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  #3161  
Old 04-20-2020, 03:33 PM
Aristocracy
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by US Royal Watcher View Post
I don't think Charles ever admitted he didn't love Diana - that was a conclusion drawn by Jonathan Dimbleby. I think Marg is correct, he besotted with her. She was certainly attractive and appeared to have a pleasant, easy going personality. He also thought they had a lot in common and would enjoy being with each other. I also disagree that Diana was in love with Charles. If he had not been the Prince of Wales, she never would have gotten involved with him.

I haven't looked the Morton book for a while, but it seems to me that Diana acknowledged that Charles did not talk about love a very much - which was a red flag if that is what she wanted. The problem was that Charles could not marry just for love - he had to marry someone who was able and willing to handle everything that went with being Princess of Wales. I don't buy that he couldn't have married someone with a past, but there were many other restrictions. He couldn't have married someone who didn't have the ability to successfully interact with a wide variety of people, who would undertake ceremonial duties, no matter how they were feeling. Diana didn't get that he had a lot of things to consider when choosing a wife, not just love.



I agree that it would have been difficult, but it was possible for him to pull out of the engagement. It wasn't against the law, he just would have had to endure a huge public backlash. The same with the divorce. They should have insisted on it and gone forward. Again, very difficult but preferable to what actually happened.
Charles said whatever in love means in that interview. He did not say yes I am very much in love. He told DImbleby in a series of interviews which was research for the book the Prince of Wales, he preferred Camilla when he married Diana. That does not equate "love" to me. Diana told Morton she said I love you after she accepted CHarles proposal and he still said whatever in love means. I think Charles was attracted to Diana and flattered she was besotted with him which also to me does not equate love.

Diana should have been given in clear language what was expected of her. Charles could have also tipped her off about his wanting Camilla in his life.

Charles seemed to be evasive about telling her he loved her which is a really bad sign. Diana thought he loved her but I think it was just more like his being attracted to her. Diana could have thought well he's marrying me so that's a sign of love.

Diana was a romantic young woman and at 19 it must have been overwhelming that an older man courted her. I do think she loved him. If she did not she may well have had an easier time of it and maybe not so hurt when she saw that he was in touch with Camilla. IMO anyway. Diana was considered a "catch" she was from an blue blooded aristo family and of royal descent, young and attractive and she liked children.
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  #3162  
Old 04-20-2020, 03:35 PM
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Sorry - meant to respond privately
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  #3163  
Old 04-20-2020, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by MARG View Post
I have always been intrigued by the way we see age. My parents had a 15 year age difference and my mother was 19 when she married. Age is not a factor, people are.

Charles was besotted by his you bride and she enjoyed playing the engenue. At face value she "fitted", they were neighbours when she was young and she took tea with both the QM and the Queen. While her "education" was nothing to write home about, she was as 'finished' as any other aristocratic young women incmuding her older sisters and even Camilla. She was self confident enough that she could sit down at the piano at a private gathering and knock out a bit of Rachmaninoff and acquit herself well.

She loved the arts, so did he, she "loved the country", so did he. She loved to travel, mostly they did that on tour. She loved holidays in the sun, they holidayed with the SRF in crystal waters on their yacht rather than walking at Balmoral.

Love was there, compromise was there but Charles was not with her enough. His workload did not allow for them to weekend with Royals at houseparties in Europe, or accompany her to the ballet on a whim. Unlike her father and stepmother, her married sister's and friends, they did not have a sparkling social life. He, like his mother, didn't have time.

She felt she should come first and he was bound by duty and destiny. She decided she wanted to learn how to ride since the BRF were all horse mad. Lessons were arranged, she wanted him to spend time with her, he took her to polo.

The writing was on the wall.

Sadly IMO the writing was on the wall that this pair would likely not be together for a lifetime.
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  #3164  
Old 04-20-2020, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by TLLK View Post
Sadly IMO the writing was on the wall that this pair would likely not be together for a lifetime.
but it wasn't. It was realy considered unthinkable that they would end up divorced. Once they got engaged it was felt thtat this was it, for life. That is why it DID take such a long time for them to go from "being unhappy and leading separate lives" to separation, and then to divorce. It was considered that they simply could not split up.
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  #3165  
Old 04-20-2020, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Sandy345 View Post
Charles said whatever in love means in that interview. He did not say yes I am very much in love. He told DImbleby in a series of interviews which was research for the book the Prince of Wales, he preferred Camilla when he married Diana. That does not equate "love" to me. Diana told Morton she said I love you after she accepted CHarles proposal and he still said whatever in love means. I think Charles was attracted to Diana and flattered she was besotted with him which also to me does not equate love.

Diana should have been given in clear language what was expected of her. Charles could have also tipped her off about his wanting Camilla in his life.

