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  #2701  
Old 10-14-2017, 06:35 PM
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I think that she saw everything in a rosy hue when she was around Charles because she was so "in love". At least one courtier, Dickie Arbiter maybe, said that they seemed to be "crazy about each other" when they were together at Buckingham Palace before the wedding. Even Stephen Barry, Charles late ex-valet said the same thing of Charles and Diana during their early marriage. My view is that they both gave up on their marriage too soon. Diana figured that the marriage was over after Harry's birth; yet she also said that they were at their closest ever in the few weeks before he was born.
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  #2702  
Old 10-14-2017, 06:46 PM
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that's one of the things that Diana said that makes me so dubious about the truth as she told it. I mean that I find it hard to believe a lot of what she said. She said that she and charles were at their happiest before H was born, THEN that the marriage had just gone bang, straight after his birth. Doesn't add up.
So I tend ot disbleive her sayng that she "felt the marriage was over completely" soon as H was born and Charles made hs famous alleged remark "its a boy and he has red hair."
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  #2703  
Old 01-20-2018, 08:50 PM
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I don't believe that Diana truly expected her marriage would end in divorce.
I think she was shocked when the Queen decided that would be the best outcome for everyone.
I think Diana was taken aback. And then of course, it was a done deal, and nothing to do but put on a brave face and move on.
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  #2704  
Old 01-20-2018, 09:07 PM
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I agree with you, Mirabel. As a 19 year old, one of the big selling points of marrying Charles was that she honestly believed that he couldn't divorce her. With that belief firmly entrenched in her mind, she trod where angels would fear to. Had she realized from the get go that it takes work to make a marriage work and that there would be compromises and effort or else the marriage would fall apart and divorce would ensue, I think she may have acted a bit more cautiously and wisely.

Then again, maybe not. Diana was Diana.
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  #2705  
Old 01-20-2018, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirabel View Post
I don't believe that Diana truly expected her marriage would end in divorce.
I think she was shocked when the Queen decided that would be the best outcome for everyone.
I think Diana was taken aback. And then of course, it was a done deal, and nothing to do but put on a brave face and move on.
Ditto, Ditto, Ditto! Agree. She thought she was untouchable.

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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
I agree with you, Mirabel. As a 19 year old, one of the big selling points of marrying Charles was that she honestly believed that he couldn't divorce her.
I think the major selling point was that he was the Prince of Wales, the future king, and his wife would be queen, at the top of the social pecking order. That made Charles desirable above all others. Secondarily she may have actually thought that it was a position 'beyond the law', beyond all social norms, because she certainly danced the light fantastic for all it was worth for her whole tenure as the wife of Charles. She could be as dismissive as she cared to be and he could do nothing (so she thought) and for the longest time she was right: the Queen refused Charles' repeated requests for a divorce.

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With that belief firmly entrenched in her mind, she trod where angels would fear to.
That's putting it mildly!

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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Had she realized from the get go that it takes work to make a marriage work and that there would be compromises and effort or else the marriage would fall apart and divorce would ensue, I think she may have acted a bit more cautiously and wisely.

Then again, maybe not. Diana was Diana.
I agree. Had it been explained to her that a divorce was possible, we may have seen a very different scenario unfold.
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  #2706  
Old 01-21-2018, 04:40 AM
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The divorce was forced on her. After the Panorama interview which aired in Nov 20 1995. The Queen wrote to both herself and Charles and advised that it was best they divorced. Sadly, it turned out to be the death nail in their marriage. Considering 'Charles' future role as Head of Church of England and 'Defender of the Faith', I don't think she ever thought that her Majesty would advise they divorce. Which leads me to believe Diana was set up. They separated (unofficially) in 1992 (or thereabouts). If memory serves me correctly, in English Law, any divorce had to be preceded by a 2 year cooling period (to allow the parties the opportunity to come to their senses and hopefully reconcile). In 1995, the 2 year period was up and she played into their hands.

