Charles and Diana

[WreathOfLaurels]

I dunno but the choice of reading material certainly did not help

 

[Pranter]

Uh...I can't imagine an honeymoon where the groom and I discussed heavy stuff like Jung and I like 'heavy stuff for discusion'.....she was barely 20....and not exactly a scholar! I would of thought for a man in his early 30's having a attractive bride, traveling around, would have kept him engaged enough anyway.


LaRae

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

Jeeze you can't have sex 24/7 for 5 weeks, eventually you have to talk to each other. I don't see this as Charles trying to educate her I see it as him wanting to share his interests with her.

 

[Dman]

She didn't upstage Charles with hairdoes, but she did put her hair up, when she was attending parliament with the queen which was seen as a blunder. Her upstaging Chrles took place later in the marriage when she had learned to play the media better. She scheduled appearances to clash with his, and take away from his press attention. She turned her head when he tried to kiss her. She was photographed with the kids when he was doing a dull engagement..

The media is what made a big deal about Diana's hairdo during the opening of parliament. The Queen didn't care about it.

I think it's totally unfair for people to punish Diana, because she was a young and attractive woman. She couldn't control that. What the media did to her is pretty much the same thing the media is doing to today's young princesses. It's only that today's princesses have husbands that don't mind the media's interest in their glamorous wives.

 

[Curryong]

Or Queens. It was said that a crowd of photographers were once baying for Maxima as she and King Willem-Alexander were leaving a building after an engagement. The King left ahead of his wife, but just laughed. "Here you are, gentlemen," he said. "Here she is!" as she appeared behind him. And Maxima is known to have enjoyed tremendous popularity in the Netherlands since her marriage. There was none of that with Charles, though, he was just a very insecure character and his reaction to the media and crowds loving his wife proved it.


The incident of Diana turning her head away from Charles's kiss occured at a prize giving at Jaipur after a polo match on the tour of India in 1992.

Dickie Arbiter, the Wales's Press Officer could remember the Prince remaining adamant a little while before that he would not be joining Diana to see the Taj Mahal, as he wanted to attend a conference in Bangalore instead.

By now the couple very much disliked being in each other's company and he probably felt the photo op at such an iconic symbol would be hypocritical. According to Arbiter he somewhat regretted his decision afterwards.

Diana didn't want to give out the prizes at a polo match at which Charles was competing when the couple were together again in the city of Jaipur but was persuaded to. Charles's team won and up he trotted to get the cup.

He didn't kiss her when Diana handed it over but then realised the PR mistake and turned back to do so. Whereupon Diana, probably sick and tired of the whole charade, turned her head.

The media got their picture but apparently Charles and his entourage were furious that Diana wasn't 'playing the game'.

 

[WreathOfLaurels]

Agreed, even William is proud of Catherine. To be fair Charles wasn't expecting Diana to become Princess Superstar when he married her and he was pleased initially with her popularity. The later jealousy was part of a broader mid-life crisis for Charles, as it was dawning on him that it was going to be a long time until he became king and was trying to make a role for himself in the meantime with his causes, but was receiving negative reactions for it. Tina Brown makes the point that Charles began to get more outrageous with his public utterances at this time (for example, the Monstrous Carbuncle speech) to compete against Diana in the press.

 

[WreathOfLaurels]

The books were mostly Jung and Laurens Van Der Post, which might be the least erotic reading material imaginable. If had brought something more stimulating, like D H Lawrence or Shirley Conran that would have been fine - he could have at least have brought some Freud.

 

[Pranter]

Jeeze you can't have sex 24/7 for 5 weeks, eventually you have to talk to each other. I don't see this as Charles trying to educate her I see it as him wanting to share his interests with her.

No one said they should...however they could go do things together as well...it's always sounded to me like he was off doing whatever (reading etc) while she was socializing with the staff and service members on the boat (during that phase)...not a normal way to spend a honeymoon.

It does appear that during the Balmoral part of the honeymoon they spent time together around the estate.



LaRae

 

[Dman]

No one said they should...however they could go do things together as well...it's always sounded to me like he was off doing whatever (reading etc) while she was socializing with the staff and service members on the boat (during that phase)...not a normal way to spend a honeymoon.

It does appear that during the Balmoral part of the honeymoon they spent time together around the estate.



LaRae

It was an odd honeymoon. I think they entertained some dignitaries on the royal yacht too. Although, going off reading and painting is what Charles do on his time off. Probably not what a young woman have in mind when on her honeymoon, lol.

 

[Pranter]

It was an odd honeymoon. I think they entertained some dignitaries on the royal yacht too. Although, going off reading and painting is what Charles do on his time off. Probably not what a young woman have in mind when on her honeymoon, lol.