Charles seemed to be evasive about telling her he loved her which is a really bad sign. Diana thought he loved her but I think it was just more like his being attracted to her. Diana could have thought well he's marrying me so that's a sign of love.

Diana was a romantic young woman and at 19 it must have been overwhelming that an older man courted her. I do think she loved him. If she did not she may well have had an easier time of it and maybe not so hurt when she saw that he was in touch with Camilla. IMO anyway. Diana was considered a "catch" she was from an blue blooded aristo family and of royal descent, young and attractive and she liked children.
I think our opinions differ because I don't know that Charles never intended to give up Camilla. Diana made those allegations more than 10 years later during a painful breakup and I have been around enough divorcing couples to know that their side of the story is not always factual. I agree that Charles didn't vow his undying love - which should have been a red flag if that was what she wanted. I think that would have given her pause if it had been anyone else but she overlooked a lot because she wanted to be the Princess of Wales.
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  #3166  
Old 04-20-2020, 04:06 PM
Aristocracy
 
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Diana had jokingly told Prince Philip she already had a title. She never told Morton she wanted to be Princess of Wales above all else. The thing is she said she wanted a happy family life with a husband and children and was encouraged when told there could be no divorce. Her mother Frances told her biographer she had a hands off attitude towards DIana, she had misgivings but said nothing. Camilla and Charles were in touch at the hunts during his marriage to Diana. Charles admitted his feelings for Camilla to Dimbleby and this meshed with Diana's account to Morton. I think Charles as future King would put off any questions that a girlfriend would ask. She had to call him Sir and she could not say things like You never said you loved me. It was not exactly a relationship where she could be informal with her boyfriend. She had to follow protocol. Anna Wallace dropped Charles and spoke out to him nobody treats me that way not even you. But she did not want him back so she felt she could say it.
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  #3167  
Old 04-20-2020, 04:15 PM
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Charles and Diana were said to both have agreed to put up appearances. When they had that famous dance where Diana wore that jeweled headband, they were not getting along. But they did give a good imitation of being happy.
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  #3168  
Old 04-20-2020, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandy345 View Post
Diana had jokingly told Prince Philip she already had a title. She never told Morton she wanted to be Princess of Wales above all else. The thing is she said she wanted a happy family life with a husband and children and was encouraged when told there could be no divorce. Her mother Frances told her biographer she had a hands off attitude towards DIana, she had misgivings but said nothing. Camilla and Charles were in touch at the hunts during his marriage to Diana. Charles admitted his feelings for Camilla to Dimbleby and this meshed with Diana's account to Morton. I think Charles as future King would put off any questions that a girlfriend would ask. She had to call him Sir and she could not say things like You never said you loved me. It was not exactly a relationship where she could be informal with her boyfriend. She had to follow protocol. Anna Wallace dropped Charles and spoke out to him nobody treats me that way not even you. But she did not want him back so she felt she could say it.
I think we are talking about different things. Being in touch with Camilla is very different than continuing a love affair during the first few years of her marriage. I know people who have been able to remain friends with their former boyfriend or girlfriend. Charles obviously loved Camilla more, but that doesn't mean he didn't love Diana. Diana may not have admitted that she wanted to be the princess of wales. But she agreed to marry him despite his lack of romance. The only consistent explanation is that she overlooked that because she wanted his status. Yes, she had a title before her marriage, but she was quite upset when she had to relinquish her HRH.
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  #3169  
Old 04-20-2020, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
but it wasn't. It was realy considered unthinkable that they would end up divorced. Once they got engaged it was felt thtat this was it, for life. That is why it DID take such a long time for them to go from "being unhappy and leading separate lives" to separation, and then to divorce. It was considered that they simply could not split up.

We'll have to agree to disagree as it seemed to be apparent to some of their friends, family and acquaintances that the pair were not well suited for the long term.
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  #3170  
Old 04-20-2020, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by US Royal Watcher View Post
I think we are talking about different things. Being in touch with Camilla is very different than continuing a love affair during the first few years of her marriage. I know people who have been able to remain friends with their former boyfriend or girlfriend. Charles obviously loved Camilla more, but that doesn't mean he didn't love Diana. Diana may not have admitted that she wanted to be the princess of wales. But she agreed to marry him despite his lack of romance. The only consistent explanation is that she overlooked that because she wanted his status. Yes, she had a title before her marriage, but she was quite upset when she had to relinquish her HRH.
Diana didnt' have a title. She had a courtesy title, and that hardly compares to being Princess of Wales and a future queen. I think she did love Charles but it was her own image of Charles that she loved. When she got to know the real man, she found him stuffy and boring and not demonstrative enough. Of course it was a perk to become Princess of Wales, but any girlfriend of Charles' was bound to be aware of that, that if they married, she would have great wealth and social position. Some women I think didn't really want it that badly, because they knew that it would come with stress and restrictions and a lac of privacy...but I don't think that Diana thought that through.
I think that yes Charles had always been friends with Camilla and he still cared for her, and went on being friends with her.. but I think that initially he didn't intend to continue their affair. But when his marriage became unhappy, he turned to her...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TLLK View Post
We'll have to agree to disagree as it seemed to be apparent to some of their friends, family and acquaintances that the pair were not well suited for the long term.
Yes some people did think that..and some commentators noted the differences between them.. there were articles about how he was a graduate and she had had no O levels.. He was 32 and she was 19, she was a nanny and he was... etc etc

