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  #2921  
Old 08-03-2018, 04:22 AM
Majesty
 
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Im not going to argue since we clearly think very differently. I cant' imagine how anyone would say that Diana "didn't intend to keep to the marriage..." or that Charles was a "devoted husband..." He was fond of her, he did try with the marriage and he tried to fall in love with her, but he did not succeed.....
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  #2922  
Old 08-03-2018, 04:59 AM
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Diana might have been from a grand family but she was not raised like an Earl's (or back then: heir to an Earl)'s daughter. She grew up in a time of great changes in society and in the public opinion. With party-loving princess Margaret and Lady Annabel Goldsmith (née Vane-Tempest-Steward) some of the formerly rigorous rules of the upper class seem to have vanished, especially for young ladies, while Charles was still raised very traditionally to respect duty and always to behave.



Diana did not have a mother to guide her (she had left her husband and kids when Diana was 6) and she was not interested in academics, so she grew up as the baby sis of her elder sisters under the care of nannies till she was sent to a boarding school at 9. While she stayed at the first one till she was 12, she dropped out of both the next ones, so neither got a good academic basis nor guidance in how to behave as a young debutante as well. (Diana left a Swiss finishing school after 1 term, while eg. Princesse Marie of Denmark went to a Swiss boarding for 4 years). And then Barbara Cartland became her step-grandmother and they are said to have liked each other.



Diana was a quick learner, though, and while she behaved impeccable at Royal engagements, she was in the beginning not self-aware and not used to duty and discipline. While Charles was.


And honestly: that combination in a marriage is very, very difficult, especially when the wife is young and full of romantic dreams while the husband is grown-up and used to a strict and well-planned out life.



Other than Charles, who was interested in psychology and philosophy, Diana had grown-up on reading love stories and fashion magazines. It was clear to her that she would get a rich husband with a secure position in society but I don't think she imagined her own life in the role as a "working wife" of a Royal, rather a life like well-to-do aristocratic ladies lived.



IMHO that's another reason why she was so jealous of Camilla - for Camilla had chosen the comfortable, private life as an upper crust lady, while Diana had to be disciplined, always in time with a schedule not her own, looking beautiful, because the papers reported every bad hair moment, and well informed. That was so not her idea of a good life. And then Camilla took Charles as well... (in Diana's eyes). Not even her two boys gave her a good enough reason not to get back to work.



There used to be a reason why nobles married noble ladies - because these girls had been taught how to run a noble household. In the Middle Ages, the life of the whole folk in the castle and around depended on the knowledge of the Lady of the Manor as chatelaine to manage the estate, so all people could be fed. But noone taught Diana how to live the very public life of a future queen - and she did not want to learn.


That's the main problem, I think. Back in the 1980ties, court life in Britain was still very traditional, while in the Scandie countries young queens ( one a queen regnant, the other two commoners who had married for love) had changed their courts to more life-friendly ways, while keeping the Royal mystery alive. Diana was neither the type nor trained to be a "working Royal" but through her charm and charisma, she geve the papers endless fodder to rave around the "dream princess" - that she simply wasn't. Poor girl - her life was so out of control and the way she experienced it was so far away from the life as her husband saw theirs, a crash was bound to happen. IMHO, of course.
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  #2923  
Old 08-03-2018, 06:26 AM
Majesty
 
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I dont know in what respect Diana was not rasied as an Earl's daughter. She was brought up less formally than the RF, but there was still the old fashioned thing of the children being kept in the nursery, sent to school early etc.
True it was a lot less formal than the RFs' almost Edwardian way of living.
I don't know of Diana dropping out of any scholl except her finishing school.. she didn't do well academically but she actually said that she loved West Heath.. probably because it was a break from the strain of life at home. She didn't stick it at the Swiss finishing school because she felt uncomfortable there, nd probably her parents should have insisted she try it a bit longer...

