Charles and Diana

[WreathOfLaurels]

Agreed. Recall my mother telling the 10 year old me off for criticising Charles's parenting, but that is how it looked at the time.

 

[Denville]

I am not saying this to start a fight, but I am just speculating. I think at the if Diana had just went along and participated in Charles's interests and been a little more submissive to the royal life, if what they had would have turned into love over time. It was a really nice life she married into. But, then both of them were immature and I don't know if either of them could have put the other first.

I think they boht tried. I dotnt think that Chas was a heartless so and so and I don't think that Di was a monster of selfishness. They did care for each other, she is a very child like hero worshipping way.. and he in a "i don't love her as much as Cam but she's a sweet girl" way. I think he tried to help her get intot royal life.. he took her on sunny holidays.. He played with the kids.. And she tried ot put up with Balmoral and shooting and polo.
But it was against their natural inlcinations. He was happy with the life he had, he did believe that Di shared some of his interests and would get inot the other ones as she grew older... and he already had Cam as a past love who DID share many interests but was capable of doing things on her onw when he wasn't around. He problaby expected the same from his wife, when he got one..
Diana was less independent than Cam, and she was still developing. And as she did develop, she grew away from the RF's tastes, she liked the city and the world of celebrity. She enjoyed going to the gym and swimming and tennis. C remained in his comfortable enjoyment of blood sports, gardening, living in the country..
She found the RF dull and stuffy, and IMO they started out thinking she was sweet and were delighted with her popularity but then began to find her emotionalism hard to cope with and to get a bit irritated that the public adored her, but didn't know how difficult she could be.
So as she grew more confident she was more ill at ease with the RF than ever and of course that impacted on the relationship with Charles..

 

[Denville]

No, Brown does quote someone I think, I can't find the page number but it seems to ring true for me. Read the Brandeth book, it's much better than it sounds

I tried ot find this bit about Cam trying to patch up her marriage with Andrew, in Tina B today, now I didn't read everything but I couldn't find it in the most obvious places.

 

[WreathOfLaurels]

Whoops it was Brandreth I was thinking of not brown - sorry! a page so where in the chapter where D enters the picture roughly the 220s in the paperback version I think

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

I've always though an older man should never marry a teenager because they don't even know who they are yet. There's no way Charles could have known what Diana's interests were because Diana herself didn't know at that age. It seems even after marriage Diana took a few years to develop her interests past being good with children. Charles tried and Diana tried by like you said Denville it was against their nature's and couples usually have at least something's in common to counteract the things they have to force themselves to do for their spouse. For example he likes monster trucks she likes Renaissance fairs and after they both like sitting on the couch watching Game of Thrones.

 

[COUNTESS]

I don't think it is absurd. OK the queen is a lot older than Di, but I think that with her frist 2 children she wasn't the most affectionate mother. Some of it was to do with her class and time, yes, but I think that perhaps it was only when she was older, with Andrew and Ed that she felt able to be a more relaxed mother. I get the feeling that she thought Di was over doting, and there is a story that one day whn Di was looking after the boys because it was Nanny's day off, she said "I don't know why Diana has to do this, there are plenty of housemaids". I think that she is of the age that saw nanny as the chief care giver... and I think there was a lot fo friction between Chas and botht parents. Of course they've moved past it.. They are basically good people and old enough to learn to get over things..but back in the 80s I think it was still bothering Charles that his parents had not been very affectionate to him..
I was watching some footage of Di and C with the children last night and yes it is obvious that Charles loves the boys, but not I think the way that Diana did. Her heart was bound up with those boys...and I think that C has only gotten really close to them since Diana died. I think that when his marriage got bad, he was away more and left the kids to Diana..
Of course he loves them and hes a more affectionate father than Phil was to him.. but I think that Diana lived for them.. and I don't think whatever her faults, that being a very very loving mother would do them any harm. I'm sure they had their times of being upset by her behaviour because she was angry and unhappy, but they knew she always loved htem and I think that it was easy to forgive her..

You are correct. The Queen is not the President or Prime Minister. Yes, she was young and had responsibilities, but warmth and love are easily given. That Charles loves the boys, is quite apparent and never questioned. He knew the sterility of his life. He spoke of it. And, in the queen's defense, she is not a warm type. That does not mean she doesn't love. And Philip is the same. I think that is why Catherine gravitates her children towards her family.

 

[Pranter]

I really don't see the DoE and Queen as being cold people....there's just too many photos of them warmly interacting with family/friends...children. Kate appears, to me, to have a warm relationship with the Queen and DoE...even Anne and Camilla.


LaRae

 

[WreathOfLaurels]

When Diana accused Charles and the rest of the RF of being cold and not into touching, her standards of such things were very demanding and the RF are not touchy feely people who wear their hears on their sleeves - some people are just like that through temperament.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

It was not Diana's fault that people just naturally flocked to see her and bypassed Charles. Diana was not born a Royal; she married a Royal and thus became a Royal. She was a lady first and foremost.