But people assumed that either they DID love each other, or that even if the differences resulted in the marriage not working out, they would stay together. Divorce was really NOT supposed to be a possibility... I think by the late 80s, it was pretty obvious that they weren't working out well together, but it was assumed that divorce simply wasn't possible and they would make the best of things.
I don't think any journalists or commenters ever thought it would come to divorce.

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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
She did love walking in the country. That was not at all the issue. I also think if she had been happy, if she and Charles could of connected on common interests (which they really did not have) likely she would of never turned to other pursuits as she did later on.

Catherine doesn't ride, doesn't fish nor does she share Williams's like for motorcycles and that type of thing. There really are no comparisons that need to be made between them.


LaRae
but C and Diana DIDNT have many common interests apart from music. More to the point, they didn't have a common outlook. Diana was young and young for her age. Charles was old fashioned and enjoyed the company of people much older than himself. His preferred romantic partner was his own age. Charles was as Diana put it "very deep" and a thinking man... but she was not especially thoughtful and operated on instinct.. He was a hard working man with an urge to use his position to "help others and make a difference". At 20 or so, I don't think Diana had any such ideas. She had a kind heart and did charity work but she didn't really have a passion for anything except maybe children. She wasn't a thinker. She ddn't share in Charles' ideas about architechture or history.. She admired him in theory for being so "deep" and "clever" but in practice she found him going on about saving the planet dull and boring...

Will and Kate don't share all the same interests but they have enough in common and have I think a common outlook. For both of them their children and private family life comes first … but although K doesn't care much for country sports, I think she and Will enjoy other sports together.
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  #3171  
Old 04-21-2020, 08:53 AM
Aristocracy
 
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
Diana didnt' have a title. She had a courtesy title, and that hardly compares to being Princess of Wales and a future queen. I think she did love Charles but it was her own image of Charles that she loved. When she got to know the real man, she found him stuffy and boring and not demonstrative enough. Of course it was a perk to become Princess of Wales, but any girlfriend of Charles' was bound to be aware of that, that if they married, she would have great wealth and social position. Some women I think didn't really want it that badly, because they knew that it would come with stress and restrictions and a lac of privacy...but I don't think that Diana thought that through.
I think that yes Charles had always been friends with Camilla and he still cared for her, and went on being friends with her.. but I think that initially he didn't intend to continue their affair. But when his marriage became unhappy, he turned to her...
She was besotted and in the engagement interview said he was amazing.She like many other woman would be put off about being handed books to read on the honeymoon. That used to be a sort of joke present for honeymooners, handing them a book to take along.

CHarles continued his affair with Camilla after she married and before Diana. They were in touch with each other and he did not entirely cut off contact.
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  #3172  
Old 04-21-2020, 02:20 PM
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For several years now, the Royal Forums has not encouraged discussion on the Charles/Diana/Camilla "triangle' and, indeed, it is off-topic. Please refrain from discussing Camilla in this thread. Thank you.
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  #3173  
Old 04-21-2020, 03:21 PM
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Diana didnt' have a title. She had a courtesy title, and that hardly compares to being Princess of Wales and a future queen. I think she did love Charles but it was her own image of Charles that she loved. When she got to know the real man, she found him stuffy and boring and not demonstrative enough. Of course it was a perk to become Princess of Wales, but any girlfriend of Charles' was bound to be aware of that, that if they married, she would have great wealth and social position. Some women I think didn't really want it that badly, because they knew that it would come with stress and restrictions and a lac of privacy...but I don't think that Diana thought that through.
I think that yes Charles had always been friends with Camilla and he still cared for her, and went on being friends with her.. but I think that initially he didn't intend to continue their affair. But when his marriage became unhappy, he turned to her...