I don't know why you sieem to be implying that Diana didn't work as a royal princess, she most certainly did.. I think she was a bit resistant, found the public appearnaces esp when the Press were watching her obsessively, very trying. I think she was shy and scared of the crowds at first, until she realised that she had a natural rapport with them...
I agree that she wasn't perhaps that keen to be on public display as she was expected to be, perhaps she had not realised that Royal life would entail a lot of engagements, and she'd have to look good, perform in public, try to learn to give speeches etc. day in day out.. but she did her best and did learn how to do the Job..
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  #2924  
Old 08-03-2018, 07:38 AM
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Of course she worked as a Royal princess but she didn't expect it to be so much work behind the scenes - a lot of people saidf that when she started out, she did not read the background infos prepared for her, did not like the need to coordinate clothes with events, the need to order things for herself instead of simply going shopping by herself, having to be followed around by a Royal protection officer... it was not the life she had thought it would be and that put a strain on her marriage.
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  #2925  
Old 08-03-2018, 07:43 AM
Majesty
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
Of course she worked as a Royal princess but she didn't expect it to be so much work behind the scenes - a lot of people saidf that when she started out, she did not read the background infos prepared for her, did not like the need to coordinate clothes with events, the need to order things for herself instead of simply going shopping by herself, having to be followed around by a Royal protection officer... it was not the life she had thought it would be and that put a strain on her marriage.
I suppose she did't expect as much work behind the scenes, as she did't realise how much preparation there is for a royal visit. But I've never heard that she objected to co ordinating clothes.. She might not want to read briefing notes, she might not like having a police officer, but I find it hard to believe that she didn't undertastnd the "language of clothes"....
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  #2926  
Old 08-03-2018, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Nimue View Post
How do you know? You are stating this as though it is fact. How do you know Charles was 'mildly fond of her'? How do you know that 'she didn't have his love'?

Diana most assuredly had it all. Even Camilla told her she did.

But what exactly did Diana want? The man was doing all he could to satisfy her demands. Nothing seemed to work. The upsets were never ending. What did she want?



How do you know he didn't? The man seemed to be crushed as his marriage did a spiral. How do you know Charles did not love Diana?



'Not right'? How 'not right'? She was destined to be the First Lady of the Land, the Queen. She had reached the social pinnacle of her class. She had a devoted husband, willing to work with her every need. She had privilege, wealth, and to some extent significant influence. Her job was to make her marriage work, professionally and privately. Her job was to respect the man that asked her to marry her, not throw him (and his family) under the bus when she needed barricades to protect her when her marital failures were coming to light.



Again, you accept this notion that she didn't have her husband's love. Where do you get that?

Diana willingly strayed from her marriage quite early. I personally think she always intended to do so, not as in premeditated, but as in that was the only kind of marriage she saw modeled to her. Her parents had lovers on-the-side, so would she. Why not? It was the way it was done. Nothing about this would surprise her.

I am going to suggest something few people consider: that it was Charles that was shocked at the extent to which Diana had no intention of keeping to the marriage. It is Charles who demonstrates a steady one-partner loyalty. It is Diana who demonstrates a very ebullient love life. Diana found Charles boring and tedious and (fill in the blank). She moved on. She did not 'keep' what she had.
To paraphrase your last paragraph. Charles was shocked that Diana -who he'd made his wife, for God's sake, what more did she want?- wasn't prepared to put up and shut up. Of COURSE he "demonstrates a steady one-partner loyalty" -and probably would have done from the start- now he's married to the woman he always wanted to be with. I wonder how many, countless other mistresses, confronted by a wife, have used the phrase "You have everything"? From where Camilla stood at the time, I expect she appeared to.

In response to "how do we know 'she didn't have his love'"? When a client tells me they don't feel loved, it's more than reasonable to believe they're NOT loved. It's not something which is said for fun -or even to elicit sympathy- it's humiliating and painful. It causes feeling of failure and shame. It's also something which will have been lived with for some time before it's admitted.
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  #2927  
Old 08-03-2018, 10:20 AM
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When it comes down to wealth, social status and prestige and a comfortable lifestyle, Diana *did* have it all when she married Charles. The external material things that so many deem to be "having it all".

