Charles and Diana

[Dman]

Diana was no saint and made her mistakes but I do think its sad that some thought Diana was a very unstable person. I think she was a kindhearted person that wasn't treated well by many but she managed to support great causes, be a great mom, do her royal duties and just get on with things.

I do wished she had lived to find a new path in life. Her passing took place just when she was about to turn things around. She was going to work with President Clinton and President Mandela on the aids cause. Charles had asked her to accompany him on Britannia's final tour before it was due to be decommissioned. I'm sure there were other causes she wanted to support and I know she would've enjoyed watching William & Harry grow up.

I'll remember the great things did while here and not make the failure of her marriage the main focus but reflect on the good memories. The Queen put it best at the Memorial Fountain ceremony, there were difficult times but a lot of it mellowed with the passing of the years.

Dman, I am so with on much that you say because I was where you are once, as well. I may have shifted how I view Diana but I do think there was 'real stuff' there in the marriage. You can't have babies with someone without feeling something. His grief at her death was genuine. [Remember, that even while she railed about Charles and the public was hearing all the innuendos she had to say about the BRF - when Diana was in need, she was calling up Charles and he was handling things for her. That's not the behavior of a man who hated her.]

I will also admit that in private when the two clashed Charles was who he was without apology, as was Diana. No innocents there - yet I also have consistently read that person after person who experienced them as a couple, and who watched Charles at particular moments in regards to her - express regret that the marriage didn't work, that they couldn't make it work.

One previous girlfriend mentioned how easily Charles fell in love - and I believe he did fall in love with her. Had Diana been a bit less clever and a bit more savvy she could have had Charles dancing her tune. In fact she already was in many ways.

If only, if only, if only.....that's what makes tragedy, and this story is a tragedy.

I have always believed that there was real love between the couple and I'm sure they've wished things didn't go down as it did. I think it's a slap in William & Harry's face to say their parents never loved each other, should've never married and that their mother never had all her marbles.

I don't know if anyone noticed but during the Thanksgiving service to commemorate the tenth anniversary of Diana's passing, Charles looked totally devastated. His face was drawn and nose was red, as if he had shed a tear. I think his grief for the mother of his children is deep and personal. I'm sure he'll never forget her and as William & Harry have pointed out, they talk about her all the time. She's not forgotten.

 

[georgiea]

Diana was on antidepressants, which helped with the symptoms of her eating disorder and some of her need to physically harm herself. However, she needed counseling to help her develop strategies to address her obsessive need for attention (i.e., calling Khan up to 20 times a day).

Counseling could have helped her overcome her impulsive nature, which I believe led to her death. She often did things without thinking through the consequences. For example, she did the TV interview and didn't even consider the impact it would have on William and Harry until after the interview.

Did she take pills? I read in one of my books that Diana didn't like taking pills (her set of aristocrats did not). Diana major mental fault was an eating disorder she was not sick with depression because she never miss a royal engagement or look like you do when you depressed. I think her impulsive nature or actions by the heart as she called it instead of the brain was Diana's biggest fault, plus her immaturity. I truly believe if the Diana came in Charles life at 30 instead of 18 she would have been ready for the life with him because she would be mature and worldly.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

Did she take pills? I read in one of my books that Diana didn't like taking pills (her set of aristocrats did not). Diana major mental fault was an eating disorder she was not sick with depression because she never miss a royal engagement or look like you do when you depressed. I think her impulsive nature or actions by the heart as she called it instead of the brain was Diana's biggest fault, plus her immaturity. I truly believe if the Diana came in Charles life at 30 instead of 18 she would have been ready for the life with him because she would be mature and worldly.

I have read that she was on anti-depressants at the end of her life, which helped control her bulimia. The severity of her depression is an open question. I agree that she was able to function, but another poster on the thread about Diana's illness explained that in some cases, a person can be severely depressed and able to function at the same time.

A high percentage of people who suffer from bulimia also suffer from a personality disorder. We know Diana exhibited obsessive traits. For example, she made hundreds of nuisance calls to Oliver Hoare after he broke up with her and she virtually stalked Hasnat Khan. She was also extremely impulsive and self-destructive.

 

[Dman]

Where's the evidence that Diana stalked Hasnat Khan?