Yes some people did think that..and some commentators noted the differences between them.. there were articles about how he was a graduate and she had had no O levels.. He was 32 and she was 19, she was a nanny and he was... etc etc

But people assumed that either they DID love each other, or that even if the differences resulted in the marriage not working out, they would stay together. Divorce was really NOT supposed to be a possibility... I think by the late 80s, it was pretty obvious that they weren't working out well together, but it was assumed that divorce simply wasn't possible and they would make the best of things.
I don't think any journalists or commenters ever thought it would come to divorce.


but C and Diana DIDNT have many common interests apart from music. More to the point, they didn't have a common outlook. Diana was young and young for her age. Charles was old fashioned and enjoyed the company of people much older than himself. His preferred romantic partner was his own age. Charles was as Diana put it "very deep" and a thinking man... but she was not especially thoughtful and operated on instinct.. He was a hard working man with an urge to use his position to "help others and make a difference". At 20 or so, I don't think Diana had any such ideas. She had a kind heart and did charity work but she didn't really have a passion for anything except maybe children. She wasn't a thinker. She ddn't share in Charles' ideas about architechture or history.. She admired him in theory for being so "deep" and "clever" but in practice she found him going on about saving the planet dull and boring...

Will and Kate don't share all the same interests but they have enough in common and have I think a common outlook. For both of them their children and private family life comes first … but although K doesn't care much for country sports, I think she and Will enjoy other sports together.

While the Cambridges obviously have hobbies and interests that they do together, they also have some that the other isn't interested in much like many married couples.


Unlike the PoW and late Diana, Princess of Wales though, they did have an established friendship prior to dating which seems to have been the stable foundation for their relationship.
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Old 04-21-2020, 03:34 PM
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I think unfortunately, Charles mentors ( Mountbatten and the Queen Mother) had Edwardian outlooks which in the 20th century was not a good thing. Diana was 19, he was her first love and she had a modern outlook. With Mountbatten as her mentor also maybe Amanda could have been instructed in the Edwardian outlook and seen eye to eye with Charles.. Once Mountbatten died, she refused Charles proposal.
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Old 04-21-2020, 04:17 PM
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While the Cambridges obviously have hobbies and interests that they do together, they also have some that the other isn't interested in much like many married couples.


Unlike the PoW and late Diana, Princess of Wales though, they did have an established friendship prior to dating which seems to have been the stable foundation for their relationship.
True most couples don't have totally similar interests, and some couples don't seem to the outsider to have anything in common at all but their marriages work. But generally I think that its good to have a reasonable amount in common. Will and Kate lived in a shared house as friends, if I recall, before they became involved...so they had a bette chance to get to know each other's ways.
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  #3176  
Old 04-21-2020, 05:44 PM
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Yes and they also shared a major (art history) for about a term before William changed to Geography. Along with that they also lived in the same residence hall their first year, later moving into a house with other friends their second year. So they unlike Charles and Diana, had more of a shared history as St. Andrew's students.


It's unfortunate that Charles and Diana who both had misgivings about their relationship, didn't choose to end it before he proposed.
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Old 04-21-2020, 05:56 PM
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Yes and they also shared a major (art history) for about a term before William changed to Geography.


It's unfortunate that Charles and Diana who both had misgivings about their relationship, didn't choose to end it before he proposed.
but they weren't going to. Diana wanted to marry Charles. He wanted to get married, because he felt it was time and there was pressure. I don't believe that a longer relationship would have made any difference.
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  #3178  
Old 04-21-2020, 06:55 PM
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Another trouble was that DIana had to move to BP to stay in an apartment there. She felt isolated. I wonder if she would have felt freer to walk away if she had not been living there.
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  #3179  
Old 04-21-2020, 09:11 PM
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but they weren't going to. Diana wanted to marry Charles. He wanted to get married, because he felt it was time and there was pressure. I don't believe that a longer relationship would have made any difference.

No but if the couple had realized that they had too little in common and different views and attitudes towards subjects, they might have ended it before an engagement was announced.


Yes both wanted to marry, but with their misgivings it would have been better to stop dating rather than to go forward with an engagement.
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Old 04-22-2020, 05:14 AM
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No but if the couple had realized that they had too little in common and different views and attitudes towards subjects, they might have ended it before an engagement was announced.


Yes both wanted to marry, but with their misgivings it would have been better to stop dating rather than to go forward with an engagement.
Obviously, but IMO that wasn't goig ot happen. They both had agendas and emotional needs that were driving them towards marriage. There was pressure from outside, the press and the RF both in their different ways were pushing them. I think the RF did believe (correctly in a way) that if Charles dallied much longer, there "would not be anyone left".. and he'd end up single at 38 or 40, but still looking for a suitable Protestant virgin...
And the Press had had their time of stories about C's dating life and felt that there was money to be made with "Charles as a married man, with kids and a beautiful charismatic wife."

I think that Charles didn't at first realise that Diana wasn't the country girl nor that she was a lot more complex than she seemed at first glance. But I believe if they had dated for longer, Diana would have continued to convince herself and him that she was into the same things and reality would not have cut in until they were married. living together doesn't reduce the divorce rate, If people really want to get married, they do, and the problems just get pushed underground and surface later. I think with both of them, the misgivings didn't surface till they had become engaged and then they were committed and could not get out of it...
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