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  #2801  
Old 04-29-2018, 12:35 AM
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Hi there Purrs, (do you have a cat?) I agree with you. They both needed what the other could never provide. This, added to a large age gap, no shared interests/hobbies and different views of the world (Charles old for his age, rather anguished/pessimistic in temperament, Diana very young for her age, longing always for praise and validation) it was a disaster waiting to happen.
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  #2802  
Old 04-29-2018, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
How incompatible were Princess Diana and Prince Charles?
Without getting into an argument Diana entered the marriage with a different agenda than did Charles. IMO. That was the source of the 'incompatibility'. I believe Charles was poised to do whatever it took to make the marriage work. He was not prepared for a spouse who was not similarly vested. The scale to which Charles misjudged the motives and essential character of Diana has to be attributed to his inexperience (and youngness) as well (he was easily flattered), plus he was still reeling from the loss of his uncle who had pretty much steered Charles. For a man of his age he still had not lived a self-directed life. Thrown into the deep end, confronted with a decision he had been trusting another would guide him in, he seems to not have had a clue when confronted with an opportunist (Diana).

I am of the opinion that had Diana had just a modicum of respect for the institution she married into, and with that respect for Charles as well, the marriage would have worked, and she could have lived a pretty decent life. JMO. (It's very sad).

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Was Charles too self-centered to begin to understand Diana?
Not at all. He was opening veins for her comfort, short of deconstructing his Prince of Wales responsibilities. 'Understanding' Diana suggests that there would have been a point she would have been satisfied. I don't think there was ever such a point. She never demonstrated being contented. She was a restless soul. However, I will always maintain that Diana was a very happy soul through the 80's. She was pretty much doing whatever she wanted and the videos of that time show her to be a very happy person imo. It was Charles who was clearly suffering, in considerable distress.
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  #2803  
Old 04-29-2018, 01:13 AM
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Charles was in love with another woman, Camilla, when he became engaged to Diana, a woman he had had a long affair with which had begun after her children were born and ended when he was dating Diana and received the letter from Prince Philip telling him not to mess with Diana, either become engaged or drop her, advice Charles insisted on treating as an ultimatum. I don't call that being invested in his marriage from the beginning!

He married Diana because she was young and suitable, virginal and aristocratic. He had to marry at some stage and he was attracted to her. She was in love with him. However, their temperaments, ages, interests and ways of looking at the world were completely different.
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  #2804  
Old 04-29-2018, 01:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Charles was in love with another woman, Camilla, when he became engaged to Diana, a woman he had had a long affair with which had begun after her children were born and ended when he was dating Diana and received the letter from Prince Philip telling him not to mess with Diana, either become engaged or drop her, advice Charles insisted on treating as an ultimatum. I don't call that being invested in his marriage from the beginning!
This is the myth Diana stoked for sure and it has become accepted as 'fact'. If one accepts this as one's baseline the rest follows. I don't accept that it was so. Charles had too many other loves for it to be so. JMO.

As for being invested in the marriage one has only to look at his behavior in the early years. He clearly was in the midst of falling in love with Diana, and was doing all that he could to satisfy her needs. That's being invested in my book. Clearly you see it differently. We don't have to argue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
He married Diana because she was young and suitable, virginal and aristocratic. He had to marry at some stage and he was attracted to her. She was in love with him. However, their temperaments, ages, interests and ways of looking at the world were completely different.
He married her for the reasons you give (she 'qualified' for the role for those reasons) but he also was charmed by her. He was also misled by her. He was not looking at the situation clearly. In many ways Diana was far more canny than he was. Diana set her sites and never deviated. With Mountbatten out of the picture Charles never had a chance. My opinion.

I do not believe Diana was in love with Charles. She was besotted with the fairytale, the status, the prospect of being Queen one day, of scoring for her family the prize her sister failed to win (her motives were complex). Had she been in love she would never have flirted and strayed to the extent she did so early on and across a decade. She could not have borne to be in another man's bed, had she been in love as you suggest. She never gave the marriage a chance, Charles' gallant assertion aside. What happened was that over time, and especially when she realized what she had lost, she lamented. Out in the cold, with Charles' support and help continuing, must have made her realize what she had lost. Admitting she loved him by then may have had more to do with lost security. It's just too sad.

