Charles and Diana

[Denville]

I dont know. The impression you get is that Diana really hated Raine, but perhaps she went gushy over her at times when well when it suited her to have R as an ally. I dont beleive myself the stories that Johnny hit Frances, I feel that if he had, Diana woudl have been more forgiving of her mother for leaving, but I alwasy feel that while she tried, and she did love her mother, their relationship was always on the brink of trouble becuase the litte girl in Diana could not forgive her mother for walking out, and it problaby was the root of her fear of being deserted by friends, husband lovers etc.I dont blame her, I dont rate Frances very highly and I always feel that she was not much support to Diana.
My impression was that none of the children liked Raine, but they put up with her after the first year or 2 because they had to, she was their father's wife, but they weren't sorry to see her go when he passed away. But after the pushing her incident, later on Diana did make up with Raine and was seen out wth her, at a time when her allies in the upper class world were fewer...

 

[Denville]

I

I have always thought that Diana knew how close Charles and Camilla were from the beginning but I don't think we'll ever know just how intimate that relationship was leading up to the wedding in 1981 and just how much Diana knew. I d and Camilla were part of Charles' social circle of friends.

I agree, but some people who simply cannot admit any fault in Diana, seem to believe her story that she put out, that she didn't really know of the Charles and Camilla affair and that she only realised it fully when she and Chas were engaged, and that she could not then break off the engagement.. so she was totally innocent..
HOwever Im reasonably sure she knew that Charles had been in a relationship with Camilla and was always going to be fond of her and close with her..

 

[Osipi]

The horrible things between Diana and Raine seemed to happen in situations that were already emotionally charged; e.g., Charles Spencer's marriage and Diana's father's death. Possibly Diana was one of those individuals who get very caught up in other people's emotions as well as her own. For those with empathy and compassion, feelings can be overwhelming. If a person doesn't learn to handle this and distance themselves, they can end up acting out. It seems as though, in the Spencer family, blowing up and hurting people wasn't an abnormal thing. The late Earl Spencer was rumoured to hit Diana's mother, for example. If a child grows up in that kind of environment, they see it as normal even though it causes them great distress. Had Diana's parents had a stable marriage, I think that things would have been very different in the years to come. Jane seems to have been the only sibling who hasn't had serious problems.

From what I've read, when Diana got angry with Charles, she was loud, she was vocal and let it all fly. A lot of people are that way. Charles, on the other hand hated confrontation and instead of blowing up, yelling back and participating in the fight, he'd just walk away and that would just infuriate Diana even more.

Just another area where the two were very mismatched.

 

[Jacknch]

Please note that discussion concerning Diana's relationship with her step-mother can be posted in the following thread:

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...with-her-stepmother-raine-spencer-9222-6.html

Lets try and stay on topic please.

 

[Denville]

Well some men are like that and just want no fuss or rows so they do walk off and go to the pub. I think that the Spencers DO yell and shout, and Charles jsut didn't like it. So Diana is reputed to have chased after him sometimes just to continue the argument...

 

[Lady Nimue]

Well, yeah, things went bad for them. What scares me is the hundreds of false rumors that was applied to their story. A great deal of people made up all kinds of stuff about the Waleses and turned their story into a soap opera for profit.

One of them being Diana herself, unfortunately. Her initial spin continues to weave through the narratives brought forward to this day.

As for Diana not having support, from all that I have read, she pushed away all 'help'. It's a pretty complicated story, fraught with multi-layered motivations. She seemed quite happy not being meddled with (supported) while she conducted her own affairs.

And as for Charles being supposedly the older and maturer adult, well, yes, but...he had quite literally just gone through a horrific shock with the death of his Uncle. Not only that, his future married life had already shades of a trajectory with someone (an arranged marriage that Diana knew about). There was even house and property (prior to Highgrove) that Charles was going to use with that possible marriage. With his Uncle's death, everything was thrown up in the air, and he was left with his grief, and the mounting pressure to marry. In many ways, Charles was not in a position to make such life decisions then. He needed space and protection from such pressure, none of which he got. He was easy prey.

