharlesandDiana as one entity. She seemed to want Charles' attention to be on her and her alone hence all the demands she made that started a lot of their problems.

I also think that a lot of Diana's character traits would have remained the same regardless of her childhood but maybe some of them wouldn't have had such an impact on her adult years if had been able to address them and balance them as she grew to maturity.

 

[Pranter]

I think Charles cared for her, was fond of her but I'm not really sure he 'loved' her as most of us would expect our spouse to do. I don't think they ever got to a emotionally stable enough place for things to develop past that initial stage.


LaRae

 

[Jacknch]

The problem is, none of that happened in reality - Diana had the upbringing she had and Charles had the up-bringing he had.

I do think need to be wary of speculating "what if" scenarios because speculation will lead us nowhere, especially since we are now 37 years past the event.

 

[duchessrachel]

The problem is, none of that happened in reality - Diana had the upbringing she had and Charles had the up-bringing he had.

I do think need to be wary of speculating "what if" scenarios because speculation will lead us nowhere, especially since we are now 37 years past the event.

True, but it is interesting to wonder.

 

[Iluvbertie]

I have been wondering lately about what would have happened in Diana and Charles's marriage if the circumstances of Diana's upbringing had been different. I know we could also discuss Charles' upbringing too. However, I am looking at it from Diana's side because she said she loved him, but he said he never loved her. From that stand point, unfortunately, she would have had to do most of the giving in and made most of the sacrifice, since Charles was so set in his ways.

The actuality was that he did give up a lot in the early months of the marriage - friends, pets etc.

She wasn't asked to give up her friends or things like that by him but she demanded he give them up for her and he did.

However - very early on - he realised that no matter how much he gave up it was never going to be enough for her. She asked him on occasions to not go out on official duties but to be at home with her.

Rather than Diana giving things up because Charles was set in his ways the opposite happened until he reached the point where nothing he did was enough and so he went back to what made him happy as he couldn't make his wife happy and she certainly wasn't making him happy.

The reports from 1981 - 82 show this very clearly with his friends commenting that he was so much 'in love' with Diana that they were dropped for her and also reports of him getting rid of long-term faithful staff etc - at her insistance.

 

[Osipi]

Diana was very possessive. To her, how much a person loved her was shown by what he'd do for her, give up for her and should be there attending to her every whim. Giving something up herself never crossed her mind or thinking of what Charles needed to make him happy didn't enter into the picture much either. Everything external that took him away from her, she perceived as a threat to her marriage and did her best to eradicate them from their lives.

Marriage doesn't work that way.

 

[Curryong]

Osipi, wasn't there something on another thread that I posted a little while ago in a discussion on Diana's mental health that comprised a scale of external pressures that can cause a person to suffer mental breakdown ? Diana's points in that scale were off the chart. I remember you commented on it.

They included marriage pregnancy, change of job/occupation, change of residence, change of friendships, change in family circle, etc etc. In this context, in this thread, did the twenty year old Diana not make sacrifices in the entire changing of her way of life?

 

[Denville]

a bit of speciulation is interesting but not if it is about people being WILDLY different from what we know that they were. Diana's nature would problaby have been the same, had she had a happier upbringing. but she might have had more self discipline, and possibly while she would still have wanted to marry early, she might have achieved more pre marriage.. and been less eager to marry "well". But I think she might still have rushed into early marriage because she was an impulsive not very clever girl, who wanted to "get married and have babies".
Charles I think would still have been a shy clumsy man and still loved country life.. and been dutiful.. and he would have had the same obligation to make a suitable marriage.

Osipi, wasn't there something on another thread that I posted a little while ago in a discussion on Diana's mental health that comprised a scale of external pressures that can cause a person to suffer mental breakdown ? Diana's points in that scale were off the chart. I remember you commented on it.

