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  #2381  
Old 05-01-2017, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaiaMia_53 View Post
In many ways history is personal. And instructive if looked at with an open mind.

Eventually, the Charles and Diana saga might become a BBC/ Masterpiece Theatre miniseries. And the interpretation/ re-interpretation of events will likely spark continued debate much like The Crown did for the Princess Margaret--Captain Peter Townsend doomed love affair.

Indeed, polite discourse debated with open minds, is valuable.
In fact it will be the case with the second season of the FX serie "Feud". The First season about Joan Crawford/Bette Davis was outstanding. One can expect a deep, if not critical, aspect of the Charles/Diana saga, far from the cheesy, lifetime movies.
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  #2382  
Old 05-01-2017, 08:13 AM
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I have a problem with this upcoming program on "Feuds" dealing with Charles and Diana's marriage. With the recent one involving Joan Crawford and Bette Davis, both persons are deceased and it wasn't a feud that involved their intimate life together. With doing a segment on Charles and Diana, we know what they're going to be focusing on is the troubles within the marriage. My problem with that is that Charles is very much still alive and his sons are still very much still alive. Charles is also slated to become, if I could put it bluntly, the monarch in the not so distant future and the head of state for the UK.

My opinion is that airing something like this is going to cause more problems than it would to resolve things and set the record straight. I really wish they'd never thought of making it.

Just my opinion of course.
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  #2383  
Old 05-01-2017, 08:40 AM
Majesty
 
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
I have a problem with this upcoming program on "Feuds" dealing with Charles and Diana's marriage.
My opinion is that airing something like this is going to cause more problems than it would to resolve things and set the record straight. I really wish they'd never thought of making it.

Just my opinion of course.
Is it happening for definite then? I know its the US but it does seem a bit shocking to be digging into the marital troubles of somene who probably will be king in a few years.. and as you say, Di's sons are still very much alive. however I suppose they have become inured to knowing that there will awlay be gossip and TV stuff about their family an their parent' marriage.
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  #2384  
Old 05-01-2017, 08:49 AM
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All I really know about the show is what has been posted here so if it is to be a reality, I can't really say. I just find it kind of disrespectful not to take the feelings of people who are still living and close to the situation into consideration. As I've stated before, I really wish that the marital problems that Charles and Diana had remained private between the two of them rather than being played out on the world's stage for all to see.

The producers and the directors may think its a grand idea and think it will pull in a big viewing audience but they've gone over the top in my book and I will not watch such a presentation.
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  #2385  
Old 05-01-2017, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by HRHHermione View Post

Diana had many friends and could have absolutely created a heathy support network had she been making good decisions. She had access to mental health help. She didn't choose to go that route. It really was enormously destructive.
I don't think Diana really did have many close friends, at least not at the end of her life. She had quarreled with many of the people she knew, even members of her own family, and had cut them off completely.

The people in her life at that point seem to have been charlatans and fortune-tellers and others like that.
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  #2386  
Old 05-01-2017, 09:49 AM
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Sadly that seems very true. She fell out with all or most of her close friends at least once-and was even estranged from her mother and her siblings at the time of the Paris tragedy.

I think the late Lucia Flecha da Lima and Elsa, Lady Bowker were closest to her at the end of her life.
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  #2387  
Old 05-01-2017, 11:15 AM
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One thing I think is a hallmark of a true friend is that a true friend will tell you what you need to hear rather than what you want to hear. As, to me, it seems that Diana surrounded herself with people that, for the most part, kowtowed to her because they were either staff or employed by Diana, the "what she wanted to hear" played into the friendship more than telling it like it really is. Those that really had Diana's best interests at heart and would tell her things that weren't so palatable to her ears found themselves shut out or ignored as if they would say things that were negative about Diana, to Diana, they weren't her friends and were in the "against Diana" category.

Being in the position that Diana was as The Princess of Wales, she quickly found out that it was hard to separate those that were her true friends and those that deferred to her position and I'd wager my last cheese curl that brought about some serious trust issues. It was far easier to cut people out of her life altogether than take a chance that the person really meant well.

Perhaps that is the reason why towards the end of her life she was most comfortable with those that would tell her what she wanted to hear rather than what she needed to hear. It would also explain why those close to her that suggested getting help on issues were turned a deaf ear to. They wanted to "fix" Diana and in her own mind, Diana didn't need fixing. She needed to be loved and admired and looked up to and those that suggested that things weren't quite right in her life were seen as attacks without love and admiration and that she was being looked down on as not perfect.

This is just my thoughts that have run through my head from reading about this complex person.
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  #2388  
Old 05-01-2017, 11:42 AM
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But Charles did that with people too. I'm re-reading Bradford at the moment and have got to the part where Charles had given the interview to Jonathon Dimbleby that was so disastrous for him. The Duchess of Westminster was a fellow guest at a house party with Charles at the time.