So easy to talk about Diana and her problems but its funny how I hear nothing about Charles's problems. He too had deep personal issues and has publicly thrown his parents under the bus due to it.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

Where's the evidence that Diana stalked Hasnat Khan?

So easy to talk about Diana and her problems but its funny how I hear nothing about Charles's problems. He too had deep personal issues and has publicly thrown his parents under the bus due to it.

Tina Brown has stated that Diana called Khan as much as 20 times a day. She planned a secret wedding without telling him. She flew to Pakistan to meet with his family, also without telling him in advance. That is the behavior of a stalker. And Tina Brown is one of Diana's fans.

Charles certainly had problems and his attempt to blame his parents for a decision he made when he was 30 was pathetic, but does not indicate a mental illness.

You seem to think that saying Diana suffered from a mental illness is an insult to her. It isn't. Mental illnesses are medical conditions. Diana herself said that she was depressed and suffered from bulimia. She also claimed to engage in self-mutilation and claimed to throw herself down a flight of stairs. How many people do you know who do things like that? If you knew someone like that, you would agree that that person needed medical help.

Diana also displayed obsessive traits. The police traced the nuisance calls to Oliver Hoare to her. Calling someone hundreds of times and hanging up is stalking behavior. Calling Khan up to 20 times a day is not normal, especially considering he is a surgeon.

 

[Dman]

Diana did call Oliver Hoare many times but I think there's evidence that a little boy also made tons of calls to Mr. Hoare too.

Charles did have a great deal of problems and according to a very close friend who participated in a documentary about his current wife, he mentioned that Charles was never good with women and only have love for them in his own way. I think he upset his parents and even Princess Anne for throwing for them under the bus. His actions also did a great deal if damage to the royal family.

 

[COUNTESS]

It amazes me that no one said what a miserable husband Charles was. They were not suited to one another, which never bothered Charles because he thought he could have a, totally, separate life from her. Which he did. What ruined the entire thing is that she became from more popular than he. He couldn't stand the competition. He needed the spotlight. The RF thinks they are entitled to it. Too bad, she married a man who had a mistress, continued to have a mistress, although, the Charles myth seems to have taken over and loved a woman more than his wife.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

Oh here we go again. It was all Charles' fault and his jealousy and Camilla. That is the 1992 version of events, since then more has come out that shows Diana wasn't an easy person to get along with. She was a needy person married to a needy man. In the BRF the importance is on the Queen and her heir, they are entitled to that attention more than Diana whose only accomplishment was she was young blonde and pretty.
As for Diana being mistreated who exactly mistreated her and how? If anything it seems she mistreated a couple of people.

 

[Dman]

They all mistreated each other but it's not fair to place all the blame on Diana. She messed up and so did Charles. There was also a great deal of players in the same too.

Picture:
The Wales Family at their country home, Highgrove-
http://indypendentroyalty.tumblr.com/post/57796392107

 

[Ish]

They all mistreated each other but it's not fair to place all the blame on Diana. She messed up and so did Charles. There was also a great deal of players in the same too.

No one is saying that it was all Diana's fault.

Saying that Diana had a mental illness is not saying that it was all Diana's fault, it is simply saying that she had a mental illness. Diana had bulimia. She had depression. She was prone to self harm and very likely could have ended up hurting someone else. She displayed narcissistic tendencies, was selfish, and had to be the centre of attention.

Charles, on the other hand, was also prone to narcissism, although not really in the same way as Diana. Diana wanted to be the centre of attention and would strive to be so, while Charles expected to be the centre of attention simply because he had always been such. He entered into his marriage not because he loved Diana but because he felt obligated to get married and Diana was a woman who met the right qualifications. While this in itself isn't a flaw - many royal and noble marriages have been conducted through such means and ended up very successful - the fact that no one told Diana was a huge flaw. Despite being older than her in a lot of ways Charles was every bit as immature as Diana; he'd been with women before and may have even fallen in love, but he hasn't really ever been with anyone who he could have considered to be a long term partner, and so had never developed a relationship that could lead to marriage. It's very significant that prior to his marriage Charles' longest relationship with a woman was with someone who, in the classic mistress of a Prince scenario, was married to someone else and therefore could never pressure him for marriage.