 

[Curryong]

No-one forced Charles into being attracted to Diana and dating her. He pursued her as much if not more than Diana pursued him. It was Charles who decided, according to his friends, to treat his father's letter asking him not to allow things to drift so that Diana's reputation wouldn't be damaged, as an ultimatum. His friends and family weren't all down on their knees begging him to get married. That was media pressure.

Charles could have ignored the media's wish for a Princess NOW, had he wished to. He was emotionally bound to another woman and was not head over heels with Diana. He had doubts, as we know through the Dimbleby book and not just after the engagement.

He was 32 not 22. He could have dated Diana for a year if he'd wished and then made up his mind what he felt about her. What would the media have done? Whined? Well, too bad, they'd often whined about Charles.

Part of being an adult is that as you mature you make your own decisions, for good or ill. You don't, or shouldn't, if you are a celebrity or well known person, allow yourself to be swept to the altar because 'the country ie media' wants it.

Charles didn't listen to what his heart and instincts were telling him and went ahead and proposed to a very young woman for whom he did not feel half the devotion, love and affection he felt for Camilla PB. Out of that decision came all the ensuing distress and misery of a disastrous marriage.

 

[Denville]

I don't think that Charles or Diana were to blame more than the other, but I agree that he wasn't a helpless innocent who "needed protection!". He was under a lot of pressure to marry, I do believe. Diana seemed so right, the meida loved her, the RF liked her, the public seemed to be attracted to her, and if he let her go, he would have had to start again, find another young woman and this time there might be an even bigger age gap. And I believe that the RF were concerned that Diana might suffer to an extent if the relationship dragged on any longer. I think if he'd dated her for a year, and then said in effect "I've realised she's not suitable" I think he'd have been attacked in the tabloids as a heartless older man toying with the affections of a much younger woman. It woudlnt' have looked good for him or the RF. he had reached the age when he really did need to marry, and the "having ot marry a virgin" situation was only going to get worse form then onwards. And I don't believe that Diana would have been the one to "realise ti was a mistake" and break it off. She needed to get married too, and she wanted it to be the best marriage she could achieve, form a social point of view. I think even if they had gone out for a year, she would have still managed to delude herself that she loved the country life that she actually didn't enjoy..

 

[Nico]

Part of being an adult is that as you mature you make your own decisions, for good or ill. You don't, or shouldn't, if you are a celebrity or well known person, allow yourself to be swept to the altar because 'the country ie media' wants it.

And part of being a royal is to put country first and i bet the Queen taught to his over sensitive son that personnal matters or feelings didn't belong to the royal duties.
Yeah Charles "should" or "could" : good advices ! But 30 years late... The propblem with the Charles and Diana case is that everybody wants to put some grain of salt from some personnal perspectives. But are we Royals ? Do we know the pressure lived by an heir to the throne ? I guess not. These people live in a complete different world from ours and the rules are simply not the same. Charles and Diana's wedding was arranged. period. Is it shocking ? Not in the royal world. They both took lovers. Period. Is it shocking ? Not in the royal world.
Can we just stop seeing and judging this story with our "petits bourgeois" values. Royals are not like us. Period.

 

[Curryong]

Sorry, Nico but Charles and Diana's marriage wasn't arranged, unless it was 'arranged' in defacto fashion by the media who were so eager to see Charles wed to a stunning and seemingly suitable young woman. However, members of the Royal family, Charles's parents, even his grandmother, would have been horrified to think that they were forcing him to the altar. The Queen, for example apparently refused to give advice to Charles as to what to do lest she should sway him.

The Royal Forums is an opinions forum, and so of course our opinions on things and people that we discuss is informed by our own life experiences.
Short of us all becoming courtiers or royals ourselves, of course we don't know what life as a senior Royal is like. Nevertheless, the vast majority of posters here do have a clear view of how royal families operate and the pressures on them. Many of us, including myself, are history buffs.