I cannot claim to know but if I was to hazard a guess I would say I think there's a myriad of reasons
a) She married him for love, moreover she was a virgin when she married him. So when he strayed she felt terribly let down, insulted, used and rejected. And rightly so.
b) as a teenager she had gorged herself on romantic novels, one can only surmise that she had this vision of what love should be, subsequently she felt some type of way when Charles strayed from the script.
c) she had an obsessive personality. Domestically she was extremely neat and tidy so I suspect she just couldn't accept the mess that was her marriage.
d) she never understood her role(s) from the beginning. She failed to tackle the reading material provided by the Royal Family- about the Royal Family more so previous on the Previous 'Princess' of Wales). Because of this she never quite realised that she had married a man and an Institution. An institution that many relied upon to play a function. An Institution that will be protected at all costs until it becomes untenable to do so.

I understand her rage, but I just don't understand how she played the game so badly. The Andrew Morton book 'Diana: Her True Story was a cannon of mammoth proportions. She shredded Charles to pieces, his reputation was in tatters. She should have left it at that and focused on her role as Mother of the Future King and global icon. The combination of these two roles meant that she was a very influential person in her own right. The Panorama interview was ill advised.

Diana cannot be neatly boxed into a Saint or Sinner. I think there are many lessons to be learnt from her life. It's a pity how things ended.
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  #2707  
Old 01-21-2018, 04:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Nimue View Post
Beautifully summed up, Osipi.



Interesting 'take' on Charles. Your opinion, of course, but I go by the character of the man we know. I've no doubt that Charles may have personal issues (as do we all) but I do see him as a man of integrity and discretion (never once has he spoken ill of Diana). We will never fully know what Charles was dealing with regarding Diana's imbalance (nor she of him and how he triggered her). We have some clue in the 'Portrait of a Troubled Princess' book (a harrowing read which I have never been able to finish).

My 'take' on Diana was she was never intimidated by Charles' 'seniority'. Quite the reverse, she dictated to him from nearly the get-go, and threw substantial fits if he did not abide by her wishes. Not exactly the kind of behavior that would have opened up an already cautious Charles. In most of this we have to accept people's limitations and not judge them for those limitations. JMO.

EDIT: Remember: for the sit-down talk to have sincerity, Diana would have had to have been willing to own up to her own flirtations, and her own long-standing love affair with Hewitt. In that scenario, which among the two might not have wanted to 'negotiate'? I have my answer, what would be yours?
I don't believe either had the emotional tools necessary to enable such intimate dialogue -MANY don't- because I don't believe it was ever demonstrated to them by their parents. You speak of "going by the character of the man (or even woman) we know" but it's my job to see behind the mask which we all offer for public viewing. I'm not judging. I'm calling it as I see it.................and I remain very aware that 'wide-eyed innocent ingenue's' may also be inviting us to believe that their wide-eyed innocence is the real thing.
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  #2708  
Old 01-21-2018, 05:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aigulminimalist View Post
[....]
The Andrew Morton book 'Diana: Her True Story was a cannon of mammoth proportions. She shredded Charles to pieces [....].
She mainly shredded herself to pieces, she blew herself up.

The Prince of Wales is still very much The Prince of Wales and the future King. He will be married longer to the lady she despised to much, than he was married to Diana. That lady once will be the King's spouse, not Diana.

With that book she tried to blow up the future King but essentially it backfired in everything to her. She lost her marriage, she lost her position, she lost her aura, as it is doubtful if today's going-to-be 60 years old Lady Diana Al-Fayed or Lady Diana Khan would still be that "iconic" as when she still would have been Her Royal Highness The Princess of Wales.

"She shredded Charles to pieces" = replace "Charles" with "herself".
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  #2709  
Old 01-22-2018, 12:54 AM
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Diana wasn't ill-advised on the Panorama interview. She was advised by several not to do it. She went ahead and did it anyway and that also blew up in her face. She had had sympathy from the Queen and Philip with the Charles/Camilla affair, but when she attacked Charles by questioning his ability to become King among other things, the Royal Family circled the wagons to defend one of the family. Between the book and interview, she stewed her own goose.
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  #2710  
Old 01-25-2018, 05:11 AM
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I think one statement really can be applied to Diana's behavior and that is "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned". No one is angrier than a woman who has been rejected in love.

Whatever was perceived to be done to Diana, in her mind, was held onto like a starving dog with a bone and also became her excuses for whatever she felt she had to do be it affairs, books, tapes, or confrontations.