Yeah and I realize it wasn't a 'normal' honeymoon (although William and Kate seemed to manage that) ..even so outside the meeting of dignitaries they could of had a more normal one doing things together.

I can attest to you that it would not of been what a young woman would of had in mind (the groom off reading and painting and writing letters) when she thought about honeymoons.





LaRae

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

No one said they should...however they could go do things together as well...it's always sounded to me like he was off doing whatever (reading etc) while she was socializing with the staff and service members on the boat (during that phase)...not a normal way to spend a honeymoon.

It does appear that during the Balmoral part of the honeymoon they spent time together around the estate.



LaRae

He was trying to do something with her; share his interests.with her and she could do the same. Reading and painting to Charles is interesting and is no different than a couple going on honeymoon in France going to a museum if that is what one of them finds interesting. Or some strange couples would like tongontonthe catacombs. Nothing is wrong with Charles wanting to read.

 

[Pranter]

He was trying to do something with her; share his interests.with her and she could do the same. Reading and painting to Charles is interesting and is no different than a couple going on honeymoon in France going to a museum if that is what one of them finds interesting. Or some strange couples would like tongontonthe catacombs. Nothing is wrong with Charles wanting to read.

Never said there was anything wrong with Charles reading (it's just one more of the things that they did separately). The appearance has always been that they were on two very separate honeymoons for the most part.

Of course if had taken a longer courtship I don't think they would of been on a honeymoon.



LaRae

 

[Roslyn]

It was an odd honeymoon. I think they entertained some dignitaries on the royal yacht too. Although, going off reading and painting is what Charles do on his time off. Probably not what a young woman have in mind when on her honeymoon, lol.

What else were they going to do when they were stuck on a boat for two (or - even worse - three?) weeks. What can you do? Read, write, paint, read, eat, watch video-tapes, talk, sunbake, get bored out of your brain, read some more, write some more, canoodle, etc., drink to escape the boredom. I am assuming the honeymoon plans weren't a complete surprise to Diana. I wonder what she expected they would be doing on the boat? Did they ever discuss it? Did Diana have any input?

I understand they actually played a bit of deck hockey - Charles was nicknamed "Crazy Horse" because of his aggressive tactics in deck hockey - with the crew and officers and socialised with them. They also had picnics alone ashore at different places, but most of the time they were surrounded by strangers. A very odd honeymoon, IMO. Prince Charles and Princess Diana unseen honeymoon pictures on Royal Yacht Britannia | Daily Mail Online

 

[MARG]

Uh...I can't imagine an honeymoon where the groom and I discussed heavy stuff like Jung and I like 'heavy stuff for discusion'.....she was barely 20....and not exactly a scholar! I would of thought for a man in his early 30's having a attractive bride, traveling around, would have kept him engaged enough anyway.


LaRae

That dastardly cradle snatcher actually expected her to be able to read. How dare he!

Agreed, even William is proud of Catherine. To be fair Charles wasn't expecting Diana to become Princess Superstar when he married her and he was pleased initially with her popularity. The later jealousy was part of a broader mid-life crisis for Charles, as it was dawning on him that it was going to be a long time until he became king and was trying to make a role for himself in the meantime with his causes, but was receiving negative reactions for it. Tina Brown makes the point that Charles began to get more outrageous with his public utterances at this time (for example, the Monstrous Carbuncle speech) to compete against Diana in the press.

Jealousy? Mid-life crisis? Given to outrageous public utterances?

Annoyed and even angered by her campaign to upstage him, perhaps. Bit early for a mid-life crisis though. His "Monstrous Carbuncle" speech hardly qualified as outrageous and TBH he called it right! But I suppose those of 'The Emperor's New Clothes' pursuasion may have found it quite shocking!

 

[Pranter]

Being able to read had nothing to do with what I'm talking about.....and she was barely 20. Stating a fact.

I don't know why you want to create strawmen.


LaRae

 

[WreathOfLaurels]

Charles was attempting to be provocative on purpose when he made speeches like the carbuncle speech, as well as other speeches that the then government of Margaret Thatcher saw as challenges to their policies on matters like youth employment, the inner cities, agriculture, and urban development. Diana wasn't trying to upstage him in the beginning - that came later when he went back to Camilla. The fact that this was tied to his conflicted feelings of Diana's popularity and desire to be seen as a figure of national importance is also well documented by both Charles biographers and Diana's as well as a number of royal and political observers of the period.

 

[MARG]

Being able to read had nothing to do with what I'm talking about.....and she was barely 20. Stating a fact.