Charles asked her what she thought of the interview and she told him, politely, that in her opinion it wasn't good. She stated that he refused to speak one word to her for the rest of the weekend. There were also witnesses who remembered the interview being briefly discussed and Charles pointing to his private secretary across the dinner table, and snarling 'He made me do it!' when in fact he himself had been persuaded to talk about his marriage by Dimbleby and it was his decision to go ahead.

Also Sally Bedell Smith has several anecdotes of Charles refusing to listen to advice he doesn't want to hear, and walking off. On one occasion he said 'I have to wash the dog' and left the room rather than listen to something that didn't fit in with his ideas.
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  #2389  
Old 05-01-2017, 11:54 AM
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Definitely another classic example why Charles and Diana were at odds with each other. They were, in many, many ways, too much alike.
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  #2390  
Old 05-01-2017, 01:24 PM
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well IMO its hardly unusual for people not to want to be told things "for their own good", esp if they are hurtful or critical things.
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  #2391  
Old 05-01-2017, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
well IMO its hardly unusual for people not to want to be told things "for their own good", esp if they are hurtful or critical things.

True.

Plus, deep down people usually recognize these things for themselves, and don't want to hear it rubbed in.
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  #2392  
Old 05-01-2017, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirabel View Post
True.

Plus, deep down people usually recognize these things for themselves, and don't want to hear it rubbed in.
I think that most people do ask for advice and then only follow it if its what they really want to do.. Charles and Di threw tantrums sometimes when criticised but that's problaby more to do with both of them being spoiled by their rank and the fact that most people tended to suck up to them.. so they couldn't handle it if told they were in the wrong. But most of us would like to get angry when "told something for one's own good" we just don't feel we'd get away with it and pretend to be polite and accept it.
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  #2393  
Old 05-02-2017, 01:15 AM
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I have to agree that Charles and Diana's marital problems were the same for millions of couples around our Earth. The tragic difference was their turmoil was played out for all of us around the Globe by an eager press salivating for sensational headlines and the "dirtier" the story the better on both the Prince and Princess of Wales. Unfortunately, both Charles and Diana plus each other's staff used the press to fire salvos at one another. The uglier and dirtier, the better. However, this doesn't make them unique because celebrities have done this for decades and it's still done. What was very unfortunate was it was two Royals high up in the Royal Family chain not a Royal husband and wife way down in the line. It was the Heir to the Throne and the next Queen Consort.
It was the ultimate airing of dirty laundry around the world.
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  #2394  
Old 05-02-2017, 02:08 PM
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W e are all guilty I suppose, but then the 2 of them were foolish in wanting to push their private troubles out to the public..
I think that Diana ddi appear the more sympathetic of the 2, but in time we realised most of us that she was a human being and not a saint and that a lot of the marital prolbems were to do with her as much or more than with Charles.
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  #2395  
Old 05-05-2017, 05:23 AM
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Here's a quick question:

I was telling my mom about some of the royal houses Diana is related to. That caused my mom to say "So it (Charles & Diana's marriage) was a setup!"
I'm slowly starting to think it really WAS a setup. Because Charles could have wanted a woman who had a more impressive bloodline than he did.
Thoughts?
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  #2396  
Old 05-05-2017, 05:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenElizabeth2Fan View Post
Here's a quick question:

I was telling my mom about some of the royal houses Diana is related to. That caused my mom to say "So it (Charles & Diana's marriage) was a setup!"
I'm slowly starting to think it really WAS a setup. Because Charles could have wanted a woman who had a more impressive bloodline than he did.
Thoughts?
Diana did not have a more impressive bloodline than Charles but if that was what he was after Europe was full of elligible princesses with 1500 years of breeding to chose from. That said although not a complete setup it has been said that their respective grandmothers were pulling a few strings to get the pair together.
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  #2397  
Old 05-05-2017, 05:44 AM
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I don't actually think that Charles and Diana's marriage was a "set up" in the sense of moving people around on a chessboard to make all the right moves and win a game but if we do look at it objectively, we can see that, at the time, everything that was deemed right and proper was checked off and given the royal stamp of approval.

Diana came from the right background. Diana didn't have much in her past that could come back and bite them in the butt so was pretty much looked at as the "virginal" bride to a future king. Diana and Charles seemed to take to each other well enough that they'd be compatible in a marriage. Diana was young enough that she could "grow" into her role as The Princess of Wales and be advised on how to do it. Charles wasn't getting any younger and knew he had a duty to provide the heir and the spare for the monarchy.

Many marriages around the world have started out with less. With Charles and Diana, no one could have begun to guess that two people who had only "dated" a short time and known each other for a short time could be like oil and vinegar when it came to day to day life as partners. Each had their own perception of what marriage should be like. Both Charles and Diana wanted partners that would be there for them. Diana wanted adoration and a husband that worshiped the ground she walked on. Charles was used to having everything his way and most likely felt that Diana would fall in line with that. There's probably a million other reasons that could be pointed out where they were totally incompatible.