Lets face it. The woman was not adept at having good relationships with people in her private life.
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  #2711  
Old 01-25-2018, 05:48 AM
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When all is said and done....the Charles and Diana saga always boils down to this basic fact....they were not right for each other and should never have married.
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  #2712  
Old 01-25-2018, 07:37 AM
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What was relationship between diana, charles and Michael Fawcett?
In articles Diana's Secret Tapes March 1997 it seems diana suspects charles in bi/gay relationships with Fawcett (and camilla).

What do you think? Was diana jealous of Charles and Fawcett?

<< This is what the cameraman said are on the Diana tapes.
"She describes the incident that is now at the centre of what is happening. She spoke of her concern about Charles relationship with Fawcett. She believed it played an important part in the end of her marriage.

But time and again, she came back to Fawcett. She described how she came across he and Charles whispering to each other in Palace corridors (Kensington Palace). Several times, she said she didn't like the way he seemed to dominate Charles, not just in a physical way, but mentally also.

Charles is “too close” to aide Michael Fawcett. “What can one do when one’s husband is in an unhealthy relationship with his butler?”

On her loneliness: “I feel completely isolated. Charles confides more in Fawcett than he does with me.”

Of her marriage she is understood to say: "I am not loved. Charles just loves Charles and his position. I have tried to love Charles but he loves someone else." She revealed that although she and her husband lived together at that time, they had only a "father and daughter" relationship.

She attributes much of the blame to Fawcett, who was recently forced to quit his job in the royal gifts-for-sale scandel. She says she can't come between them as there will be "eruptions". And she complains that she and her husband can never talk like a normal married couple because Fawcett is always there "next to Charles".

The two men apparently spent many hours alone in Charle's appartment at Highgrove. Refering to this, Diana adds: "If Fawcett was a women I cuold see it, but what are you doing spending so much time with Fawcett and neglecting your family?"
>>
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  #2713  
Old 01-25-2018, 05:51 PM
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One thing that remained true throughout the Wales marriage is the fact that Diana resented *anyone* that was close to Charles. Didn't matter what position one held or what his job was, they got too close to Charles and Diana got suspicious and resented them.

Charles was known as the "action man" during his prime years and that didn't only apply to his pursuit of women. Charles is basically a prime example of a workaholic. From the time he rises until its time to retire for the night, he's always doing something. This is true to this day. He needs staff around him to keep things straight.

Fawcett was the not the first valet to Charles that Diana resented. Stephen Barry also found he couldn't work for Charles any longer after Diana came on the scene. Diana resented Barry doing his job of picking out clothes for Charles to wear as she felt that was *her* job. I believe I've posted a link elsewhere that lists all the household staff that were pretty much ousted or quit because of conflicts with Diana.

It doesn't surprise me one bit about anything Diana would have said about Fawcett. She was pretty good at conjuring up things in her own head about what was going on and spinning them into her "truth". As I've said before, I wouldn't take anything that Diana has supposedly said as gospel. She was a master of fabrication and portraying things to make things look like "poor little old me" being conspired against and making her life miserable.

With Diana, either she liked you or she didn't like you. If she didn't like you, she'd definitely let the reasons be known.

BTW: a good book I've read is Stephen Barry's " Royal Service: My Twelve Years as Valet" which was published in 1983 and I actually have ordered and waiting for "Royal Secrets: The View from Downstairs" published in 1985. Mr. Barry died in 1986.

We have to remember too that Diana was good at spinning things for the press and its not unusual for articles that have been printed to be slanted in Diana's favor with what she wanted put "out there". Its a totally different ball of wax when you read books by various members of the household (even one by her RPO, Ken Wharfe) or those that actually knew Diana. There are also good reads that delve into Diana's personality and why she acted the way she did. Each work adds a bit more to the puzzle that was Diana. Very complex puzzle.
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  #2714  
Old 01-25-2018, 06:04 PM
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Thanks Osipi, forgot about Mr. Barry. Thanks for the book tip!
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  #2715  
Old 01-25-2018, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
I think one statement really can be applied to Diana's behavior and that is "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned". No one is angrier than a woman who has been rejected in love.
This is the key point: did she feel scorned? I'm not sure she did. Feeling scorned is what we can infer from what she relates in the Morton Book and how she behaved post-book, but was that really what was taking place in those crucial 10 years before the tell-alls broke?