I don't know why you want to create strawmen.


LaRae

Nothing straw about it. I am merely sick of hearing Diana was barely/only 20. Twenty year olds at university study philosophy and many of or about that age discussed 'Life, the universe and everything'.

As to her being "not exactly a scholar", whatever else she was, Diana was not thick, poorly educated perhaps but a university degree is not a measure of a superior intellect, merely a superior education.

 

[Dman]

There's nothing wrong with Charles wanting to read guys. It's just sometimes some people expect different things out of a honeymoon that's all.

They did have some fun though. There are some very romantic and funny pictures of them on their honeymoon. Stuff we weren't suppose to see.

 

[royal rob]

Nothing straw about it. I am merely sick of hearing Diana was barely/only 20. Twenty year olds at university study philosophy and many of or about that age discussed 'Life, the universe and everything'.



As to her being "not exactly a scholar", whatever else she was, Diana was not thick, poorly educated perhaps but a university degree is not a measure of a superior intellect, merely a superior education.

You might be sick of hearing it but she was only 20 and I am sick of hearing poor Charles she took the attention away from him. What a pathetic excuse for Charles disgusting behavior. So glad we have a Queen who is enjoying a long life. I'm over and out too much sadness in the world at the moment to dig over and over the same things all the time.


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[WreathOfLaurels]

Exactly, Charles just needed to suck it up and accept it - at least he has not stopped as low as being jealous of his children

 

[Jacknch]

Let's stop bickering please. Let's also avoid off-topic elements to the thread, such as Charles and Diana's individual parenting style. Thank you.

 

[Mermaid1962]

Yes, Charles said as much in the interview he and Diana did with Alastair Burnet. I'm not sure that Charles realizes that what he says can affect individuals' careers and livelihoods.

Charles was attempting to be provocative on purpose when he made speeches like the carbuncle speech,

 

[Denville]

Jeeze you can't have sex 24/7 for 5 weeks, eventually you have to talk to each other. I don't see this as Charles trying to educate her I see it as him wanting to share his interests with her.

Exactly. No matter how passionate you are, sex isn't going to go on for 12 hours a day for more than a week or 2 at best. He believed that the honeymoon was a time when they could relax and be together and share their interests as well as making love. Yes they had the ROyal Navy with them and had to spend a bit of time with them, but they ahd a very long honeymoon compared iwht most people. THey were hardly going to be locked up in their cabin alone making love for 3 or 4 weeks...

No one said they should...however they could go do things together as well...it's always sounded to me like he was off doing whatever (reading etc) while she was socializing with the staff and service members on the boat (during that phase)...not a normal way to spend a honeymoon.

It does appear that during the Balmoral part of the honeymoon they spent time together around the estate.



LaRae

well I think that he hoped they would read together and enjoy that, but Diana didn't enjoy the same books as he did, so it got very soon that he was reading and she was off chatting to the sailors.

Yeah and I realize it wasn't a 'normal' honeymoon (although William and Kate seemed to manage that) ..even so outside the meeting of dignitaries they could of had a more normal one doing things together.

I can attest to you that it would not of been what a young woman would of had in mind (the groom off reading and painting and writing letters) when she thought about honeymoons.





LaRae

How do you know? Some young women might have enjoyed it.. if they had shared their husbands interests.. unfortunately Diana did not really Share C's interests.

 

[Curryong]

^ Nor did Charles really accept hers. I don't know why Diana was supposed to mould herself or be moulded into sharing all Charles's private interests. (I'm not talking about their public life together.)

Yes, he was older and was Prince of Wales. Does that mean that it was mandatory for her to become interested in Jung and Van der Post (who incidentally was later unmasked as a fake. A bit like paedophile Jimmy Savile, another revolting person whose advice Charles sought. I have to say, these two say a lot about Charles's judgement.)

in the meantime, as I've said before, it was perfectly OK for Charles to ignore Diana's close friends (probably dismissed as lightweights! How did he know?) expecting her to adopt his friends as hers, (people in some cases thirty years her senior) show no interest in her liking for modern music, (he's the only person I've ever known who went to a Michael Jackson concert in suit and tie) and refuse her a tennis court at Highgrove because- because, because,- he wasn't interested in tennis and didn't want it himself.

Charles has always been old for his age while Diana was young for hers. He wanted a wife who would fit into his already well-ordered world, whether on Britannia or not.

It never seemed to Charles, from my reading about their courtship, that he expected his well-oiled life to change much in any way after marriage, except that he would have a partner who would fit in and they would eventually have children who would also fit in --- with him.