Another major flaw that both Diana and Charles had was that they showed love and affection in different ways, and neither seems to have made the effort to communicate as much to the other. If you look at pictures of the pair of them in the early years Charles acts similarly around Diana as he now acts around Camilla, but Diana doesn't appreciate it or recognize it for what it's meant to be. Similarly, Diana's way of showing love and affection wasn't one that Charles was comfortable with and as such Charles pulled away while Diana felt neglected and unloved.

Charles' biggest flaw, however, was that he wasn't strong enough to support Diana. Her mental instability was such that she needed someone who could be a source of support and stability for her, and Charles was unable to provide that. He didn't know how to help her and he pulled away from her. Being with her was too much, so he turned to affection in a place where he knew that he could get it. Meanwhile being with Charles wasn't enough for Diana, so she turned to other men in order to find it. Charles was successful, but as Diana's behaviour during the divorce, her relationships with other men, and her relationship with William showed she didn't find the love and support that she needed in her lifetime.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

Did she take pills? I read in one of my books that Diana didn't like taking pills (her set of aristocrats did not). Diana major mental fault was an eating disorder she was not sick with depression because she never miss a royal engagement or look like you do when you depressed. I think her impulsive nature or actions by the heart as she called it instead of the brain was Diana's biggest fault, plus her immaturity. I truly believe if the Diana came in Charles life at 30 instead of 18 she would have been ready for the life with him because she would be mature and worldly.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with this. Yes, it would have helped the marriage if Diana (and Charles) had been more mature, but they had several issues that age and maturity alone would not have solved.

First, they had nothing in common. Unless Diana would have developed an appreciation for polo, country sports, reading, etc... at the age of 30, they still would have had nothing in common. Charles certainly has never lost his enthusiasm for his lifestyle. Second, we know that even by the time that Diana was 30, she had not yet understood the nature of her mental illness, which was also a major obstacle to their happiness.

Finally, Charles was never going to be able to give Diana the level of support that she needed to successfully deal with her mental illness. A spouse of a person with a mental illness has to be patient, understanding, kind, energetic, and firm to help the other person through their episodes. I don't think those traits are in Charles nature.

The bottom line is they just weren't right for each other. They cared for each other, but both of them would have been better off married to different types of people.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

No one is saying that it was all Diana's fault...

As usual, another well written post from Ish. I would add that one of their major problems was that they had nothing in common. Diana knew that Charles had no interest in marrying someone who didn't like country sports. Pretending to be something she wasn't put Diana under a lot of stress, which contributed to her emotional instability in the first couple of years of the marriage.

When Charles realized that they had nothing in common, he didn't make an effort to work with her to develop new interests. I'm not talking about going to rock concerts, but trying experiences that would have been new to both of them and they may have been able to cultivate together. I think he tried, but not very hard.

Also, I'm not sure that Charles didn't tell Diana the reasons that he wanted to marry her. It's possible he did, but he wasn't explicit. Diana has never claimed that during their courtship, Charles was constantly telling her how much he loved and adored her. She assumed he did. I think Charles cared about her and told her that, but I really don't see him going beyond that. Diana had a tendency to hear what she wanted to hear and disregard anything else.

I think it is more likely a major miscommunication, which I agree was Charles's fault. He should have directly and in no uncertain terms explained his confusion and then let her decide what she wanted to do. I still think she would have married him.
.

 

[Mirabel]

Diana did call Oliver Hoare many times but I think there's evidence that a little boy also made tons of calls to Mr. Hoare too.

I believe it was Diana who said the calls were pranks by a little boy; a statement that was later disproved. The calls were found to be made by Diana.

 

[Dman]

No, I think it was proven that a little boy also made calls. It was investigated I believe.

 

[Osipi]

Something just struck me reading over these posts. Yes, there were three in the marriage from the beginning. There was Charles, Diana and the role of The Prince of Wales.

Although they didn't have much in common, its very likely that it was Charles' role of Prince of Wales that most likely caused a lot of stress in the marriage. Should Charles' have been a gentleman farmer, most likely he would have had more time to devote to Diana, more time to grow close as a husband, wife and a family. Instead, his role was planned out months in advance and his days were quite structured as to where he was to be, what he was to wear and the never ending preparations for such engagements. By this time in life, Charles had become accustomed to this lifestyle and most likely expected that Diana understood this. During their courtship, he was away on engagements even a foreign tour. Did Diana really expect anything different after marriage? Diana had a twofold relationship to adjust to coming into the marriage. The one with Charles the man and Charles, The Prince of Wales.