They had a short courtship and really didn't take the time to build a strong solid foundation to base a marriage on. Both most likely saw that they got along at a good level of compatibility when they did spend time together but to be honest, they only dipped their toes in the water as far as their relationship goes. One thing they most definitely really didn't touch on much was what they expected of each other out of a marriage. Both had entirely different views of what a happy marriage would mean to them. I would go as far as to say they never reached a level of intimacy with each other that happens when you become best friends with another person.

When reality set in after the fairy tale wedding, day to day life with each other proved to be more difficult than they both thought it would be. Their wants and needs were things that the other person couldn't provide or were incapable of providing and the marriage floundered rather than grew stronger.

It happens. Perhaps they should have called it quits a long time before they did and things got so bad that they ended up despising each other. In situations such as this one, sometimes the best way to show love for another person is to let them go and dissolve the relationship. In actuality, it was the wealth, the status and prestige of their positions and the responsibilities and the duties of their lifestyle that created a situation making it even harder to call it quits.

Expectations of how a person should be and act and purport themselves is hard enough when establishing a working marriage let alone one that is so very much in the public eye.
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  #2928  
Old 08-03-2018, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
When it comes down to wealth, social status and prestige and a comfortable lifestyle, Diana *did* have it all when she married Charles. The external material things that so many deem to be "having it all".

very much in the public eye.
I hope that nobody really thinks that that is "having it all." And clearly that's what Camilla meant if she did say something on those lines to diana, "you're rich, famous, well loved, you're a Princess, what more do you want?" But Di didn't "have it all" in the real sense of having a loving husband....
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  #2929  
Old 08-03-2018, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Tsaritsa View Post
To paraphrase your last paragraph. Charles was shocked that Diana -who he'd made his wife, for God's sake, what more did she want?- wasn't prepared to put up and shut up. Of COURSE he "demonstrates a steady one-partner loyalty" -and probably would have done from the start- now he's married to the woman he always wanted to be with. I wonder how many, countless other mistresses, confronted by a wife, have used the phrase "You have everything"? From where Camilla stood at the time, I expect she appeared to.

In response to "how do we know 'she didn't have his love'"? When a client tells me they don't feel loved, it's more than reasonable to believe they're NOT loved. It's not something which is said for fun -or even to elicit sympathy- it's humiliating and painful. It causes feeling of failure and shame. It's also something which will have been lived with for some time before it's admitted.
Well, that' is not to menton the fact that Charles pretty much said he didn't love her. He made it clear in Dimbleby that he had married with misgivings, had wondered if he and Diana had a solid relationship, and while I don't think he actually said the words "I didn't love Diana".. it was pretty clear from his book and interview that he didn't deeply love her when they married and over time, he never developed any kind of solid marital love for her.. In fact, he grew fed up with her, angry and pretty much stopped caring for her, in any real sense after a time.

and yes, he had had his time of sowing wild oats, before he married Diana and then a few years later settled into a steady monogamous relatlionship with Camilla. In his 20s he had numerous short lived affairs, like many people do, before they settle down..
Di didn't hav this time of dating and fidning her feet with men, until she had been married several years.. Even then I don't think she played the field that wildly...
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  #2930  
Old 08-03-2018, 11:24 AM
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I think they should have both said in that engagement interview when asked about love: Whatever that means...
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  #2931  
Old 08-03-2018, 11:30 AM
Majesty
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
I think they should have both said in that engagement interview when asked about love: Whatever that means...
love is a very individual thing, like marriage. What is love, or what suits one couple, in marriage may not work for another couple.
I think Diana had emotions for Charles, she looked up to him, she thougtht he was wonderful.. She believed he would be there for her and that as he coudlnt' divorce, she had security...
Charles had some emotion for diana, but not nearly as much.. and he was more unsure of himself. He found her attractive, charming warm hearted, but he knew tat he cared a lot ofr Camilla, and I think he began to grow more uneasy about diana, and began to feel that he didn't return her love and that perhaps she wasn't as simple and joly as she appeared on the surface
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  #2932  
Old 08-03-2018, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
When it comes down to wealth, social status and prestige and a comfortable lifestyle, Diana *did* have it all when she married Charles. The external material things that so many deem to be "having it all".