Some royals are very firm about the people they want to marry. Felipe of Spain, Harald of Norway, Victoria of Sweden all waited years, in spite of pressure from within their families, to marry their chosen partners. They didn't decide to marry someone they weren't really in love with or bonded to, because the 'country demanded it'.

All I'm saying is that it's a pity that Charles didn't similarly listen to what his heart was telling him.

 

[Denville]

I think regardless of what the RF said or thought, they were putting pressure on him. THey may not have said "Marry Diana or you will look bad,!" or Marry Diana or we're going to go on at you, but that was a kind of implicit thng that it was time for him to marry, he had to marry a virgin, where was he going to get another one? They may have wrung their hands later and said "Oh we didn't want him to be unhappy" but I think that their attitude at heart was He had to find a suitable bride, diana seemed very suitable, and if they didn't know each other very well they'd get to know each other later..
Apart from King Harald of Norway, other heirs were from a different generation, and indeed a different culture..Victoria of Sweden was born around 1970 about 25 years after Charles, and to a more liberal monarchy.

 

[Osipi]

I really don't know how etched in stone it was back then in the early 80s that Charles' bride would have to be a virgin. Only thing that I can recall reading is that before the wedding, Diana did visit a gynecologist but that was mostly to determine whether or not she could bear children. Hopefully someone will have more in depth information on this angle. I do agree that in the 80s, should Charles have met and wanted to marry someone closer to his own age, the chances of finding a "pure" bride would be near impossible.

Diana came from a suitable lineage, she was presumed to be "pure", she seemed malleable at the time such that she would fit in and do what she was shown to do. In fact, after meeting her, I believe Camilla called her a "mouse". Turned out to be a mouse that roared though eh?

I also think that the both of them did go into this marriage with the intention of making it a forever kind of thing but once their differences started rearing their heads, the both of them weren't willing to compromise, talk things through and most importantly, work together to make the marriage work. Perhaps she was too young and naive and he was too set in his ways and expected his life to continue as it had been with little change. I don't know. I just feel that it was a marriage that was between two totally unsuited people. It happens. One good factor that always remained was they both worked together and agreed on their parenting. The end result is two wonderful adult sons that take the best from both parents.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

Perhaps from the moment the media first found out who she was and started stalking her, it was all over. Charles couldn't dump her or he'd be callous and cruel and she would be damaged goods despite keeping her virtue intact.
Not everyone can be Prince Albert and have the strength to remain single until your in your 40s or 50s.
I don't think anything would have turned Diana off from dating Charles; in her mind if he likes fishing then she likes fishing, if he likes books she likes books, if he likes to garden she likes to garden. She's like the high school girl with her first boyfriend.

 

[Denville]

ALbert is an absolute monarch, he does not have the web of expectations that someone like Charles had..
I Dont think that Diana would have been seen as "damaged goods" per se, but I think the RF did think it would look bad, if Charles went out for a long time witht a young girl who did seem very innocent and sweet, and then gave her the push after say a year. (And I suppose that without any questions being raised about her sexual virtue people mgiht say "what IS wrong with the girl that he dropped her, she seemed so sweet and perfect, is there something else wrong?

But I agree that I think she did fool herself into beleivng she was really into all of C's hobbies, and I think she'd have gone on doing that for a long time..
And I think that when they hit thier problems, charles was too set in his ways to make a serious change (though I think he tried) and by then, I think that Diana had become very depressed and rather difficult. She might have adjusted to married life, even such a high pressure marriage, if she had maybe had several years of being like W and Kate, BOTH only doing part time work, having the children..adjusting gradually.. and if Charles had been able to spend more time with her than was the case.. but I think that really it was a tragedy that they just didn't have much in common, she didn't have much in common with the rest of the RF, and she felt trapped in a horribly alien lifestyle from early on.. and her bulimia happened which made her irrational...
I think that Diana always had a need for a very close relationship, to help her wit her abandonment issues, and perhaps she did not expect such closeness form girlfriends or her pre marriage boyfriends.. but when she found a husband she DID expect it.. So it didn't surface before she got married. But when she was married, she was hoping that she would always have her man close to her and feel loved and secure.. and the man she got was someone who already had a woman that he felt especially close to, he had a busy lifestyle, he had a family who insisted on a certain rather rigid way of life.. and he realised soon that she did't really enjoy the things that she had claimed ot enjoy..so if they were together, they did not have much other than the children to talk about...