They included marriage pregnancy, change of job/occupation, change of residence, change of friendships, change in family circle, etc etc. In this context, in this thread, did the twenty year old Diana not make sacrifices in the entire changing of her way of life?

but these are changes that any woman getting married into a royal family makes.. or did at that time.
And Diana wanted to make those changes. If she had been told "You'll have to give things up like easy access to your friends, or giving up your cosy flat and your nice little job with the kids.. - and have to make friends with a bunch of different people".. do you think she would have said "oh dear no." She wanted to marry Charles, she knew that it would mean various changes in her life, and she wanted those changes. She wanted to be married, she wanted a family early.. I think.. and I'm sure that while ti wasn't the first thing she thought of, she liked the idea of being a princess.
but I think that once she had become engaged to him and began to realise what the changes were like in practice she did get stressed out. and when she was at Balmoral on the honeymoon it really really hit her that this was her life form now on and there was no going back...t hat she was now part of a very formal old fashioned family who mostly enjoyed things that she didn't enjoy.. and that she was going to have to participate in their way of life in private and public from now on. That Charles wasn't as fascinating up close as he had seemed in her dreams...and that he had feelings for another woman who seemed to be very different to Di herself so that she problaby felt how can I win his deeper love?"
I think from then on although they DID Both try to adjust, ti was very difficult for them to find a half way house. Charles did cut down on seeing his friends. He tried ot get involved with "home and babies", and took her on sunshine holidays.. but he was who he was.. the RF was the way it was and they didn't see any Reason to make adjustmetns in their lifestyle in private or in public, to please a 20 year old girl.
But there were so many issues, and Diana I think while she would have insisted that she DIDNT mind giving up her old life to marry, found that in practice her new life was very stressful and the only real compensation it held apart from her children was the adoration of the press and public,.

 

[Osipi]

Osipi, wasn't there something on another thread that I posted a little while ago in a discussion on Diana's mental health that comprised a scale of external pressures that can cause a person to suffer mental breakdown ? Diana's points in that scale were off the chart. I remember you commented on it.

They included marriage pregnancy, change of job/occupation, change of residence, change of friendships, change in family circle, etc etc. In this context, in this thread, did the twenty year old Diana not make sacrifices in the entire changing of her way of life?

All those things are stressful on anyone going into a marriage. Things just become so totally different and the transition between being a "me" and becoming a part of an "us" takes work together to adapt and conform to the new way of life. The "in love" googley eyed, rapid heart beat upon seeing each other quickly can take a hike as the realities of the actual loving someone takes over. Its compromise, its trust, its sharing, its being able to get through those "I love you but I don't like you very much right now" days that always happen. Its being able to communicate and from all I've read, Charles and Diana were rarely on the same page about things.

Maybe Diana's problem was that with stars in her eyes, she envisioned that once married, she could change things and change Charles. The rigors of a very demanding public role that Charles had did play a huge part in Diana's discomfort in early marriage. She wanted him home with her. He couldn't do that although he did try as best as he could to placate her. As Iluvbertie stated a bit ago, Charles realized that it was a full time job making her happy and it got to be impossible.

I think that if these two people had just been Mr. and Mrs. Charles Windsor, the marriage would have ended by the mid 80s and they'd have gone their separate ways.

 

[Denville]

I don't think she thought that far ahead. I think she just was initially thrilled htat she had caught her prince.. that she was going to be a Princess and she already had had enough interest from the Press to feel that she would be a very popular loved Princess. She didn't realise that that public and press attention would become so stressful In due course ,.
I think she just was very instinctive and felt "Oh I've got my man, I love him and he loves me and we'll be so happy"...
and bit by bit the realities of marriage and life as a royal "hit her" and she realised that it wasn't all "happy stuff". She had to move into a palace, and perhaps at first the whole preparing fro the wedding was exciting and made her happy even fi she found Charles was busy and distant.. and she didn't see as much of her friends and began to miss the cosy Chelsea girl lifestyle..
Then the honeymoon happened and she was stressed, bulimic, realising that Charles still cared for Camilla and probably feeling that she herself wasn't able to please him as much as Cam did. And that she was rather lonely when he was reading or expecting her to join in reading books with her, rather than chatting idly or engaging in fun sports...
But I still believe that it was really the whole formal life at Balmoral that made her realise this isn't a movie.. this is real life and its one she hated and found very dificutl but that she was stuck In it..