I can see where the role of Prince of Wales would cause a lot of stress in a new marriage. Its even been reported that one of Charles' top men (his name is on the tip of my tongue but its probably in my second cup of coffee) was let go because it was his job to plan and lay out what Charles' wore daily. Diana felt that this was her job as wife and resented this. It is easy to see how a young, insecure, emotionally needy bride would feel left out and neglected. On the other hand, Charles knew what his life was like and believed that Diana understood it and would be supportive.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

You're right Osipi. That would have been a huge part of the problem. They just didn't communicate. They should have gotten counseling before they got married. It would have saved a lot of heartache.

No, I think it was proven that a little boy also made calls. It was investigated I believe.

Could you please give your source? I find it hard to believe that a young boy was able to get access to her private line at Kensington Palace, her mobile phone, and a phone the home of her sister. The police traced the calls to those numbers, as well as the phone booths in the area. The boy could have gotten to the phone booth, but what percentage of the calls were made from the phone booth?
.

 

[nascarlucy]

The couple were very different people who didn't have a lot in common. Prior to marriage their lifestyles were very different even though Diana came from an aristocratic background. If they had grown up with similiar lifestyles or if her life from day one was planned out like Prince Charles's was, the marriage might have been an easier transition but then maybe not. There were other problems that had nothing to do with this.

Their expectations of each other or what they expected out of each other was very different. This was something they never worked out. When they got married, Diana was more or less expected to adapt to what the situation was and since she came from an aristocratic background, perhaps others expected her not to have any problems adjusting or adjusting very quickly. If would be very different if she didn't come from an aristocratic background or wasn't around individuals who were aristocratic or had to learn the ropes.

Prior to Diana dating Prince Charles she could come and go as she pleased for the most part. She didn't have someone who planned her day or a person who picked out the clothing or laid out the clothing she wanted to wear that day This could be why she saw an employee doing this as unnecessary or something that she could do for her husband.

Prince Charles never had that option growing up (eveything in his life was planned out and people were aware of what he was doing every waking moment or others on the outside where trying to figure out what he was doing where he was going or who he was dating).

Prior to dating Prince Charles I don't recall seeing Princess Diana's name in the tabloids or pictures of her going to the grocery store or walking down the street. I don't think her name was mentioned until she was linked to Prince Charles.

Once she was linked to Prince Charles walking down the street enjoying the day or going to the grocery store alone was no longer an option for various reasons. To her, this would not be a big deal (from some people it might) as she liked the limelight.

 

[Mermaid1962]

AFAIK the only person who said this was Diana during the Panorama interview. What reason would any young boy have for calling Hoare that many times? I believe that Diana did lie about things, for example the "throwing down the stairs" that wasn't (according to Sarah Bradford's sources). She was a woman who bragged on video with Peter Settleton about slapping her father because he married Raine. She pushed Raine down some stairs as well. For some reason, even knowing these things, I find Diana fascinating. I've come to the conclusion that part of her was always that six-year-old girl who heard her mother walking away. Like a child or teenager, she didn't consider long-term consequences. The remarkable thing about her is that she did manage to do some good work and keep up public appearances in spite of everything. BTW I'm not a fan of Prince Charles. My feelings towards him have softened quite a bit since the mid-90s, but I generally don't find him very interesting. His book with Jonathan Dimbleby and the accompanying video were both huge mistakes.

Diana did call Oliver Hoare many times but I think there's evidence that a little boy also made tons of calls to Mr. Hoare too.

 

[Warren]

OK, time for some facts, as far as we know them...

There was a little boy involved, but not as the mystery caller.
The little boy was instead the initial source of the story about the hundreds of phone calls made to Dianne Hoare (not Oliver) [when Mrs Hoare answered the phone there would be a long silence or the caller would hang up].
The boy was a schoolmate of one of the Hoare children.
I assume that in turn the boy recounted to his parents what he had been told, and the rest is history.
When the story broke, Diana's response was to accuse Charles and one of his staff members of fabricating/leaking it.

Warren, could you give me more info about this? I don't remember Sarah's first official engagement, and I'd like to look up the details. Thanks.