 

[Curryong]

I think your last paragraph especially sums up the situation very well, Denville.

 

[Mermaid1962]

The irony is that, early in their marriage, Diana was accused of trying to change him too much.

And I think that when they hit their problems, charles was too set in his ways to make a serious change (though I think he tried) and by then, I think that Diana had become very depressed and rather difficult.

 

[COUNTESS]

Charles needed the limelight. Diana stole it. Charles was not Jack Kennedy, who realized the power of a very admired wife. Charles is a "Royal" and he believes that makes him better. Diana was acceptable, but she became number one. Charles was not raised to accept that position.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

Oh yes the ole Charles was jealous of Diana dance
Back to Denville, you're probably right; but I can't fault Charles for having a life. I don't believe married couples need.to be together all the time. Diana wanting Charles all the time and him not being there kind of makes me think of military wives; your husband can't hold your hand because he has to go off to work. Of course its not the same, sometimes Charles was freaking hunting not working. She had a romantic idea about what marriage was and he had a business idea about what marriage was.
Perhaps the media wouldn't have seen her as damaged goods, there were other girls before her who turned out OK. Just looking back I question what was the rush? Why rush them to get married, why rush having a baby?!
She was 20...why rush? Let her ease into things and then throw away the birth control.

 

[Curryong]

There's plenty of testimony from Charles's aides and others that Charles, however much he may have tried not to, did end up feeling resentful of Diana's success with the public. One of them found him kicking stones around after an early visit and stating 'They don't want to see me" for example.

He was worried about Diana at first in the early public and media craze for her but then seems to have been bewildered and confounded by her star power and couldn't understand why people didn't appreciate his speeches, causes, good works, etc in the same way. Charles became resentful that his speeches and pronouncements weren't getting the same attention in the media as his wife's frocks and genuine interaction with the public.

Charles has done an enormous amount of good in his lifetime, but he's never quite understood that a man in a suit doesn't (usually) get the same amount of attention from the crowds as a pretty, beautifully dressed young woman. Shallow but true. As can be seen even now from the lesser amount of publicity William usually gets from sole engagements than he does when Kate accompanies him. Charles's inability to grasp this did lead to jealousy and resentment eventually, and Diana, at least at first, felt bad about it.

 

[Denville]

Well I can't entirely blame him for soem jealousy and bewilderment that Diana got more attention than him. He's human. He was used to be No 1 and she came along and was such an amazing media sucess all without opening her mouth realy. And I do think at first that he was worried for her rather than really jealous. His letters seem to bear out that he was feeling "how can ANYONE be stable with this sort of crazy attention? HOw can she live with the media absolutely following her every step. What happens wehn she slips up or they just get tired of her?"
and I think that he coudl see she wasn't 100% stable and it really worried him. Later I think he did get fed up, and I think others in the RF were the same, becuase she was still adored by the papers and public, but he knew her more difficult side...

 

[Curryong]

Perhaps from the moment the media first found out who she was and started stalking her, it was all over. Charles couldn't dump her or he'd be callous and cruel and she would be damaged goods despite keeping her virtue intact.
Not everyone can be Prince Albert and have the strength to remain single until your in your 40s or 50s.
I don't think anything would have turned Diana off from dating Charles; in her mind if he likes fishing then she likes fishing, if he likes books she likes books, if he likes to garden she likes to garden. She's like the high school girl with her first boyfriend.