They had a short courtship and really didn't take the time to build a strong solid foundation to base a marriage on. Both most likely saw that they got along at a good level of compatibility when they did spend time together but to be honest, they only dipped their toes in the water as far as their relationship goes. One thing they most definitely really didn't touch on much was what they expected of each other out of a marriage. Both had entirely different views of what a happy marriage would mean to them. I would go as far as to say they never reached a level of intimacy with each other that happens when you become best friends with another person.

When reality set in after the fairy tale wedding, day to day life with each other proved to be more difficult than they both thought it would be. Their wants and needs were things that the other person couldn't provide or were incapable of providing and the marriage floundered rather than grew stronger.

It happens. Perhaps they should have called it quits a long time before they did and things got so bad that they ended up despising each other. In situations such as this one, sometimes the best way to show love for another person is to let them go and dissolve the relationship. In actuality, it was the wealth, the status and prestige of their positions and the responsibilities and the duties of their lifestyle that created a situation making it even harder to call it quits.

Expectations of how a person should be and act and purport themselves is hard enough when establishing a working marriage let alone one that is so very much in the public eye.
I think your words about them not talking about their mutual expectations of marriage are very true, Osipi A) because it would never have occurred to 32 year old Charles that 19 year old Diana didn't understand what was expected of her B) 19 year old Diana would never have said anything she thought 32 year old Charles wouldn't want to hear.
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  #2933  
Old 08-03-2018, 04:53 PM
Majesty
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsaritsa View Post
I think your words about them not talking about their mutual expectations of marriage are very true, Osipi A) because it would never have occurred to 32 year old Charles that 19 year old Diana didn't understand what was expected of her B) 19 year old Diana would never have said anything she thought 32 year old Charles wouldn't want to hear.
I don't realy know if that's true. I tink that Charles did think and so did the RF, that Diana understood the duties of a princess and the expectatons about royal marriage.. that if it didn't work out, you just got on with life quietly...
But I think that Diana was too naïve to tailor what she said.. when the interviewer asked "and in love"? Diana said eagerly "of COURSE" while Chalres mulled and said whatever love means....
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  #2934  
Old 08-04-2018, 03:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
I don't realy know if that's true. I tink that Charles did think and so did the RF, that Diana understood the duties of a princess and the expectatons about royal marriage.. that if it didn't work out, you just got on with life quietly...
But I think that Diana was too naïve to tailor what she said.. when the interviewer asked "and in love"? Diana said eagerly "of COURSE" while Chalres mulled and said whatever love means....

Of what use is 'thinking' either personally or collectively that someone else 'knows'. SURELY one checks it out? I think the above proves my point. They didn't talk. Re that uncomfortable interview. From the way Diana's colour heightened, my feeling is that it was something she was totally unprepared for and she was, as you say "too naive to tailor what she said" and following "of COURSE", unless my memory is playing tricks, I THINK there was a very timid -hesitant?- "Yes" in response to his "Whatever love means". WHATEVER love means, I feel certain it DOESN'T mean publicly giving one's bride to be cause to doubt one's feelings for her. I cannot resist the urge to replace that Charles and Diana with a younger Charles and Camilla and rerun the same interview....................
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  #2935  
Old 08-04-2018, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Tsaritsa View Post
Of what use is 'thinking' either personally or collectively that someone else 'knows'. SURELY one checks it out? I think the above proves my point. They didn't talk. Re that uncomfortable interview. From the way Diana's colour heightened, my feeling is that it was something she was totally unprepared for and she was, as you say "too naive to tailor what she said" and following "of COURSE", unless my memory is playing tricks, I THINK there was a very timid -hesitant?- "Yes" in response to his "Whatever love means". WHATEVER love means, I feel certain it DOESN'T mean publicly giving one's bride to be cause to doubt one's feelings for her. I cannot resist the urge to replace that Charles and Diana with a younger Charles and Camilla and rerun the same interview....................
Since I don't know the Waleses personally, everything I say has to be conjecture based on what I've read and heard. So I say things like "I think"... however I don't usually say things unless I do believe that as far as I can ascertain, they are true...(ANyway I thought it was a Forum dictum tht one should say "I think" unless it was soemthig that was absolutely proven..)

