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  #2841  
Old 04-30-2018, 01:23 AM
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Thank you, sndral and Iluvbertie!
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  #2842  
Old 04-30-2018, 01:28 AM
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Diana did not destroy Camilla's marriage, Lady Nimue. Camilla destroyed her own marriage by committing adultery. From this came Charles 'outing' the marriage in the TV programme with Jonathon Dimbleby, mentioning her name before hundreds of thousands of viewers.

Andrew Parker Bowles had not moved in the direction of a divorce until after that programme. There is evidence, (and it's in Penny Junor's biography of Camilla,) that Camilla's friends felt angry on her behalf that Charles had ripped open the facade and 'dropped Camilla in it' so to speak.

The Junor book (pro Camilla) infers that the open marriage situation suited both Camilla and Andrew and they had no wish to divorce. However, after the whole world knew of the Charles/Camilla affair, (and there was apparently a call at Ascot of 'Mr Simpson' in APB's direction) APB couldn't stand the public humiliation and wanted a divorce.
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  #2843  
Old 04-30-2018, 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
So you are basically saying that, when a man cheats on his wife, the wife is the one to be blamed because she was not able to make "her man" fall in love with or be interested in her ? Or she was not understanding and accomodating enough to save her marriage ? In other words, men cheat because their wives are not good enough to them ? How typical !
Talk about misinterpretation and putting words into someone's mouth.
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  #2844  
Old 04-30-2018, 01:56 AM
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Straying a bit from Charles and Diana by pulling in Camilla, but just to respond briefly here.

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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Diana did not destroy Camilla's marriage, Lady Nimue. Camilla destroyed her own marriage by committing adultery. From this came Charles 'outing' the marriage in the TV programme with Jonathon Dimbleby, mentioning her name before hundreds of thousands of viewers.
Camilla's marriage was purring along just fine. It was Diana's outing that caused the tabloids to start to stalk Camilla's house making life miserable for that family, necessitating the divorce. It was the only solution to what had become an intolerable situation.

Charles never spoke Camilla's name publicly that I am aware. He simply admitted that he was unfaithful to his wife "but not until his marriage had irretrievably broken down, they both having tried." Who he may have been unfaithful with when the marriage broke down was not stated. People were left to interpret but because Diana had already sown the seeds there was a leaping to the obvious conclusion that it had been Camilla all along (when it well might not have been).

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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Andrew Parker Bowles had not moved in the direction of a divorce until after that programme. There is evidence, (and it's in Penny Junor's biography of Camilla,) that Camilla's friends felt angry on her behalf that Charles had ripped open the facade and 'dropped Camilla in it' so to speak.

The Junor book (pro Camilla) infers that the open marriage situation suited both Camilla and Andrew and they had no wish to divorce. However, after the whole world knew of the Charles/Camilla affair, (and there was apparently a call at Ascot of 'Mr Simpson' in APB's direction) APB couldn't stand the public humiliation and wanted a divorce.
Admittedly I was alive during that time but not at all following the drama. Too young to care. However, from what I can garner from my reading, the affair was outed by Diana and the problems were already afoot prior. I believe Diana referred to Camilla as the 'Rottweiler'? It is possible that Charles' admission of straying let the hounds lose in a wilder way but the hounds had been baying prior.

Because of Diana's actions that marriage became doomed because of the impossible day-in-day-out craziness the family was subject to. It was their only way out of getting clear of the madness. Diana helped with that. If you will notice all players remain friends to this day. (Includes Anne, APB's former lover).
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  #2845  
Old 04-30-2018, 02:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Diana did not destroy Camilla's marriage, Lady Nimue. Camilla destroyed her own marriage by committing adultery. From this came Charles 'outing' the marriage in the TV programme with Jonathon Dimbleby, mentioning her name before hundreds of thousands of viewers.

Andrew Parker Bowles had not moved in the direction of a divorce until after that programme. There is evidence, (and it's in Penny Junor's biography of Camilla,) that Camilla's friends felt angry on her behalf that Charles had ripped open the facade and 'dropped Camilla in it' so to speak.