We have endless evidence of Charles liking her very much, and possibly experiencing the early stages of loving her in those days. He definitely was bending over backwards to meet her demands of him. Yet still she wandered, flirted, and that is why Charles had to be the one who was already distant, already self absorbed in Camilla (chosen for Diana's scenario because by 1990 Camilla was indeed the main mistress). It was a bare knuckle necessity that she convict Charles of 'not being there' for her and convince others of that. She wildly succeeded.

I don't think she was angry about being scorned. She was wrought over not getting her way, whatever it was in the moment at any juncture in the timeline, and that played out in an ever mounting series of mis-steps. However, this I do suspect: after so many lovers, she may have realized what she had in Charles, and what she had lost in pushing him away and playing fast-and-loose with the constraints of her royal life. He may not have been as bad a lover or husband or father or all-round person as she made out in her strange, later regretted machinations. She missed him maybe, missed that warm protection being his wife and his companion afforded. Maybe.

There is so much in this story to look at and really delve. Taking Diana's spin at face value is a dead-end. It's a far more nuanced tale imo.
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  #2716  
Old 01-25-2018, 09:21 PM
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Sally Bedell Smith touches upon this. She said that Diana "loathed" Fawcett, and thought he was a "overbearing bully" to those beneath him while being a toadying suck-up to Charles and Camilla.

Diana didn't always hate him. When she first moved to BP before her marriage, Fawcett was one of the staff members that she was very friendly and informal with.
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  #2717  
Old 01-25-2018, 09:37 PM
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I think Diana found herself trying to amuse herself too much. This, by no means, is Charles fault. Charles, by the age of 30, had his life pretty well established how it would be and at the onset of marriage, he expected Diana to be a partner in his life. His role as Prince of Wales is an extremely busy one and its not like that changed overnight after the wedding. The role took him away from Diana even during their courtship and engagement. She professed to love the country life but Charles soon found out that she wanted no part of his hunts or his friends or his interests. Like most people, Charles didn't figure he needed to drop his entire life because he married. He married someone that wanted to totally change him and I don't think that sits well with anyone.

Diana found the daily interactions with Mannakee attractive. I, myself, seriously doubt that there was any real romantic involvement between the two but with Mannakee, Diana had a day to day close relationship with someone. This is what she expected from Charles and Charles found it next to impossible to fulfill each and every whim of Diana's.

Hewitt was the perfect flirtation for Diana. He had been hired solely for the purpose of teaching the boys to ride. He was there and able to focus primarily on Diana and her sons. This led into a love affair that lasted for years. He was there when she needed him and pretty much went along for the ride and was able to conform to what Diana wanted and needed. Until he was deployed. Its said that Diana wanted to pull strings to get him out of it but Hewitt didn't want her to do that. This was the end of the "closeness" they shared and the relationship was in trouble and Diana started wandering again.

To get more input on this, I've just ordered Hewitt's "Love and War". The book that he wrote about their relationship. I know that a lot of people see Hewitt as a rat for doing this (along with other authors that have told their stories in books) but as I figure it, getting all points of view on a subject paint a clearer picture. For me, seeing as how Diana, herself, put her views on the relationship into the public domain by her own admission, it makes sense to me not to condemn Hewitt for doing the same.

This is what I believe that Diana never expected to happen. She would get her version out about the people in her life in the public domain to garner public support and sympathy but didn't realize that in doing so, she'd open the floodgates for others to present their stories and points of view. It went from bad to worse. The Morton book, the Panorama interview and finally the supposed tapes made before she died. Diana was not a master at damage control at all.

It seriously is like doing a jigsaw puzzle and finding the right pieces to fit into the picture when what you're working with is pieces of several puzzles all combined.
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  #2718  
Old 01-25-2018, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Leopoldine View Post
Sally Bedell Smith touches upon this. She said that Diana "loathed" Fawcett, and thought he was a "overbearing bully" to those beneath him while being a toadying suck-up to Charles and Camilla.