I do think they went into the marriage with the best of intentions but had they perhaps spent more time together and really got to know each other, they would never have married.
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  #2398  
Old 05-05-2017, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
I do think they went into the marriage with the best of intentions but had they perhaps spent more time together and really got to know each other, they would never have married.
I now disagree with that. I think Diana was determined to land Charles, and if it took longer, she would have maintained the necessary pretenses to please him. Maybe Charles would have seen the disjunct with a longer courtship. We'll never know.

I have begun to have a radical view of how these two entered the marriage. And it's not flattering to Diana. Keeping in mind that the Diana 'spin' (in the Morton book), that has held such sway in the popular imagination, was intended to deflect attention away from her (by then) numerous dalliances with other men, not to mention the long-standing affair with James Hewitt, I question whether Diana actually did enter the marriage intending to stay 'true' to Charles.

This is something that has just occurred to me as I considered how rapidly into the marriage Diana engaged in serious flirtation. I think (in her immature way) she thought of herself as untouchable (protected by the respect in which the BRF was held) and beyond consequences. She only ever showed distress in public after she was 'caught' or was suffering the consequences of her actions (Morton book - separation; Hewitt revelation and police action regarding phone calls - Panorama interview).

JMO of course but the whole thing makes no sense unless one factors in Diana possibly not being as devoted to monogamy herself. After all, that is what she saw modeled by her parents, and likely all around her growing up. And when one looks at them both through the 80's it is never Diana who looks disquieted. She always looks radiantly happy. It's Charles who looks like he is disillusioned.
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  #2399  
Old 05-05-2017, 10:15 AM
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I now disagree with that. I think Diana was determined to land Charles, and if it took longer, she would have maintained the necessary pretenses to please him. Maybe Charles would have seen the disjunct with a longer courtship. We'll never know.
Oh I have no qualms about thinking Diana was dead set on landing The Prince of Wales. Not Charles really but The Prince of Wales. She was naive and had fairy tale dreams in her head and the idea of being The Princess of Wales was the predominant factor in her aims to land Charles. I've read in several places that at one time, Diana rode a tricycle through the halls of Buckingham Palace chanting "I'm going to be Princes of Wales". How true that is is not certain in my mind but it sounds like it describes her mindset.

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Originally Posted by Lady Nimue View Post
I have begun to have a radical view of how these two entered the marriage. And it's not flattering to Diana. Keeping in mind that the Diana 'spin' (in the Morton book), that has held such sway in the popular imagination, was intended to deflect attention away from her (by then) numerous dalliances with other men, not to mention the long-standing affair with James Hewitt, I question whether Diana actually did enter the marriage intending to stay 'true' to Charles.
To be honest, I'm more inclined to believe that she simply didn't know what the heck she was doing. She applied the tactics she used to win Charles over with basically anyone she met and didn't give any thought to its outcome. She craved attention. She craved acceptance and she had absolutely no moral compass to guide her in these things. I think she basically saw every man she met as a possible Barbara Cartland hero that would sweep her off her feet and fill her lonely hours and rescue her. When things really started going south and her reputation was at stake, it was then that her manipulation skills came into play and she contrived ways to not look like the "bad guy" in anything and be portrayed as the "victim" much like some of the heroines in the same Barbara Cartland romances had to endure. If she had entered the marriage with the intention of not being true to Charles, I don't think the things about Charles that bothered her to the point of obsession would have happened.

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Originally Posted by Lady Nimue View Post
This is something that has just occurred to me as I considered how rapidly into the marriage Diana engaged in serious flirtation. I think (in her immature way) she thought of herself as untouchable (protected by the respect in which the BRF was held) and beyond consequences. She only ever showed distress in public after she was 'caught' or was suffering the consequences of her actions (Morton book - separation; Hewitt revelation and police action regarding phone calls - Panorama interview).
I agree with you that she probably thought that she was "protected" and above reproach no matter what she did and quickly found out otherwise that it wasn't the case. This is what makes me think that she maybe had a narcissistic personality disorder in the respect that everything she did was because it felt good at the time and benefited Diana. Outcomes and backlash never really fit into the picture because I don't think Diana was that much of a forward thinker to weigh the causes and effects of what she'd do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Nimue View Post
JMO of course but the whole thing makes no sense unless one factors in Diana possibly not being as devoted to monogamy herself. After all, that is what she saw modeled by her parents, and likely all around her growing up. And when one looks at them both through the 80's it is never Diana who looks disquieted. She always looks radiantly happy. It's Charles who looks like he is disillusioned.
I don't think it was a lack of devotion to monogamy or her parents but from her actions, I would be more apt to say that the one person Diana was most devoted to was herself. Although she is cited for her compassion and her affect on the people she met, we have to remember too that the public adoration of Diana fed her self esteem. Diana in public was a totally different person than the Diana in private as I'm really finding out.
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  #2400  
Old 05-05-2017, 11:26 AM
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This is a very interesting discussion!
Also, is there any ancestry talk in this "Charles & Diana" thread? If so, can anyone post links to it? I've tried finding even something, but can't find anything.
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