The Junor book (pro Camilla) infers that the open marriage situation suited both Camilla and Andrew and they had no wish to divorce. However, after the whole world knew of the Charles/Camilla affair, (and there was apparently a call at Ascot of 'Mr Simpson' in APB's direction) APB couldn't stand the public humiliation and wanted a divorce.
Well said Curryong! I have no problem believing that Camilla vetted Diana and gave her approval thinking Diana would honor the aristocratic code of conduct which was (is?) that after the heir and spare are born and the title secured that each party could go their separate ways as long as they did so discretely. Diana came from a long line of royally connected people, her father was an equerry to the queen. Discretion is their creed, so C&C would have felt that a young woman of 19 would basically follow the crowd. Well, Diana had other ideas. Here is how I imagine it happened:

Charles is being pressured to find a bride and Diana seems a likely candidate (even though apparently her own grandmother, Lady Fermoy, expressed serious doubts about her suitability). Camilla gets to know Diana under the guise of giving her advise and companionship, all the while vetting her suitability. After vetting, Charles proposes (in the PB's garden of all places), taking for granted that Diana will go along with the program. I've often wondered if he might even have been out front with Diana from the beginning, stating that after the heir and the spare they would each be free to do whatever they liked. Diana, being an inexperienced young lady may have gone along with it, thinking that there was no way a housewife in her 30s would be any competition.

But, once the heir and the spare came along and Charles went back to Camilla, Diana started her own affairs as part of the arrangement. She was indiscreet as she wasn't as used to subterfuge as C&C were, and this hurt Charles' male ego. No man wants to appear to be cuckolded, especially someone as proud as Charles. When Hewitt came into the picture Charles finally couldn't stand it anymore and gave up on the marriage. At that point it collapsed, and no cajoling from HM could keep them together.

Charles, Camilla and Andrew took advantage of a young, naive woman who read romance novels. Three thirty-somethings against a 19 year old, she didn't stand a chance. Was she totally innocent, of course not, but I do believe she was a victim while the other three were definitely not.
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  #2846  
Old 04-30-2018, 02:36 AM
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Andrew saw his future second wife and Camilla saw Prince Charles while the Parker Bowles were still married. It was an arrangement that suited them both.

In June 1994 came the Dimbleby TV interview and then the Dimbleby bio on Charles which damaged his public image. Camilla's name appears in both the book and TV interview. The Parker Bowles divorce came on 3rd March 1995.

Andrew asked for a divorce weeks after the book and Dimbleby programme occurred and Junor avers that 'Andrew's hand was forced'. His brother made a statement criticising the POW.

Andrew was chronically unfaithful throughout the marriage but had stayed with Camilla during the years she and Charles were seeing each other. Junor writes that Camilla was 'devastated' by Andrew's request for a divorce.

In other words she (Camilla) was quite happy about her husband playing away from home and she being the Prince's mistress as well as continuing the outer role as a 'respectable' married woman, until her lover outed her to the world and she was subsequently divorced.

And Camilla apparently called Diana 'mad cow' as well as 'that ridiculous creature'.
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  #2847  
Old 04-30-2018, 03:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Andrew saw his future second wife and Camilla saw Prince Charles while the Parker Bowles were still married. It was an arrangement that suited them both.

In June 1994 came the Dimbleby TV interview and then the Dimbleby bio on Charles which damaged his public image. Camilla's name appears in both the book and TV interview. The Parker Bowles divorce came on 3rd March 1995.

Andrew asked for a divorce weeks after the book and Dimbleby programme occurred and Junor avers that 'Andrew's hand was forced'. His brother made a statement criticising the POW.

Andrew was chronically unfaithful throughout the marriage but had stayed with Camilla during the years she and Charles were seeing each other. Junor writes that Camilla was 'devastated' by Andrew's request for a divorce.

In other words she (Camilla) was quite happy about her husband playing away from home and she being the Prince's mistress as well as continuing the outer role as a 'respectable' married woman, until her lover outed her to the world and she was subsequently divorced.

And Camilla apparently called Diana 'mad cow' as well as 'that ridiculous creature'.
I don't think that andrew was really upset to have the chance to divorce. He was fond of Camilla and he stayed iwht her, because if he had split up with her while there were rumours swirling round about her affair with Charles, she would have been "exposed" as the other person in the C and D marriage. but I think he was probably relieved to get out of the marriage, once Charles had admitted there was an affair.. as it meant he could leave Camilla to Charles, and marry the lady he was by then in love with.
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  #2848  
Old 04-30-2018, 03:20 AM
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No I don't think Andrew was upset about the divorce. It was the humiliation in front of others that HE objected to. However, Junor describes Camilla as being 'devastated' and with 'her future unsure' at his decision.
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  #2849  
Old 04-30-2018, 03:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
No I don't think Andrew was upset about the divorce. It was the humiliation in front of others that HE objected to. However, Junor describes Camilla as being 'devastated' and with 'her future unsure' at his decision.
I don't think you can balme him for being annoyed by the manner of the "outing".. however, the fact is that it freed him. But for Camilla, it was uncertain. Charles loved her, but it wasn't clear, at that point, whether he wuodl be able to marry her.. and she probably felt that she had lost the security of her marriage, without any certainty that she and Charles would be abel to marry....
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  #2850  
Old 04-30-2018, 05:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Nimue View Post



Camilla's marriage was purring along just fine. It was Diana's outing that caused the tabloids to start to stalk Camilla's house making life miserable for that family, necessitating the divorce. It was the only solution to what had become an intolerable situation.