 

[Denville]

Diana was very possessive. To her, how much a person loved her was shown by what he'd do for her, give up for her and should be there attending to her every whim. Giving something up herself never crossed her mind or thinking of what Charles needed to make him happy didn't enter into the picture much either. Everything external that took him away from her, she perceived as a threat to her marriage and did her best to eradicate them from their lives.

Marriage doesn't work that way.

That's not quite true. She did make attempts, such as trying to learn to ride when she had lost her nerve.. She tried to be a good Princess even though at times it scared her partly because she wanted ot please him. She tried to make the RF like her, albeit she did it by giving expensive thoughtful presents. Her dressmaker said that she was constantnly focussed on Charles, always wanting to look pretty and sexy to please him...

 

[Dee Anna]

sorry what post?

The one I quoted when responding!

Is there a method of holding on to the "quote" as well as the response when replying to the latter?

 

[royal rob]

Diana was very possessive. To her, how much a person loved her was shown by what he'd do for her, give up for her and should be there attending to her every whim. Giving something up herself never crossed her mind or thinking of what Charles needed to make him happy didn't enter into the picture much either. Everything external that took him away from her, she perceived as a threat to her marriage and did her best to eradicate them from their lives.



Marriage doesn't work that way.

How do you know what she said and did ? This what annoys me on the Diana threads people make comments as if they were part of the family or part of their marriage. It's the same with Will and Harry. "They don't say nice things about Charles and he has been has been a wonderful father" how do you know what sort of father he has been he might be violent verbally or distant
Nobody knows exactly what goes on behind closed door and people can be shocked when things come out.

 

[Osipi]

A lot of what happened "behind closed doors" has been chronicled in various books from Sally Bedell Smith who did extensive interviews with people that knew Diana well to Wendy Berry who was the housekeeper at Highgrove to Ken Wharfe who was her personal protection officer.

Neither one of these people take sides but try and portray an accurate picture of the relationship between Charles and Diana. I like to think that we don't take sides here either but discuss the various aspects of Charles and Diana's relationship. To me, if I've read about a certain event in several books, chances are the information is valid.

Sometimes even I think Charles is the one that had the patience of a saint with having to deal with Diana's issues. Both Charles and Diana have their good points and their not so nice points. The best way to look at it all is objectively.

 

[Queen Claude]

Speaking of Wendy Berry (former housekeeper at Highgrove), when it was announced in the winter/spring that there would be a slew of programs about Diana in the run up to the anniversary of her death, Wendy was on the top of my list of people I wanted to hear from. I guess I am not going to get my wish.

 

[duchessrachel]

The reports from 1981 - 82 show this very clearly with his friends commenting that he was so much 'in love' with Diana that they were dropped for her and also reports of him getting rid of long-term faithful staff etc - at her insistance.

I did not know that. That is what I love about this forum. I always learn something new.

Diana was very possessive. To her, how much a person loved her was shown by what he'd do for her, give up for her and should be there attending to her every whim. Giving something up herself never crossed her mind or thinking of what Charles needed to make him happy didn't enter into the picture much either. Everything external that took him away from her, she perceived as a threat to her marriage and did her best to eradicate them from their lives.

Marriage doesn't work that way.

I did not realize that. It is unfortunate that she felt that way.

 

[Osipi]

I did not realize that. It is unfortunate that she felt that way.

Its been brought up in several biographies on Diana. As you were the one that presented the "what if" scenario in which Diana grew up in a stable, loving home, this possessiveness trait that Diana exhibited stemmed directly from her experience with her parents breaking up when she was at a young age. Its the fear of abandonment and is very common. Diana craved a marriage that would last and it was easy for her to see things that normally wouldn't be threatening as something that would put a wedge in the marriage. She tried to hold on too tightly.

Sometimes the harder one tries to hold onto something, the easier it is for them to have it fly the coop away from them.

