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  #2481  
Old 07-01-2017, 04:06 PM
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I agree with Osipi's previous comment re Charles and Diana's courtship: "
Actually, at the onset of their courtship and their subsequent engagement, I do believe there were three in the picture. Diana, Charles and The Prince of Wales."

I'd add that once the courtship became known about, there was a fourth person: Lady Di, the creation of the press.

I believe that it was Anthony Holden (or perhaps Robert Lacey) who wrote that Prince Charles really fell for Diana during his tour of Australia after their engagement, when he saw the reaction of how people responded to Diana--which was the media image of her.
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  #2482  
Old 07-01-2017, 11:26 PM
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He certainly gave the impression of being positively smitten, if not besotted, by his wife on the NZ leg of the tour.
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  #2483  
Old 07-01-2017, 11:43 PM
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In the early days, it wasn't unusual to see Charles beaming at his wife with pride and catching the two of them stealing glances at each other across the room. There was magnetism there. The two of them also looked so perfectly in tune when they were on the dance floor too.
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  #2484  
Old 07-01-2017, 11:58 PM
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I think I posted something a while back, that was quite a long piece from a person who was a witness to Charles and Diana's first Aus and NZ tour. He said that although they did relax with baby Wills on their rest days at a particular location, that there were strains even then, that Charles would make sarcastic remarks to her about her popularity with the people and she wouldn't know how to reply and would cry. So what we saw (and I can remember that tour quite well. I saw them and thought how lovely it all was) was often only a bit of the picture.
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  #2485  
Old 07-02-2017, 12:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
I think I posted something a while back, that was quite a long piece from a person who was a witness to Charles and Diana's first Aus and NZ tour. He said that although they did relax with baby Wills on their rest days at a particular location, that there were strains even then, that Charles would make sarcastic remarks to her about her popularity with the people and she wouldn't know how to reply and would cry. So what we saw (and I can remember that tour quite well. I saw them and thought how lovely it all was) was often only a bit of the picture.
Doesn't jive with what we know of the character of the man. It is inexplicable what you are suggesting. It would be nice to see the source again as this is a very damning assertion (that plays too neatly into a certain narrative). It's contrary to everything I have ever read. So could you please supply the link to the source?
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  #2486  
Old 07-02-2017, 01:03 AM
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From Sarah Bradford's biography Diana. Chapter 7. 'Di-Mania'

'I think they were happy, they had William out there, a sort of family enclave', a member of staff recalled. 'But one was aware of little tensions. He couldn't understand that people wanted to see her. He couldn't understand that people wanted to see a beautiful woman rather than a man in a suit. And that was really sad actually. It was so unnecessary because together they were absolute dynamite.
But one was just aware of a sort of petulance in him and she I think, found it very difficult, knowing how to cope with that. And she was quite emotional at that time...there were tears...she didn't understand and it was all very stressful..'

Bradford goes on 'Things however were to go from bad to worse and Charles's resentment at his wife's popularity began to poison their relationship. His puzzlement at people's reaction to her was palpable, as he once said to a friend 'Why do they love her so much? All she ever did was say 'Yes' to me.'

There are plenty of references in biographies I've read, including pro Charles ones written by Junor and others to Charles's petulance at his wife's popularity, to sarcastic put-downs of her testified to by others. I have chosen this one because that's the former post I referred to.
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  #2487  
Old 07-02-2017, 01:31 AM
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Well I can assure you that on their first Australasian visit they were definitely still besotted. I and several people with me spoke with him and he looked soo happy that he had to bring Diana back and introduce her and we were nobody important whatsoever! He just wanted to introduce his lovely wife, and here I will say that of every photo I had ever seen, and by then it was probably thousands rather than hundreds, not one had fully done her justice. She was glorious but more than that she was charismatically magnetic. She radiated. Stunning, absolutely stunning and Charles looked at her with such joy and gentle love.

Being spiteful and mean enough to bring her to tears in public just plain doesn't ring true on any level at this or any stage. That they got to the stage that either of them could hurt or bring the other down or to tears is quite probable as their marriage was crumbling around them before their separation. But to say that at that stage sounds like the words of someone in the "it was an arranged marriage where Charles never loved her at all and only needed a brood mare" brigade! Nasty, very nasty.

Edit: "Tasteless, one vulgarity too far, Sarah Bradford", who wrote of Prince Philip's infidelity yet offered no source nor proof and who now says that perhaps she got it wrong and Philip just likes to flirt! A very sound source there when you consider cards and letters sent from both Charles and Diana are falling into the hands of the next generation and the auctioneers block soon after. And Philip lives in an age of letters and notes, not texts, tweets and emails.
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  #2488  
Old 07-02-2017, 01:31 AM
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Thank you, Curryong. I seem to have read the same books you have (and even recently in one straight go) and yet do not recall there being issues of this kind early in the marriage. Maybe in the mid to late 80's? What I do recall are stories of his solicitude and care with her, and one can see it in his body language with her.