 

[Curryong]

When Diana accused Charles and the rest of the RF of being cold and not into touching, her standards of such things were very demanding and the RF are not touchy feely people who wear their hears on their sleeves - some people are just like that through temperament.

I don't think it was so much the 'touchy-feely' element that Diana commented on (the Queen is reserved and has the Windsor shyness and I can't imagine Prince Philip being the huggy type) as the fact that there was never any praise for her, even after her first tour, of Wales, which according to all accounts was an ordeal because of huge pressing crowds.

Charles gave her encouraging pep talks occasionally in those first months of her marriage when they did joint engagements together, but Diana apparently wished there could have been a query from other royals, a 'How are you feeling about meeting the crowds? Do you find it at all fun/intimidating?' a cheery 'You seem to be getting on well, Well done!' But there was nothing.

Now, I know that the BRF for the most part are matter of fact sort of people who 'just get on with it' and they were all used to crowds and Royal engagements, probably didn't even think of giving any praise, but please remember Diana's age when she married, just 20, and the fact that she would have appreciated some feedback. A 'Well Done' when she performed an engagement professionally and pleased the crowds wouldn't have gone astray.

 

[Queen Camilla]

Charles was supportive. Her staff was supportive. And not just for a few months.

Behind the scene, QEQM and the BRF might have been supportive as were probably her family who were 'members' of the BRF 'team', like Diana's grandmother and great aunts.

When did Diana do her first solo walk about?

She and Charles did public events before they married.

Excluding going to Monaco after Grace Kelly's death, when and what was Diana's first solo engagement.

 

[Curryong]

Diana wasn't really close to her grandmother Ruth and her great aunts. I didn't say anything about solo engagements. Even with Charles by her side, (and I said in my post that he was encouraging) facing huge crowds, even welcoming ones, and making smalltalk with strangers, would have been an ordeal for someone not long out of her teens.

I've no doubt that her staff were supportive. They were paid to be. Diana felt that her inlaws didn't give her any praise or encouragement and there is no anecdotal evidence anywhere that they did, probably for the reasons I put in my post.

 

[Queen Camilla]

I do not understand what was expected from the BRF?

In 1981, she visited Wales with Charles and then a walk about at Christmas with the entire family.

 

[MARG]

I've always though an older man should never marry a teenager because they don't even know who they are yet. There's no way Charles could have known what Diana's interests were because Diana herself didn't know at that age.

I think it really comes down to selfless love, love that gives and doesn't take. My mother married at 18 and my father was 14 years older and yet they lived and loved and shared. Many were quite surprised at just how old my father was when he died! But, for them age was irrelevant, they were just any married couple. Happines is not promised to anyone but a choice to be made.

 

[Lee-Z]

Imo the temperament of the BRF and Diana was one of the biggest mismatches, Diana seems indeed to have been a person who liked to get compliments once in a while (maybe often) and explicit compliments not just "implied without it needing to be said", whereas the Windsors, as imo is very clear from recent documentaries are very understated with eachother and have a somewhat sarcastic sense of humor but if you're used to that and are the same yourself, you'll know that these have an underlying sense of appreciation.
(My family are the same really in this aspect, but i know it can come acros as strange to outsiders; we try to tone it down when others are around..)

Maybe they did some extra effort in the beginning, but it's not in their nature to always use open praise for someone, and imo Diana never got used to that (and probably never would have as it was 180 degrees opposite to the way she would have wanted)

It wasn't an ideal match, but my personal believe is that the relationship would have gotten better after Diana's independence after the divorce and she didn't rely on them anymore for the compliments

Sadly, her life was cut short too early

 

[Denville]

I think that some of thte Windsors are rather cold, and all of them nearly are of the old fashioned "Get on with it" school. Diana needed a lot of reassurance, perhaps more than was realistic.. but whatever she hoped for, she really was not going to get it with them.
I think the queen is shy, and awkward even with the people she loves most and Charles felt that lack of overt affection, when he was a kid. Anne probalby didn't because she is a very tough IMO hard edged creature and wasn't bothered by it.
But Diana tried to give her sons lots of love, and so in his way did Charles. Perhaps he wasn't as devoted, or spending as much time with them as she did, but he clearly DID feel from footage I have seen of him, that he should show them plenty of "touching" affection.

 

[Pranter]

There are people who just require a lot of positive reinforcement ..I think Diana was one of those. Not to mention she was very young and insecure. Not that confident. She probably needed that propping up/support more than anyone realized. She put on a good front perhaps and the family didn't realize she was struggling as much as she was, not at first anyway.


LaRae

 

[Denville]

There are people who just require a lot of positive reinforcement ..I think Diana was one of those. Not to mention she was very young and insecure. Not that confident. She probably needed that propping up/support more than anyone realized. She put on a good front perhaps and the family didn't realize she was struggling as much as she was, not at first anyway.


LaRae

i can see that it was probably tiring, for both C and his family, to have Diana looking for constant reassurance.. but she was young, naieve, and very very immature...