As been stated, both Charles and Diana had their positive and negative aspects to their character. We all do. People are like magnets. Sometimes character traits serve to draw people together and they stick. Sometimes the character traits are so very different that no matter how hard they try, they repel each other and never connect. Some things cannot be forced. Some people mesh together like peanut butter and jelly while some are like oil and vinegar and never go together well.

I think a lot of problems in Charles and Diana's marriage would have been easier resolved had there not been the expectation of "no divorce" or putting on a public face and fake it until you make it. It just all made the lives of two people miserable for far longer than it should have.

 

[Denville]

I did not realize that. It is unfortunate that she felt that way.

That is somewhat exaggerated. She was possessive.. but she was very young and insecure, and Charles was a loner who had already given his deepest love to another woman.

 

[royal rob]

I did not realize that. It is unfortunate that she felt that way.

Once again we don't know how she felt because we weren't part of her life. And if something is said often enough then we tend to think it's true even if it's not.

 

[Denville]

Once again we don't know how she felt because we weren't part of her life. And if something is said often enough then we tend to think it's true even if it's not.

well if that's the case then there is no point in discussing anything. There is evidence, clear enough that Diana was afraid of her loved ones deserting her... She feared her friends would leave her or sell her out to the press...
I just don't tink it was SO bad as some make out. It was a real problem but it was IMO understandable that she would feel that way when she had lost her mother at a young and vulnerable age..and never got over the loss.... or quite trusted her mother again

 

[Osipi]

Once again we don't know how she felt because we weren't part of her life. And if something is said often enough then we tend to think it's true even if it's not.

When several different people that *were* a part of her life all state the same thing, it tends to be credible.

 

[Denville]

all depends. How reliable are they? Do they have an agenda? I think it is true that Diana was clingy, and frightened of losing or being betrayed by people..

 

[Osipi]

The most credible information to me comes from those sources that have no reason to have an agenda other than to speak out about what they knew of Diana as a person from an objective point of view. They weren't her closest of friends or deemed to be "the enemy" but observers of her day to day life.

Bedell Smith = well researched biography with extensive interviews
Housekeeper = Saw the day to day interactions but did not take sides
Wharfe = A person in service as protection officer with a job to do.

None of these people had any kind of an emotional attachment to either Charles or Diana such as perhaps Paul Burrell did. That's why I don't count Burrell as ever being objective. He was too close to Diana. Same with Andrew Morton's books. Those are definitely based on how Diana saw things from her own viewpoint which is totally subjective.

To really be objective though, its best to look at things from all angles and get all viewpoints and from there, form our own opinions. My aim is never to denigrate or character assassinate either Charles or Diana and their marriage was like many other marriages around the world that just didn't work out for various reasons. Theirs just happened to be one that was very much played out in the public eye and everyone followed the good, the bad and the ugly of these two people. We enjoy discussing it here and there are authors that are out to make a quick buck or want to set the story straight or just plain want to write their memoirs about their time with Charles and Diana.

Diana is dead and nothing is going to bring her back. Charles has moved on in his life and is now happily married. The mismatched marriage of Charles and Diana still continues to be a popular subject for a lot of people and I do find it fascinating piecing together the differences of these two people and why they didn't work together. No one is a saint or a sinner but two human beings whose marital drama was very, very public because one of the parties in the marriage wanted it to be that way.

 

[Curryong]

Yes, Diana was afraid of people selling her out...and in some cases she was correct in that fear.

We rarely hear nowadays for instance of Camilla and the editor of the Sun newspaper keeping regularly in touch for nearly ten years from 1981, (one might ask why) or of people like Nicholas Soames (one of Charles's greatest friends) questioning Diana's sanity to the Press.

Or for that matter, Emillie van Cutsem, whom Diana thought of as a second mother when she was a young bride, being only one of several who offered their homes to Charles and his mistress for their liaisons later in the marriage. In fact, according to penny Junor's bio on Camilla this 'motherly' woman was the one who 'persuaded' Camilla to meet Charles again in the first place.

As for Diana giving interviews Charles's interview with Dimbleby came first. Charles didn't mind spilling the beans about Mrs PB on that occasion to millions of viewers. However that backfired as the public reacted badly.