It is for sure the most unusual story. There is a mystery at it's core: the real nature of Diana and Charles. The debates will go on for a long, long time, methinks.
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  #2805  
Old 04-29-2018, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Purrs View Post
IMHO, Charles and Diane were very incompatible because they both were insecure and needed a partner that was emotionally stronger than themselves to bolster their self esteem. (I don't think Charles was any more self centred than Diana). I think they made each other worse and unhappy because of this incompatibilty. Camille is a much better match for Charles (regardless of her role in the breakdown of his marriage) and Diana would have been happier with someone like Dr. Hasnat Khan in temperament (although that relationship didn't last for several reasons including Dr. Khan's discomfort with her fame.)
I totally concur. Relationships in which both have the same needs rarely flourish because being needy of the same thing renders them incapable of giving the other what they need. The irony is that they needed each other for entirely different and incompatible reasons.
Whether Diana, because of her deep-seated insecurities- would ever have been truly content long term is a moot point but had she felt secure in that she'd been loved I'm certain it might have helped. I don't believe this was going to be possible. Whilst she fitted all the criteria laid down for a royal bride/mother to future king, it's entirely possible that Charles' feelings for her were more about relief at having found such a suitable spouse rather than a deep and abiding love -such would surely have prevented him, despite it being hinted that such had been suggested, from turning to another woman.
It occurs to me that whilst the suggestion has been put forward that Diana should have put up and shut up, the same advice seems not to have applied to Charles. I won't accept that she had only been attracted to his title, but I will accept it was a part of it. I believe, emphatically that part of why she married him was because she believed it was the one marriage which couldn't fail. I think, since her parents' divorce, she'd carried an ideal of what she believed to be the perfect marriage. I think, because she was young and idealistic, she made herself believe this was it. Allegedly, she experienced a 'wobble' at the last minute. It was probably her gut telling her something was wrong. Too late. At that stage of THAT wedding.
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  #2806  
Old 04-29-2018, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Nimue View Post
This is the myth Diana stoked for sure and it has become accepted as 'fact'. If one accepts this as one's baseline the rest follows. I don't accept that it was so. Charles had too many other loves for it to be so. JMO.
If we look at things objectively, we see that a lot of couples that dated in the royal family ended a romantic relationship but yet continued to be friends. Andrew Parker-Bowles and Anne for one. William and Jecca Craig. This is actually how I see Charles and Camilla at the time of Charles' marriage to Diana. Its my opinion that Diana would have seen any kind of a close relationship with another female as a threat. Even women that were married and part of Charles' circle.

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Originally Posted by Lady Nimue View Post
As for being invested in the marriage one has only to look at his behavior in the early years. He clearly was in the midst of falling in love with Diana, and was doing all that he could to satisfy her needs. That's being invested in my book. Clearly you see it differently. We don't have to argue.
At the very beginning, I think they both tried. It was the daily living together, really getting to know each other and exploring each other that they found the real differences starting to rear its ugly head. The best way to describe it, I think, is that the veil was lifted when both of them felt at ease to be who they really were. This commonly happens when a couple rush into marriage too quick.

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Originally Posted by Lady Nimue View Post
He married her for the reasons you give (she 'qualified' for the role for those reasons) but he also was charmed by her. He was also misled by her. He was not looking at the situation clearly. In many ways Diana was far more canny than he was. Diana set her sites and never deviated. With Mountbatten out of the picture Charles never had a chance. My opinion.
He was under a lot of pressure to marry and Diana checked off all the boxes under "suitable". He was impressed and besotted with the package presented all tied up pretty with a bow and as there was really no one else in the picture at the time (he'd tried with Amanda Knatchbull but that didn't happen), he figured Diana was a good option to take. He didn't take time to look inside the package and see what it really contained.

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Originally Posted by Lady Nimue View Post
I do not believe Diana was in love with Charles. She was besotted with the fairytale, the status, the prospect of being Queen one day, of scoring for her family the prize her sister failed to win (her motives were complex). Had she been in love she would never have flirted and strayed to the extent she did so early on and across a decade. She could not have borne to be in another man's bed, had she been in love as you suggest. She never gave the marriage a chance, Charles' gallant assertion aside. What happened was that over time, and especially when she realized what she had lost, she lamented. Out in the cold, with Charles' support and help continuing, must have made her realize what she had lost. Admitting she loved him by then may have had more to do with lost security. It's just too sad.

It is for sure the most unusual story. There is a mystery at it's core: the real nature of Diana and Charles. The debates will go on for a long, long time, methinks.
Even just looking at the time line between meeting and getting married and how much time they actually spent together, its quite obvious that Diana set out to capture Charles, The Prince of Wales. She had no real clue of who Charles, the man really was. She made the mistake of believing that she could turn the relationship into one that figured in her head as a "perfect" marriage and, I believe, that "perfect" marriage only happens in fairy tales and romance novels. I put this down to really not having a serious relationship before Charles. Diana was virginal in a lot of ways besides the physical when she met Charles. She found that the reality of marriage with its ups and downs and compromises and merging as a team didn't mesh with what she believed a marriage should be like.