 

[WreathOfLaurels]

Catherine Meyer's bio of Charles makes the point of his emotional immaturity and just how emotionally febrile he was as well. Their similarities had as much to with the breakdown of the relationship as did their differences. Meyer also mentions the generation gap between the two (Charles was born in 1948 and Diana in 1961) as a factor as well.

 

[LauraS3514]

But it wasn't helped by Charles's being more deeply in love with Camilla

And there's the crux of the issue. The Prince of Wales was 32 when he proposed to a 19 year old with stars in her eyes. Charles, knowing how he felt about Camilla, had absolutely no business proposing marriage to Diana or anyone else under any circumstances - not even with full disclosure of his love for Camilla. It was patently unfair to not only Diana, but to himself as well. That being said, there's more than enough blame to go around once the marriage was a reality; no one came out well.

 

[COUNTESS]

In most marriage there is a flower and a gardener. In this marriage there were two flowers, so no one was tended to. Charles and Diana both grew up in a less than warm environment. I think Diana decided to be huggy and kissy. What she missed. That is not Charles style. That doesn't mean that he doesn't care. They couldn't communicate. And Charles had the rigid life that he was used to. And he just needed to fill a void, which was a proper princess.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Catherine Meyer's bio of Charles makes the point of his emotional immaturity and just how emotionally febrile he was as well. Their similarities had as much to with the breakdown of the relationship as did their differences. Meyer also mentions the generation gap between the two (Charles was born in 1948 and Diana in 1961) as a factor as well.

WreathofLaurels, Thank you for mentioning about the generation gap. Diana was actually closer in age to her brothers-in-law, Andrew and Edward.

 

[WreathOfLaurels]

WreathofLaurels, Thank you for mentioning about the generation gap. Diana was actually closer in age to her brothers-in-law, Andrew and Edward.

I always thought Diana would have been better off with Andrew for that reason and that they seemed a better suited couple overall.

 

[Denville]

And there's the crux of the issue. The Prince of Wales was 32 when he proposed to a 19 year old with stars in her eyes. Charles, knowing how he felt about Camilla, had absolutely no business proposing marriage to Diana or anyone else under any circumstances - not even with full disclosure of his love for Camilla. It was patently unfair to not only Diana, but to himself as well. That being said, there's more than enough blame to go around once the marriage was a reality; no one came out well.

He did not have a choice. He had to get married fairly soon, and put aside his feeligns for Cam.

 

[Jacknch]

Their similarities had as much to with the breakdown of the relationship as did their differences. Meyer also mentions the generation gap between the two (Charles was born in 1948 and Diana in 1961) as a factor as well.

I think this is what it all boils down to, when all is said and done.
Generally there can be no harm in an age gap between couples - countless marriages work perfectly well with such an age difference. But it makes me wonder had Charles and Diana met and married 10 years later, keeping the age gap mind, they may both have been mature enough to manage and understand one another's differences better.

 

[Denville]

but the point was, he had to get married, before he was much past 30, and have an heir and give the country a princess to admire who would help with his duties. and he had to marry a girl with no past, so that meant a young woman.

 

[WreathOfLaurels]

@Jacknch - Meyer said a generation gap not an age gap. Diana was a baby boomer and Charles was born in the tail end of the 1940s. There have been marriages with similar age gaps which have been successful but those ones often mean one of the partners being very mature or coming within the same generational band. on top of that Charles always belonged more to his parents generation in many ways, which would have exacerbated things.

 

[Osipi]

The more we read and realize and talk about all the major differences between Charles and Diana and the different factors that played a huge role in the downfall of a "fairy tale" marriage, the more I'm realizing that so much heartache could have been avoided had these two people taken time for a longer courtship and engagement period and really had gotten to know each other, cemented a friendship or realized that they were just too different to really make a good partnership.

Its a real life example of "fools rush in where angels fear to tread" kind of thing.

 

[Denville]

how could that have happened? The press were persecuting them, his family were urging him to get on with it. I'm sure if Diana's family were doing anyting, they wantd her future settled...

 

[TLLK]

The more we read and realize and talk about all the major differences between Charles and Diana and the different factors that played a huge role in the downfall of a "fairy tale" marriage, the more I'm realizing that so much heartache could have been avoided had these two people taken time for a longer courtship and engagement period and really had gotten to know each other, cemented a friendship or realized that they were just too different to really make a good partnership.

Its a real life example of "fools rush in where angels fear to tread" kind of thing.

I agree Osipi this is a perfect example of "fools rush in.." As it is so often with these types of situations, hindsight is 20-20.

Neither of them spent enough time really getting to know each other and I don't believe that either was honest regarding their interests, values, and expectations for the marriage. There were those in their circle who tried to warn them that they were incompatible. Charles should have informed Diana regarding his past with Camilla and his then current friendship with her.

While it would have been distressing to end the engagement and call of the wedding, in the long run it would have been better for both of them.