Diana didn't always hate him. When she first moved to BP before her marriage, Fawcett was one of the staff members that she was very friendly and informal with.
When Diana first moved into Charles' household as a new bride, Fawcett was part of Charles' staff but he was not in the position that Diana later came to despise. At the beginning, it was Stephen Barry that held the position of Charles' valet.

There have been a lot of reports over the years that Fawcett was strict and overbearing and not just from Diana. From everything I looked at, it seems that Fawcett is still involved with working for Charles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Fawcett#Post-2003
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  #2719  
Old 01-26-2018, 12:07 AM
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I remember reading that Charles pinched Fawcet from BP for the trip to Australia when they took baby William. Before that, WAY before that, Fawcett was one of the friendly staff members who chatted with Diana while she ate ice cream and similar treats in the BP kitchens.
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Old 01-26-2018, 02:03 AM
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Great post, Osipi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aigulminimalist View Post
Perhaps after an affair with the bodyguard Charles just no longer gave a damn about Diana.
To make sense of this drama one has to factor in the character of the players. There is nothing in Charles' character as we know it to lend credence to the frame of a man without integrity and without a profound sense of duty, as we get via Diana's spin (which is suspect from the get-go because of her motives: self defense regarding unacceptable behavior).

IMO for Charles to view the marriage as 'irretrievably broken down' (with the gallantly offered 'us both having tried') necessitated some breaking point for him (as a man of integrity and duty). It is interesting that he offered in that moment the uniquely legal phrase (in reference to marriage and divorce) 'irretrievably broken down', which covers adultery, intolerability, and unreasonable behavior.

Note: character and personalty are two separate issues. A personality can be quixotic and difficult, but the character is a bit more solid. A key question: what was the character of Charles and what was the character of Diana? We can suss that out easily from what we know of them both. From that knowledge one can determine which of the two might have had the more lax attitude towards personal issues of integrity and duty. Which one would have thrown caution to the wind and done what suited them rather than what duty demanded?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aigulminimalist View Post
I also wondered about Diana's strange hypocritical behavior regarding camilla. Diana did not see the problem with her own affair with Hewitt. I'm sure Hewitt, bodyguard affairs contributed to Charles's coldness and alienation.
Something changed a man like Charles from being duty-bound to making the decision to walk away. What was it?

Diana would have us believe that Charles was never playing by the rules of the marriage game from the day of the wedding ceremony. Is that believable? For many it was at the time Diana so painted the scene, and for some it so remains (it certainly remains the go-to version for every tabloid summary story to this day, as Camilla experiences), but I find it is a scenario that does not jive with the character of the man.

The ease with which Charles' character and life of dedicated duty is trashed I find amazing, but that is rooted in a tabloid press that was playing by other rules, with an 'establishment' that disliked Charles' risqué views. Complicated forces were at play, with Diana being the unwitting tool. IMO.

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Originally Posted by aigulminimalist View Post
I do not see what is the point of Princess Diana complaining about life, husband, camilla etc. Many women go through the same problems (without the same benefits, kudos, perks, privileges, etc) with their husbands, so what? She should have her blessings, stop tormenting the underlings and live peacefully.
She would likely never have stopped tormenting the underlings (like that characterization ) since she was very much a woman of her class. It is questionable whether she could have lived peacefully, ever. She was engaging in seriously unbalanced behavior by the time of the Panorama interview: recall that in that interview she was not just bashing Charles and then claiming (in the next breath) that she and he were a 'good team' but she was primarily front-and-center dealing with some wicked bad press: the Hewitt disclosures, and the phone stalking case that almost had the Princess of Wales being brought up on police charges. Good grief!

But in answer to your first sentence (underlined by me) the 'point' in all that she said publicly was to fend off tabloid disclosures of her behavior. She was defending herself. That's why she was 'complaining', that's why she took the nearest (Camilla) and threw her under the bus. It was all deflection from her. We saw that in the Panorama interview where she masterfully addressed both the Hewitt affair, and then threw a young boy under the bus for the phone stalking mess, as she then launched into her 'three in this marriage' and 'princess of hearts' and 'woe is me'. Masterful. In none of that do I see anything but the cleverest of cons. Amazing.
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