I can't remember what she said after the remark "whatever love means", but I think the interviewer was the one who replied... and the interview ended...
Not sure what you mean by "they didn't talk." I don't think they talked about things very intimately, that's true...but I dotn believe that Diana avoided saying anything that she thought might displease him. I think she had an ability to make people feel that she really understood them and agreed/got on with them.. that she was empathising with them. ANd she fooled herself. She problaby really made herself believe that she was enjoying the country lifestyle that Charles liked.. it was only on honeymoon that she stopped fooling herself and her antipathy to it came out. Same with Charles in general.. she probably made him feel at first that she understood him, that she sympathised and agreed with him... It wasn't her consciously "trying to seem agreeable to him" in order to win his affection or the wedding ring..
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  #2936  
Old 08-04-2018, 07:19 AM
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When the interviewer said, ""and I suppose in love?" Diana replied "of course" and rolled her eyes. I have had different speculative interpretations of her verbal and non-verbal reaction, I interpreted her reaction as her thinking the question was ridiculous (IIRC she said as much on the Settelen tapes) and her "of course" followed by an eye roll were sarcastic, but I waffle between interpreting her sarcastic reaction as, to quote Tina Turner, "what's love got to do with it" or "of course we're in love, that's a given."
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  #2937  
Old 08-04-2018, 07:24 AM
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I think it is hard to say. I think she may have instinctively said she was in love because she felt she was in love.. chalres, not being sure, and being proine to agonising… waffled...
And I suppose she may well have thought it was a silly question, but treated it lightly and gracefully....
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  #2938  
Old 08-04-2018, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Queen Claude View Post
When the interviewer said, ""and I suppose in love?" Diana replied "of course" and rolled her eyes. I have had different speculative interpretations of her verbal and non-verbal reaction, I interpreted her reaction as her thinking the question was ridiculous (IIRC she said as much on the Settelen tapes) and her "of course" followed by an eye roll were sarcastic, but I waffle between interpreting her sarcastic reaction as, to quote Tina Turner, "what's love got to do with it" or "of course we're in love, that's a given."

No waffle. I think both are appropriate................I still think there may have been a -stilted? affirming?- "Yes" at the end of the interview.
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  #2939  
Old 08-04-2018, 07:31 AM
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It was rather a personal question, and was put rather awkwardly.. So I can understand that Charles, who was probably by then having misgivings, and who is known to be a self doubting type, and also inclined to try to sound "deep", came out with that clumsy remark...It may have revealed his unease, whereas Diana had less doubts and was even at 20 more skilled at handling the media, came out with the more positive "Of COURSE"....and the eye roll was to lighten the moment...
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  #2940  
Old 08-04-2018, 07:35 AM
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Since I don't know the Waleses personally, everything I say has to be conjecture based on what I've read and heard. So I say things like "I think"... however I don't usually say things unless I do believe that as far as I can ascertain, they are true...(ANyway I thought it was a Forum dictum tht one should say "I think" unless it was soemthig that was absolutely proven..)

I can't remember what she said after the remark "whatever love means", but I think the interviewer was the one who replied... and the interview ended...
Not sure what you mean by "they didn't talk." I don't think they talked about things very intimately, that's true...but I dotn believe that Diana avoided saying anything that she thought might displease him. I think she had an ability to make people feel that she really understood them and agreed/got on with them.. that she was empathising with them. ANd she fooled herself. She problaby really made herself believe that she was enjoying the country lifestyle that Charles liked.. it was only on honeymoon that she stopped fooling herself and her antipathy to it came out. Same with Charles in general.. she probably made him feel at first that she understood him, that she sympathised and agreed with him... It wasn't her consciously "trying to seem agreeable to him" in order to win his affection or the wedding ring..
I may not have put it well, Denville. I was not referring to anything in your post when I mentioned "thinking either personally or collectively". I understand that unless we know people personally, there is little more we CAN do, than "think", but I was actually referring to the possibility that the RF and Charles only THOUGHT, individually and collectively, that Diana was au fait with what being a royal wife entailed, ie assumed rather than checked it out with her.
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