Charles WAS Diana's first steady boyfriend. And she was a very young 19.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

Well I can't entirely blame him for soem jealousy and bewilderment that Diana got more attention than him. He's human. He was used to be No 1 and she came along and was such an amazing media sucess all without opening her mouth realy. And I do think at first that he was worried for her rather than really jealous. His letters seem to bear out that he was feeling "how can ANYONE be stable with this sort of crazy attention? HOw can she live with the media absolutely following her every step. What happens wehn she slips up or they just get tired of her?"
and I think that he coudl see she wasn't 100% stable and it really worried him. Later I think he did get fed up, and I think others in the RF were the same, becuase she was still adored by the papers and public, but he knew her more difficult side...

Your right he did get fed up, my problem is with the idea of "the marriage was doomed because Charles was jealous because Diana was so popular" theory. To be sure the popularity goes both ways, it was good for the royals but it was also shallow. Diana could have given a speech on the discovery of blue men on Mars and the front headline was going to be Diana wore a blue dress with blue shoes and her hair worn up to give some speech about space.
If they were better at it they could have figured out some way to balance it better like JFK did with the OK obsession with Jackie not getting in the way of his work.

I do think they got fed up with it but I can't blame them or blame her for being fascinating. What I do blame is I'd they treated her bad because of that and if she purposely fed the media fascination to pull attention from them onto her.

 

[Denville]

I dont think that they treated her unkindly because of it.. but the more she didn't fit in, the more her bulimia and lack of liking for Their way of life showed up in private, I think that the RF being only human got fed up with her always stealing the limelight from them. And later on her stealing the limelight became much less innocent...

 

[Denville]

Charles WAS Diana's first steady boyfriend. And she was a very young 19.

She was, that was the trouble. She was as Nick Soames said, very very immature for her age. He said it was like talking to a very young teenager.. I'd say more like 15 than 19 or 20...And she had got issues, not her fault but I think that once she got married, she wanted a lot of attention. Perhaps if charles had been able to spend a few years being a very on tap husband, and maybe Di had had psychiatric help to help her get used gradually to royal life and married life..(ie neithter of them had a full programme of work to do then), she might have gradually "grown up" and adjusted...
And i think too if Camill had been completely out of the picture. But even if she had been I think that Charles once he realised how volatile Diana was, was going to think longingly of her at times.. and Diana I would say would alwasy be a bit jealous and feel that he was thinking of Camilla EVEN If he wasnt...

 

[Lady Nimue]

Charles has done an enormous amount of good in his lifetime, but he's never quite understood that a man in a suit doesn't (usually) get the same amount of attention from the crowds as a pretty, beautifully dressed young woman. Shallow but true. As can be seen even now from the lesser amount of publicity William usually gets from sole engagements than he does when Kate accompanies him. Charles's inability to grasp this did lead to jealousy and resentment eventually, and Diana, at least at first, felt bad about it.

Interesting comparison you are making. Fact is, from what I can see in all the video, Diana very early on allowed the crowd response to her to go to her head. Catherine has not, and in fact makes every effort to maintain by William's side when they are out-and-about together.

Diana did not defer to Charles. In fact, she openly upstaged him. Amazing thing to watch. I view it as partly to do with the fact that Diana was immature, yes, but also (and more importantly) aristocratic. She had an innate sense of herself as being on a par with Charles from her upper-class lineage and upbringing, something Catherine does not have. (Quite the reverse, Catherine must walk a more careful walk by the very reason she is a 'commoner').

I do agree that a woman generates a great deal of interest, but a handsome, athletically trim, and well dressed man has the same effect, if he is also warm and charming.

Sorry, Nico but Charles and Diana's marriage wasn't arranged, unless it was 'arranged' in defacto fashion by the media who were so eager to see Charles wed to a stunning and seemingly suitable young woman. However, members of the Royal family, Charles's parents, even his grandmother, would have been horrified to think that they were forcing him to the altar. The Queen, for example apparently refused to give advice to Charles as to what to do lest she should sway him.

It was about as 'arranged' as it could be in the late 20th century. She was the girl next door. She grew up playing with his brothers. She was 'acceptable'. The other 'acceptable' girl had said 'no' just months before. It was time to 'get on with it'.