 

[Dman]

^ Nor did Charles really accept hers. I don't know why Diana was supposed to mould herself or be moulded into sharing all Charles's private interests. (I'm not talking about their public life together.)

Yes, he was older and was Prince of Wales. Does that mean that it was mandatory for her to become interested in Jung and Van der Post (who incidentally was later unmasked as a fake. A bit like paedophile Jimmy Savile, another revolting person whose advice Charles sought. I have to say, these two say a lot about Charles's judgement.)

in the meantime, as I've said before, it was perfectly OK for Charles to ignore Diana's close friends (probably dismissed as lightweights! How did he know?) expecting her to adopt his friends as hers, (people in some cases thirty years her senior) show no interest in her liking for modern music, (he's the only person I've ever known who went to a Michael Jackson concert in suit and tie) and refuse her a tennis court at Highgrove because- because, because,- he wasn't interested in tennis and didn't want it himself.

Charles has always been old for his age while Diana was young for hers. He wanted a wife who would fit into his already well-ordered world, whether on Britannia or not.

It never seemed to Charles, from my reading about their courtship, that he expected his well-oiled life to change much in any way after marriage, except that he would have a partner who would fit in and they would eventually have children who would also fit in --- with him.

He's got that kind of wife now though.

 

[Curryong]

Yes, in their 60's after two broken marriages impacting on four children, he and Camilla are happy, though Camilla does escape to her own home at times.

Nevertheless, Charles was only 32 when he married. An old 32, yes, but nevertheless a person's friendships, attitudes, mode of life etc shouldn't be fixed in stone at that age in the way that I believe Charles's were, due to his Royal upbringing. He's never seemed to me to be a man happy and comfortable with many aspects of modern life.

Bottom line is though --Charles and Diana were chalk and cheese. Should never never have wed.

 

[Roslyn]

He's got that kind of wife now though.

Yes. I don't think it was really an unreasonable expectation on Charles' part. His mother and father and his grandparents had that sort of relationship too, as far as I know. Diana did attend a number of house parties at Balmoral and seemed to fit into that sort of life and I think she went out of her way to give the impression she would fit in very nicely.

She did not have to share his specific topics of interest to be able to enjoy his company. They could have sat together with her reading history or poetry, or taken an interest in photography or some such quiet activity. I don't think she was remotely interested in the philosophical topics that interested Charles. I doubt she listened when he wanted to talk about it.

I get the impression Diana wasn't very keen on her own company and didn't have any hobbies she enjoyed doing quietly on her own at home. Diana wanted a lot of attention and she wanted to busy herself with other people. That's fine, but such a person is not a good fit for a man who likes his own company and enjoys country life and gardening and other interests he can enjoy on his own.

I remember reading in one of the biographies of Diana's last weeks that she got home from a holiday somewhere or other and had two weeks to fill in before the boys came home from wherever they were and she couldn't bear to be at home alone, and needed to go somewhere with other people for those two weeks, so she contacted the Fayads and arranged to spend the time with them.

I don't think either of them should have had to change. I think they should never have married in the first place because they were incompatible on a basic level.

Bottom line is though --Charles and Diana were chalk and cheese. Should never never have wed.

Snap!

 

[MARG]

You might be sick of hearing it but she was only 20 and I am sick of hearing poor Charles she took the attention away from him. What a pathetic excuse for Charles disgusting behavior. So glad we have a Queen who is enjoying a long life. I'm over and out too much sadness in the world at the moment to dig over and over the same things all the time.

My point is that Diana was not a child nor was she stupid. She was 20 when she married but, like everyone else, she aged and yet it is as though she is preserved for eternity as a not too bright child bride.

She was smart and she learned fast and, love or loathe their behaviour later in their marriage, at least when she and Charles married, there was love and there was hope and there was William and then Harry. That the gilt rubbed off the gingerbread is a sad note in history, but it was not always that way. We need to remember that.

 

[Curryong]

Yes, there was love at the beginning, though I suppose we can argue about the depth of it on Charles's part. However, there was also a large age gap, not many interests in common from the beginning, and, IMO there was a basic incompatibility in their personalities, ways of looking at the world etc, and it wasn't long before that showed itself. They both adored their sons which is great, and I do think that kept them together for a long time. Had the marriage been childless there would have been an unofficial separation within a few years of the wedding, IMO.

 

[Dman]

It was fate that the two married. Our life is already planned for us. It was meant for Charles and Diana to come into each other's life, even though it was only for a season. You really can't say they shouldn't have married. It wasn't all that bad of a marriage either. Sure you can say, the later years were crazy, but I know those early years were filled with love and laughter and two beautiful kids came out of it.