Somewhat discordant to this thread, but in brief...
Soon after the marriage of the Duke and Duches of York Diana unexpectedly announced to her Equerry and Private Secretary that she wanted to do some more engagements and gave them three dates when she specifically wanted them to find something for her to do.
It was only after the dates were organised that one of the royal protection officers pointed out that they were the precise dates when the Duchess of York was scheduled to have her first three public engagements.
.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

Thanks, Warren. I remember her trying to blame Charles. I think she also told Richard Kay that she didn't know how to operate a parking meter, much less a phone box (we call them phone booths in the states). I remember that it was ironic that Diana was trying to paint the royal family as out-of-touch, yet she didn't even know how to use a parking meter.

 

[Dman]

Charles and Diana didn't do a great job in covering up their bad actions. It was a bad time for the Wales family and royal family. The Queen has mentioned that those difficult days has mellowed with the times and I don't think they are hanging on to those harsh feelings.

 

[Warren]

The only reason I raised it was because you muddied the waters by introducing a young boy as the culprit.
Some historical facts are not open to re-interpretation or re-writing and as an Administrator I believe it does the Forums and its members a disservice if misstatements of fact stand uncorrected.

 

[Dman]

Picture:
Charles & Diana Enjoying Each Other's Company at a Polo Match-
My Current Problem • diana and charles

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

Why the heck would a little boy call a grown man and his wife numerous times? Even when I was young and prank calle people it wasn't the same number a hundred times. Kids eventually get bored go out and play or go play Atari or Nintendo (this was the 80s right).

 

[sirhon11234]

You're right Osipi. That would have been a huge part of the problem. They just didn't communicate. They should have gotten counseling before they got married. It would have saved a lot of heartache.

Thank you for saying that. I've wondered how often did Charles and Diana actually sit down together and talk and listen to each other. I believe had they done this so many problems would have been avoided and they could have ended their marriage in a far more respectable way i.e Alexandra & Jocheim.
Sadly from what I read they we were only able to do this once the marriage was dissolved. At least they made their peace.
I am enjoying this balanced discussion on Charles and Diana. No more of the back & white Charles as the victim & Diana as the villain or Diana as the victim & Charles as the villain.

 

[Mermaid1962]

I agree. They spent so much time talking to others about their problems and writing letters about their problems but it appears little time talking to each other. I don't think that either of them could give or accept loving, well-meant criticism.

Thank you for saying that. I've wondered how often did Charles and Diana actually sit down together and talk and listen to each other.

 

[Dman]

Charles & Diana had their problems but all wasn't that bad (early on) in their marriage. They shared love, laughter, duty and they enjoyed raising their boys.

Charles enjoyed teasing her and they enjoyed taking to the dance floor when they could. I remember the story about the Wales's having dinner with The Queen and rest of the family and Diana used to get up and run over to Charles's seat, sit in his lap and kiss him. Everyone liked seeing them play around. The couple also liked going skiing with the boys. They had a big snow fight several times and I think they may even hit some photographers with snowballs.

Picture:
Charles & Diana playing around with fake boobs-
http://royaltyspeaking.tumblr.com/post/47498993566/nothing-upsets-harry-more-say-friends-than

Well, Charles & Diana's marriage was hitting a brick wall, they had a great deal of pressure on them within the royal institution and the British tabloids was on their backs like white on rice. It all turned into a bad situation and most likely it wasn't easy for both parties to figure their way out through the mess. It was a sad situation but it happens.

I too believe Diana & Charles loved each other but I think it was best for them not be married anymore. It happens to some marriages. They were actually able to be civil with each other after their divorce and I think they were okay with that. Although I think Diana's one true love was Charles and it drove her mad inside that she couldn't have her husband and father of her children.

 

[Dman]

Picture:
Charles & Diana Cooking-
majestic delight

I think the picture is legit. Charles appears to have both his hands over his chest while Diana is hugging him.

 

[padams2359]

No, that is the end of his sleeve with his arm around her. it is legit.

 

[Roslyn]

Diana has one arm around Charles' shoulder and one around his waist. The two hands in front of Charles' chest are his own.

I have no doubt these two had some very happy times in the first five years of their marriage and I am sure Charles remembers these times fondly.