Because of Diana's actions that marriage became doomed because of the impossible day-in-day-out craziness the family was subject to. It was their only way out of getting clear of the madness. Diana helped with that. If you will notice all players remain friends to this day. (Includes Anne, APB's former lover).
"Camilla's marriage was purring along just fine" Really? Superficially so, it probably was. I suppose if we accept that each was content to turn a blind eye to the other's extra-maritals, as many such marriages "purr along" that's true, but the fact remains that had they not engaged in such in the first place there may have been a stronger foundation for keeping the marriage together. It seems likely that the marriage had become one of polite companionship and convenience. No reason for them to be any less friendly if they parted.
I'm a strong believer in that ANY marriage can be made to work if the two people in it are determined enough to make it work. It probably requires a HUGE degree of pretense from both. In this module, however, love -or whatever it means- isn't a prerequisite. Any problems and underlying cracks will only reveal themselves when one party meets someone who they don't have to put on an act with. Someone who has empathy with them. Someone with whom lust and affection combine to create LOVE. Not until such occurs may they recognize what's been missing for them.
I read massive vitriol against Diana. Allegedly, so it appears to me, not only is she responsible for the break-down of her own marriage -having hooked him by having the temerity to empathize with him about the death of his uncle. SUCH cunning!- she is also being held responsible for the break-up of a long established marriage!!! She may not have been truly 'in love' with him -"whatever that word mean"- but at 19 and maybe not having previously felt more than a crush it's a little more understandable than he, at 33, saying of being in love "Whatever that word means".
Having once been a huge Diana fan, I totally concur that she was the wrong one for Charles but it wasn't her fault that she was never going to be the wife he needed. He'd already met the woman who'd have fulfilled the role.
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  #2851  
Old 04-30-2018, 05:11 AM
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The point is though, surely, Denville, that the whole situation could have been avoided by Charles not mentioning who his mistress was in the Dimbleby interview and book. Charles blamed his Private Secretary Commander Aylard for that contremps, but surely there comes a time when you have to own your own decisions. He left Camilla PB in, to say the least, a very equivocal position by outing her and it was the end of her marriage, something she did not want.
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  #2852  
Old 04-30-2018, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Nimue View Post
A good summary of the dilemma.



Have to agree with you 100%. If ever there was a cautionary tale regarding how important it is to choose one's marital partner judiciously, it is Charles choosing Diana. What a mistake!

What's interesting to consider is a might-have-been, which I don't think is realistic, but consider if it did occur: Charles never married. That would mean that it would be Edward's son who would be the next heir, not so? King James.
No, not accurate- it would be the Duke of York next in line-so it would be Queen Beatrice.
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  #2853  
Old 04-30-2018, 06:47 AM
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I don't know that it is fair to be so critical of Diana going after Charles--and she did. She was young and fooled herself into thinking she was in love. At the same time, Charles was not exactly blameless. I don't think that people should be required to give up using a gift from a former lover if they really like it. I don't understand why he would keep Camilla's photograph (if he did).

The reason that I tend to take Charles's side in the breakup is because Charles has acknowledged that he made mistakes and deeply regrets at least some of his behavior. Diana was a perpetual victim who never admitted that she could have done things differently too.

I also blame Diana for going public, without any consideration of how it would impact her sons. Please spare me the "Charles did an interview too." His interview was two years after the Morton book and he didn't criticize Diana during his interview. In his interview, Charles admitted that he had an affair, but didn't point out that Diana had affairs too.

Regardless, Diana wasn't an evil person. She was flawed and made mistakes but I don't think that she was deliberately trying to hurt Charles during their courtship--but he wasn't trying to hurt her either.
All nicely put, Royal Watcher. Your last point is key.

Diana, unfortunately, couldn't know how devastating an impact misleading Charles about her interests would be on the marriage's long term health. Indeed, how that deception would impact her own happiness in the marriage. She was not trying to hurt Charles, just make him feel comfortable with her (we can assume) to oil the wheels on the relationship moving forward. I can go with that.