Yes, its all quite sad but there were good times and happy times and two beautiful sons came out of that marriage.
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  #2807  
Old 04-29-2018, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Nimue View Post
This is the myth Diana stoked for sure and it has become accepted as 'fact'. If one accepts this as one's baseline the rest follows. I don't accept that it was so. Charles had too many other loves for it to be so. JMO.
I have written numerous comments before that have been critical of Diana. I don't buy for one minute that Diana was in love with Charles the man, she married him out of ambition and for security.

Buuuut, I accept as fact that Charles was still in love with Camilla and carried a strong torch for her. I think that Charles and Camilla parted ways in order to give Charles and Diana's marriage a sporting chance, and to carry out their duty of producing an heir and spare, but I think that Camilla continued to have his heart.

The reason that I don't see it as a myth is because Penny Junor, Charles and Camilla sympathizer extraordinaire, wrote about Charles' behavior on his honeymoon, namely Charles having pictures of Camilla with him and wearing cufflinks with intertwined Cs. What the !!!!

Charles and the BRF are lucky that Diana was her own special brand of crazy and ambitious because a more sound person would have, as soon as the Britannia docked back in England, headed straight to a solicitor's office and filed for an annulment.

Perhaps Charles came to some kind of realization that he should not carry around his ex-lover's pictures and wear cufflinks with his and her initials, and that was his part of trying to make the marriage work, and I do think that both tried to make the marriage work and they had good times together, but Charles behavior on the Britannia was abhorrent.
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  #2808  
Old 04-29-2018, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
If Lord Louis Mountbatten had not had the bombing incident end his life and he continued to live, do you think Prince Charles might still have married Lady Diana?
I really can't say. Perhaps had Uncle Dickie still been around, he would have counseled Charles and persuaded him to take more time to be absolutely sure that this marriage is what he really wanted. As it was, when Diana came about, Charles had no one really as a mentor to confide in and guide him.
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  #2809  
Old 04-29-2018, 06:25 PM
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It might of gone differently....hard to say.


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  #2810  
Old 04-29-2018, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
If Lord Louis Mountbatten had not had the bombing incident end his life and he continued to live, do you think Prince Charles might still have married Lady Diana?
I think not. Don't think Diana would have survived Mountbattan's canny eye.

Charles likely would have married Amanda Knatchbull, Mountbattan's granddaughter. In this link one can see pictures of Charles and Amanda at the beach. She turned Charles down after the death of Mountbattan, but had Mountbattan been alive she may have accepted. We'll never know, of course, but she was being groomed across several years for the role of Charles' wife. Life for the BRF (and Charles) would have been a lot calmer (and predictable) with Amanda as his wife.

LINK: https://www.express.co.uk/news/royal...-house-windsor
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  #2811  
Old 04-29-2018, 06:54 PM
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The Amanda Knatchbull romance was over well before Diana, she wouldn't put up with Charles's behavior.


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  #2812  
Old 04-29-2018, 07:01 PM
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The Amanda Knatchbull romance was over well before Diana, she wouldn't put up with Charles's behavior. LaRae
Not 'well before' Diana, within the same year, in fact. Nothing to do with Charles' behavior (what's that mean?). Amanda was grieving the loss of family members, as was Charles, from the same tragedy. She was not in the mental/emotional frame to marry just then, with Mountbattan so soon gone so tragically. His death was really pivotal.
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  #2813  
Old 04-29-2018, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
The Amanda Knatchbull romance was over well before Diana, she wouldn't put up with Charles's behavior.

LaRae
I've never heard Charles's behavior was the reason why Amanda turned down his marriage proposal.

According to Amanda's mother, Countess Mountbatten, "they were great friends, had a lot in common, and she was very fond of him," but she wasn't in love with him and refused to settle for anything less than "the love match you need."

Source: Sally Bedell Smith, Prince Charles: The Passions and Paradoxes of an Improbable Life (Random House, 2017), p. 118.
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  #2814  
Old 04-29-2018, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Nimue View Post
I think not. Don't think Diana would have survived Mountbattan's canny eye.

Charles likely would have married Amanda Knatchbull, Mountbattan's granddaughter. In this link one can see pictures of Charles and Amanda at the beach. She turned Charles down after the death of Mountbattan, but had Mountbattan been alive she may have accepted. We'll never know, of course, but she was being groomed across several years for the role of Charles' wife. Life for the BRF (and Charles) would have been a lot calmer (and predictable) with Amanda as his wife.