According to Sarah Bradford, Charles publicly blamed his Private Secretary for that interview when he himself had been persuaded into it by Jonathon Dimbleby. He then asked the Duchess of Westminster for her view on his interview. When she politely stated that she didn't think it was a good idea he didn't speak to her for the rest of the weekend. (They were fellow guests at a house party.)

So please let's not pretend here that Charles wasn't and isn't capable of pettiness and petulant behaviour, or using the media for his own ends, or allowing his friends to do so. Or of manipulating his own image with favourable stories. Mark Bolland, remember him?

 

[COUNTESS]

Yes, Diana was afraid of people selling her out...and in some cases she was correct in that fear.

We rarely hear nowadays for instance of Camilla and the editor of the Sun newspaper keeping regularly in touch for nearly ten years from 1981, (one might ask why) or of people like Nicholas Soames (one of Charles's greatest friends) questioning Diana's sanity to the Press.

Or for that matter, Emillie van Cutsem, whom Diana thought of as a second mother when she was a young bride, being only one of several who offered their homes to Charles and his mistress for their liaisons later in the marriage. In fact, according to penny Junor's bio on Camilla this 'motherly' woman was the one who 'persuaded' Camilla to meet Charles again in the first place.

As for Diana giving interviews Charles's interview with Dimbleby came first. Charles didn't mind spilling the beans about Mrs PB on that occasion to millions of viewers. However that backfired as the public reacted badly.

According to Sarah Bradford, Charles publicly blamed his Private Secretary for that interview when he himself had been persuaded into it by Jonathon Dimbleby. He then asked the Duchess of Westminster for her view on his interview. When she politely stated that she didn't think it was a good idea he didn't speak to her for the rest of the weekend. (They were fellow guests at a house party.)

So please let's not pretend here that Charles wasn't and isn't capable of pettiness and petulant behaviour, or using the media for his own ends, or allowing his friends to do so. Or of manipulating his own image with favourable stories. Mark Bolland, remember him?

You are quite right. Diana had her insecurities and was, most probably, clingy. She thought she was his wife and to that end, his loyalty would be hers. That he had a better option for himself was his problem. I don't believe he ever gave up or would give up Camilla. She was his love. Right or wrong. And the puzzle didn't fit. He is a petulant and petty man at times, as has been reported. Remember he is the Prince Of Wales. He has been spoiled from the start. He had expectations and never was he thinking he would taken second seat to his wife. Now, he has what he wants. SDo, for him all is good.

 

[Osipi]

Life has a way of bringing out the best in people and the worse in people and no one is an exception.

In a marriage, it takes two people to make it work or two people to make it hell on earth. The problems between Diana and Charles were so diverse and complicated there was no way that they could make it work. All the crap that's been in the public eye and the interviews and the tell all books and the finger pointing are the effects of a marriage in turmoil. The marriage started out with the best intentions and we all know what road best intentions pave.

One thing did come out of it that is good and that is that short courtships and quick engagements because they look good on paper don't cut it anymore. Its good that now couples are encouraged to know that they mesh together in ordinary life and have trial and error before taking those vows. I really think that is the main factor why Diana and Charles' marriage didn't work. They had no clue of who the other person really was by experiencing living and being with each other. They married in haste and really, really repented that move for years afterwards.

 

[MARG]

I believe that Diana's ability to believe that she was loveable lay at the base of her problems. She needed constant positive reinforcement, Charles telling her she was loved only covered that moment. Every day he needed to "prove" he loved her.

Believing herself unloved she saw other friends of either sex as competition. She didn't quite grasp that love multiplied exponentially but rather seemed to believe any attention, praise or affection was given to anyone else, be they friends or employees, Diana saw as taken from her.

 

[Curryong]

But Charles was a needy and insecure individual as well, due to his cold childhood.

The trouble was that Charles and Diana needed things from each other that each was incapable of providing. Plus, marrying someone whom you discover really isn't in love with you but is bound heart and soul to another, would be more than a bit shattering to anyone.

 

[royal rob]

If you start married life being in love with someone other then your wife you don't get any sympathy from me.