By the same token, Charles was not trying to hurt Diana when he sent her books to read, when he tried to discuss intellectual topics. I can go with that, too.
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  #2854  
Old 04-30-2018, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
The point is though, surely, Denville, that the whole situation could have been avoided by Charles not mentioning who his mistress was in the Dimbleby interview and book. Charles blamed his Private Secretary Commander Aylard for that contremps, but surely there comes a time when you have to own your own decisions. He left Camilla PB in, to say the least, a very equivocal position by outing her and it was the end of her marriage, something she did not want.
I agree that it was foolish of Charles to discuss his marriage in public and to out Cam as his mistress. and it did leave her in a difficult position with her husband, who had stayed iwht her out of loyalty.. now fed up and wanting out of the marriage.. but she was afraid of this happening because at the time, it seemed that it would NOT be possible for her to marry Charles. It was a bad decision, just as Diana's decision to do Morton and Bashir were bad decisions.
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  #2855  
Old 04-30-2018, 08:49 AM
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I agree that it was foolish of Charles to discuss his marriage in public and to out Cam as his mistress. and it did leave her in a difficult position with her husband, who had stayed iwht her out of loyalty.. now fed up and wanting out of the marriage.. but she was afraid of this happening because at the time, it seemed that it would NOT be possible for her to marry Charles. It was a bad decision, just as Diana's decision to do Morton and Bashir were bad decisions.

I think we can all probably empathize with an about to be divorced, middle aged woman. Her fears about an unknown and possibly less secure future on her own are understandable. However, it was the joint behaviours of the married couple which led to the break-up. Anyone who is part of an open marriage must surely know that there's always a risk that such behaviours could cause it to implode at any time. THEIR behaviours -over which they had choice- were never Diana's responsibility.
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  #2856  
Old 04-30-2018, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by US Royal Watcher View Post
I don't buy that it would have been an arranged marriage. Even if it was, arranged marriages are still the norm in many societies. Charles had been in love with Camilla, but that doesn't mean that he wouldn't eventually moved on. A marriage can be happy even if the parties aren't in love in the beginning. People who have good marriages share the same values with their partners. They also problem solve and learn to let things go. Neither Charles or Diana really did that--although I believe that Charles did try.
We have to look no further than Charles' mentor "Uncle Dickie" Lord Louis Mountbatten to see an example of an "aristocratic" marriage. Both Louis and his wife, Edwina, were married but happily had separate "private" lives.

It is understandable that should Charles and Amanda Knatchbull have married, they would have stayed together and perhaps followed the example of Louis and Edwina. Amanda, though, held out for a marriage totally based on a love match. Diana was a different kettle of fish.
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  #2857  
Old 04-30-2018, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
We have to look no further than Charles' mentor "Uncle Dickie" Lord Louis Mountbatten to see an example of an "aristocratic" marriage. Both Louis and his wife, Edwina, were married but happily had separate "private" lives.

It is understandable that should Charles and Amanda Knatchbull have married, they would have stayed together and perhaps followed the example of Louis and Edwina. Amanda, though, held out for a marriage totally based on a love match. Diana was a different kettle of fish.
I wonder if the accepted norms of the time the Mountbattens wed are, perhaps, less accepted now? Charles, who appeared to revere "Uncle Dickie" may have believed it to be an acceptable way to conduct married life, whilst Amanda, being younger, felt differently. I wonder what would have been Diana's thoughts on such had the question been put to her? I wonder, too, what you mean by saying she was "a different kettle of fish"? Do you perhaps feel that Diana would have settled for less than a love match, or that she may have felt she loved him more than he loved her but thought she was capable of providing enough love for both of them?
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  #2858  
Old 04-30-2018, 10:58 AM
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I wonder, too, what you mean by saying she was "a different kettle of fish"? Do you perhaps feel that Diana would have settled for less than a love match, or that she may have felt she loved him more than he loved her but thought she was capable of providing enough love for both of them?
Diana's mindset going into a marriage was the ideal "happily ever after" marriage for love and devotion to each other. I don't think she had a clue of anything to do with an "aristocratic" marriage. She was an aristocrat but witnessed a divorce rather than her parents having discreet private lives. She expected to marry for keeps. She also never witnessed her own parents being able to work as a partnership.

I definitely believe that Diana would have settled for nothing less than a love match. Even a "Cartland" romance love match.
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  #2859  
Old 04-30-2018, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Diana's mindset going into a marriage was the ideal "happily ever after" marriage for love and devotion to each other. I don't think she had a clue of anything to do with an "aristocratic" marriage. She was an aristocrat but witnessed a divorce rather than her parents having discreet private lives. She expected to marry for keeps. She also never witnessed her own parents being able to work as a partnership.

I definitely believe that Diana would have settled for nothing less than a love match. Even a "Cartland" romance love match.

Osipi, it sounds as if you share my own belief that she was convinced -or forced herself to be convinced- that this is what she had. Perhaps the media hype -and a surfeit of Barbara Cartland- contributed to her belief that she'd found "happy ever after"?
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  #2860  
Old 04-30-2018, 12:04 PM
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Exactly. She had a romanticized vision of marriage rather than seeing marriage as a partnership of melding body, mind and soul that takes work and compromises and the "I don't like you too much right now" days.
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