LINK: https://www.express.co.uk/news/royal...-house-windsor
I agree. I also think she used Lord Mountbatten’s death to her advantage to endear herself to Charles.
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  #2815  
Old 04-29-2018, 07:53 PM
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I agree. I also think she used Lord Mountbatten’s death to her advantage to endear herself to Charles.
You mean Diana, yes. That was her 'in'. She used her considerable empathic mode to ingratiate herself with Charles at a time when he was vulnerable. Very calculating imo, not everyone's view but it is my view. I see Diana as very people savvy. (Curious as in the myth Camilla was supposedly carrying out the role of comforter so many inconsistencies in the myth).
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  #2816  
Old 04-29-2018, 07:57 PM
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My view too Lady Nimue. For me, Diana was a wolf in sheep’s clothing.
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  #2817  
Old 04-29-2018, 09:49 PM
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I don't know that it is fair to be so critical of Diana going after Charles--and she did. She was young and fooled herself into thinking she was in love. At the same time, Charles was not exactly blameless. I don't think that people should be required to give up using a gift from a former lover if they really like it. I don't understand why he would keep Camilla's photograph (if he did).


The reason that I tend to take Charles's side in the breakup is because Charles has acknowledged that he made mistakes and deeply regrets at least some of his behavior. Diana was a perpetual victim who never admitted that she could have done things differently too.


I also blame Diana for going public, without any consideration of how it would impact her sons. Please spare me the "Charles did an interview too." His interview was two years after the Morton book and he didn't criticize Diana during his interview. In his interview, Charles admitted that he had an affair, but didn't point out that Diana had affairs too.


Regardless, Diana wasn't an evil person. She was flawed and made mistakes but I don't think that she was deliberately trying to hurt Charles during their courtship--but he wasn't trying to hurt her either.
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  #2818  
Old 04-29-2018, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Gawin View Post
I've never heard Charles's behavior was the reason why Amanda turned down his marriage proposal.

According to Amanda's mother, Countess Mountbatten, "they were great friends, had a lot in common, and she was very fond of him," but she wasn't in love with him and refused to settle for anything less than "the love match you need."

Source: Sally Bedell Smith, Prince Charles: The Passions and Paradoxes of an Improbable Life (Random House, 2017), p. 118.
Charles didn't love Amanda as he didn't love Diana. It would be just another arranged marriage and there is no reason to believe it would be a happy one. Amanda might have put up with Charles' infidelity though in a way Diana did not, because of her royal ancestry.
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  #2819  
Old 04-29-2018, 10:17 PM
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Charles didn't love Amanda as he didn't love Diana. It would be just another arranged marriage and there is no reason to believe it would be a happy one. Amanda might have put up with Charles' infidelity though in a way Diana did not, because of her royal ancestry.
I don't buy that it would have been an arranged marriage. Even if it was, arranged marriages are still the norm in many societies. Charles had been in love with Camilla, but that doesn't mean that he wouldn't eventually moved on. A marriage can be happy even if the parties aren't in love in the beginning. People who have good marriages share the same values with their partners. They also problem solve and learn to let things go. Neither Charles or Diana really did that--although I believe that Charles did try.
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  #2820  
Old 04-29-2018, 10:21 PM
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Charles didn't love Amanda as he didn't love Diana. It would be just another arranged marriage and there is no reason to believe it would be a happy one. Amanda might have put up with Charles' infidelity though in a way Diana did not, because of her royal ancestry.
Not so. Charles and Amanda were well known to each other (across years) and in many ways, that being the case, they had a foundation upon which to build a loving marriage (the same as Elizabeth and Philip, or Victoria and Albert). Friendship is important in marriage, I have found, and sustains. Friendship means there is respect and goodwill. One cannot equate Amanda and Diana. The most relevant objection to the Amanda/Charles match that I have read was that the two were more like brother/sister, meaning very good friends. In my book that could have blossomed into something more. However, it didn't and the rest is history.

[P.S. These statements about 'love' have almost become code. What is love, after all? Caring, wanting the best for someone, tenderness, sharing, humor: these things go far to create the ambiance in which love can grow.]

Keep in mind that Diana very happily put up with Charles' infidelity for an entire decade. Plus Charles' infidelity (when it finally happened) was with (in the end) only one woman. It's not like Charles was out there playing the field, siring babies, and having wild parties. His indiscretions were so discreet that to this day we have very little knowledge of what took place, whereas with Diana she was so indiscreet that the tabloids were going to blow the whistle on her, and did.
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