Just looking back I question what was the rush? Why rush them to get married, why rush having a baby?! She was 20...why rush? Let her ease into things and then throw away the birth control.

Exactly so. And imagine had he waited! Marrying closer to his 50's, we'd be cooing over his babies rather than William's. Given the longevity of the Queen, it would make more sense, plus the whole sad drama would have been avoided.

 

[Pranter]

I think the Family thought the hoopla with Diana would die off after they got married ...it just increased.

I also think the Family realized after the disaster of tossing Diana into the deep end (even if not done intentionally) there were some mistakes made and this is a big reason (besides the fact William is not the heir) they have made it a point to go to the other end of the spectrum with W&K. Long time developing the relationship and then after marrying a long slow entrance into royal life/duties etc.

I think we all see which one is working out better.


I don't think Kate has any less sense of her worth than Diana did (for all her upper class pedigree). IMO she is much more sure of herself and confident of her value. Certainly we heard the reports of back when they were dating her responding to a comment about how she was lucky to be with him or to have him...and she responded he was lucky to have her (and I quite agree).


LaRae

 

[Curryong]

Kate doesn't get the hoopla and the massive crowds for her engagements Diana did. Crowds of more than 100,000 in Brisbane alone. On one engagement in Australia on walk-about, Diana shook an estimated 6,000 hands That time has passed. Also there is an advantage in being heir to the heir. Charles, as Prince of Wales, HAD to have a wife who hit the ground running from the beginning.

Diana didn't make up to the crowds or enjoy the publicity at all in her first years. On the first official tour (to Wales) she wept in the car between engagements, convinced that she was doing things wrong (according to Bedell Smith and Diana's own recounting) and not wishing to face the huge crowd turnout again. She had to be persuaded out by Charles.

Diana feared making public appearances on her own early in her marriage. She switched on the Christmas lights in Regent St requiring a three sentence speech and was extremely nervous. "I was sh-- scared" she said later.

In Australia the Diana craze continued unabated. However Diana recalled "All you could hear was 'Oh she's on the other side'....Now if you're a man, and like my husband, a proud man, you mind about that if you hear it every day for four weeks.' In an April letter written to a friend Diana stated that they were supporting each other about this.

 

[Osipi]

Kate doesn't get the hoopla and the massive crowds for her engagements Diana did. Crowds of more than 100,000 in Brisbane alone. On one engagement in Australia on walk-about, Diana shook an estimated 6,000 hands That time has passed. Also there is an advantage in being heir to the heir. Charles, as Prince of Wales, HAD to have a wife who hit the ground running from the beginning.

I can remember reading about those turnouts and they were humungous. One thing I'm glad of though is that William and Kate don't get those kind of crowds and I would think they would kind of try to discourage them because of the high level of security needed in these days and these times. The worldwide threat of terrorism in the 80s is nowhere near what it is today.

Didn't Charles joke in Australia too that he needed two wives? One for each side of the street? Its vague in my mind but I just can't remember where it was.

 

[Curryong]

There was a campaign throughout Britain of IRA bombings through the 1980's, though.

Yes, I think Charles did make a joke like that at the time, as well as saying things to the crowds on his side like 'You'll just have to put up with me.'

I went to Sydney when William and Kate were on their Oz tour with George, but the crowds, though large in some places, weren't spectacular. I can still remember waiting with a crowd for Diana to arrive for an evening engagement in Melbourne on her first tour of Aus/NZ with Charles.

 

[Denville]

I largely agree with Curry.. I don't think that Diana consciously upstaged Charles at first. She just had a special quality, and attracted people. I think it bewildered her as much as it did Charles. I agree Nimue that Kate is probably trying NOT to upstage Will, she knows she's the "second banana" but I think that Diana couldn't help being loved by the crowds...
I think that yes the RF have been more careful about new wives joining the RF now and are giving them a longer "slow introduction"..
But at the time of the 80s Charles was a very busy and visible POW and his wife was supposed to be seen with him and support him.. and she did, I think that yes later, she did play up more and used her popularity against him and the RF but not at first