It's a puzzle. It's not at all a given (imo) that these stories, if true, are giving the full picture. Diana had her part to play in all the action-reaction going on between them. There is something selective going on in order to give substance to a certain narrative that has as it's aim something pretty nasty. JMO. But something doesn't ring true.

Just saw this -

Quote:
Originally Posted by MARG View Post
Being spiteful and mean enough to bring her to tears in public just plain doesn't ring true on any level at this or any stage. That they got to the stage that either of them could hurt or bring the other down or to tears is quite probable as their marriage was crumbling around them before their separation. But to say that at that stage sounds like the words of someone in the "it was an arranged marriage where Charles never loved her at all and only needed a brood mare" brigade! Nasty, very nasty.
I agree. There is something not adding up when these claims are made for so early in the marriage.
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  #2489  
Old 07-02-2017, 01:33 AM
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After a lifetime of everyone kowtowing to him and being surrounded by cowering "yes sir" people for all of his life, its easy to see where all of a sudden, he's being pushed to the wayside because of his wife. Its something he couldn't even begin to fathom. It was totally foreign to him. Diana, at that time wasn't seeking to overshadow Charles, it just happened.
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  #2490  
Old 07-02-2017, 01:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
After a lifetime of everyone kowtowing to him and being surrounded by cowering "yes sir" people for all of his life, its easy to see where all of a sudden, he's being pushed to the wayside because of his wife. Its something he couldn't even begin to fathom. It was totally foreign to him. Diana, at that time wasn't seeking to overshadow Charles, it just happened.
You are accepting Curryong's claim as reflecting the truth. We simply never saw this take place in public, however, we for sure saw Diana's glee putting Charles down in public in the later 80's. It's on tape. Charles never spoke ill of Diana, ever, never once did he, or has he even to now, spoken ill of her. Plenty have spoken ill of Charles, and many are eager to hear it. Why is that?
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  #2491  
Old 07-02-2017, 01:43 AM
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Yes, I saw her on that tour, can remember it so well, and people waiting for ages to see her. I saw her and 'stunning and charismatic' doesn't begin to describe Diana. She drew every eye, and the crowds to see her were massive. Aussies loved her, there's no doubt about that!
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  #2492  
Old 07-02-2017, 01:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Yes, I saw her on that tour, can remember it so well, and people waiting for ages to see her. I saw her and 'stunning and charismatic' doesn't begin to describe Diana. She drew every eye, and the crowds to see her were massive. Aussies loved her, there's no doubt about that!
Because she stirred your soul so deeply, what does that mean? It's a serious question. Does charisma translate to virtue? Is being good-looking synonymous with goodness? What does that charisma mean to you?

The phenomenon of being able to stir hearts and minds deeply is an interesting one. Try being up-close-and-personal with such a person: it's never the projection that is revealed. There are those who can receive our projections but few who can live up to the expectations we develop around them. It's an old story.
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  #2493  
Old 07-02-2017, 01:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Nimue View Post
You are accepting Curryong's claim as reflecting the truth. We simply never saw this take place in public, however, we for sure saw Diana's glee putting Charles down in public in the later 80's. It's on tape. Charles never spoke ill of Diana, ever, never once did he, or has he even to now, spoken ill of her. Plenty have spoken ill of Charles, and many are eager to hear it. Why is that?
It is not MY claim. It is in a biography and I've given the source. This person was interviewed by Bradford. You seem incapable of believing that Charles was capable of resentment or sarcasm or irritability, and think it must be Diana manipulating it.

Charles's own two latest biographies written by two different women have given ample examples of his behaviour towards others which have not placed him in a good light to say the least.

Why should that be any different for Diana if he felt irritable, petulant and hard done by? Those crowds loved her and he in private, when they were in NSW with William, wasn't impressed, and feeling neglected, took his spleen about the situation out on her and she found it upsetting, as she wasn't, in 1984, trying to outshine her husband. I find it very believable.
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  #2494  
Old 07-02-2017, 01:59 AM
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It is not MY claim. It is in a biography and I've given the source. This person was interviewed by Bradford. You seem incapable of believing that Charles was capable of resentment or sarcasm or irritability, and think it must be Diana manipulating it.
That I did not say, just to be clear.

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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Charles's own two latest biographies written by two different women have given ample examples of his behaviour towards others which have not placed him in a good light to say the least.
I haven't read the latest but I have read the one previous and I do not recall what you are suggesting. His faults are mentioned, yes, but i don't recall anything said that would lead me to your conclusion that they 'have not placed him in a good light.'

I think we just interpret the evidence differently.

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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Why should that be any different for Diana if he felt irritable, petulant and hard done by? Those crowds loved her and he in private, when they were in NSW with William, wasn't impressed, and feeling neglected, took his spleen about the situation out on her and she found it upsetting. I find it very believable.
Okay. Understood. Point made and taken.
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  #2495  
Old 07-02-2017, 02:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Nimue View Post
Because she stirred your soul so deeply, what does that mean? It's a serious question. Does charisma translate to virtue? Is being good-looking synonymous with goodness? What does that charisma mean to you?

The phenomenon of being able to stir hearts and minds deeply is an interesting one. Try being up-close-and-personal with such a person: it's never the projection that is revealed. There are those who can receive our projections but few who can live up to the expectations we develop around them. It's an old story.
No, and several people who have been up close and personal with Charles haven't been overcome by his goodness and virtue either. Diana did do a great deal of good in her lifetime, and I respect that and admire her beauty and grace. No, she wasn't a plaster Saint. She was human, and Charles isn't the repository of all the virtues either. He too is human, AND capable of behaving badly.
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  #2496  
Old 07-02-2017, 02:01 AM
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I know I've read several places where the times that it showed that Charles was displeased with the attention Diana garnered was obvious. I'd have to pull out all the books and find the incidents. I vaguely remember a quote that Charles made at one time that he needed two wives. One for each side of the street.

I don't think his displeasure with Diana's attention was anything that the waiting public would have grasped on in the beginning but I do believe that it was there and Charles was very unused to it. As I said earlier, there were also times when Charles beamed with pride watching Diana draw 'em all in like flies to honey.
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  #2497  
Old 07-02-2017, 02:08 AM
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No, and several people who have been up close and personal with Charles haven't been overcome by his goodness and virtue either. Diana did do a great deal of good in her lifetime, and I respect that and admire her beauty and grace. No, she wasn't a plaster Saint. She was human, and Charles isn't the repository of all the virtues either. He too is human, AND capable of behaving badly.
The polarity you invest in is not mine. Just to be clear: that polarity is of your making. You are making of it a contest. Why?

If you believe Diana did a lot of good in her lifetime (and that she was pretty and made a good impression to boot, as though those aspects are character virtues, and maybe they are, they are certainly handy to possess), why do you not say the same of Charles whose accomplishments are considerable, but who perhaps is not graced with as handsome a visage as George Clooney, or as amiable a PR cloak?
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  #2498  
Old 07-02-2017, 02:22 AM
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Perhaps because whenever anything is posted that involves Diana but puts Charles (in your eyes) in a bad light you immediately come in to challenge it, infer it must be untrue, and want the source/links etc.

I have incidentally, in the thread Charles and the Freemasons, posted pointing to speeches he made on various important topics.

I'm a Diana fan, I would guess considerably older than you, who can remember Diana's first appearance on the scene. I remember her fondly and I don't need to have an inquisition on my feelings.
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  #2499  
Old 07-02-2017, 02:46 AM
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Perhaps because whenever anything is posted that involves Diana but puts Charles (in your eyes) in a bad light you immediately come in to challenge it, infer it must be untrue, and want the source/links etc.
That's the way you see it and seeing it that way, you are offended? Whether I am actually doing that is another matter, or what I think I am doing. That's beside the point. The animus against Charles is so extreme that it needs countering imo. That's my view.

But why is it about me and not about the issue being discussed? Why does it have to be about me? This is not the first time that a poster who (dares) 'defend' Charles is subject to objections on a personal level, as though doing such counter-arguments is a 'problem'. You go to a personal place and it's really not necessary imo. The discussion can flow effortlessly on the merits of the case rather than on the perceived merits of the poster. Just saying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
I have incidentally, in the thread Charles and the Freemasons, posted pointing to speeches he made on various important topics.
Not sure what you are indicating here.

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I'm a Diana fan, I would guess considerably older than you, who can remember Diana's first appearance on the scene. I remember her fondly and I don't need to have an inquisition on my feelings.
Well, I guess we all have our boundaries, not so? Many of my questions are rhetorical, said to the cosmos as an open question, but if you feel that I shouldn't be asking you personally, how about giving me the courtesey of not having my views (which might pop up to counter your views) as an opportunity to go after me as a poster rather than stay on topic? Just a suggestion. It also wastes time and posting space. Irrelevant.

NOTE: You chose to focus on me rather than answer my question on the topic: If you believe Diana did a lot of good in her lifetime (and that she was pretty and made a good impression to boot, as though those aspects are character virtues, and maybe they are, they are certainly handy to possess), why do you not say the same of Charles whose accomplishments are considerable, but who perhaps is not graced with as handsome a visage as George Clooney, or as amiable a PR cloak?
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  #2500  
Old 07-02-2017, 02:57 AM
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This is not an equal opportunity forum. If I praise Diana I don't inevitably have to do the same for Charles. This is a forum in which we can express our views, including on royals we particularly care for.

Answer to Note: I have already pointed to some of Charles's many accomplishments on the Charles and the Freemasons thread when I wrote of his speeches on architecture, agriculture, alternative medicines etc. Surely I don't have to repeat myself here?

You inferred that what I was saying wasn't true when you asked for the source on Charles's petulance, which I gave. I do feel attacked, and I stand by my views.
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