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  #2301  
Old 04-20-2017, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
Meh...I know a number of folks in real life who have large age differences where it works fine.

The thing I have always faulted Charles for was he let himself be pushed/persuaded and didn't stand up and say no to his father and public pressure. He *needed* to get married and she filled the bill well enough at the time.

LaRae
Same here. He knew what was at stake, for once in his life he should have told the DoE to go pound sand and leave him alone.

And it wasn't just Prince Philip. Fleet Street had fallen madly in love with "Shy Di" and were pushing her like crazy after she was spotted at Balmoral with Charles.

I believe Charles felt he could eventually fall in love with Diana, or at least love her enough to have a satisfying and nurturing marriage.

And I think he did try...somewhat.
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  #2302  
Old 04-20-2017, 05:09 PM
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Yeah *somewhat*....I'm afraid I've never gotten past the 'whatever love is' during the engagement interview. She was not mature enough to realize that was a huge red flag.

Can you imagine? Your fiancee saying to anyone, let alone the world, 'whatever love is' after being asked if you are in love???

I'd of been giving that ring back before the end of the day.

Maybe if they had been more compatible then it wouldn't of mattered so much...but she wanted to be valued and loved and I don't think he ever really loved her. Not past a superficial level.


LaRae
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  #2303  
Old 04-20-2017, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
Yeah *somewhat*....I'm afraid I've never gotten past the 'whatever love is' during the engagement interview. She was not mature enough to realize that was a huge red flag.

Can you imagine? Your fiancee saying to anyone, let alone the world, 'whatever love is' after being asked if you are in love???

I'd of been giving that ring back before the end of the day.

Maybe if they had been more compatible then it wouldn't of mattered so much...but she wanted to be valued and loved and I don't think he ever really loved her. Not past a superficial level.


LaRae
I would be keeping the ring and giving out a few choice words not suitable for posting here.
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  #2304  
Old 04-20-2017, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
I would be keeping the ring and giving out a few choice words not suitable for posting here.

HA not me..I'd of flung at his face, had my say (probably some not nice words as well) and been done with him.



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  #2305  
Old 04-20-2017, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
Yeah *somewhat*....I'm afraid I've never gotten past the 'whatever love is' during the engagement interview. She was not mature enough to realize that was a huge red flag.

Can you imagine? Your fiancee saying to anyone, let alone the world, 'whatever love is' after being asked if you are in love???

I'd of been giving that ring back before the end of the day.

Maybe if they had been more compatible then it wouldn't of mattered so much...but she wanted to be valued and loved and I don't think he ever really loved her. Not past a superficial level.


LaRae
She was perplexed by his response. She giggled it off during the interview, but was thrown off by it all. You'd think her mother, sisters or someone older in her life would've pointed out to her to talk to her husband-to-be and set some things straight. No one was really thinking and were way too caught up in the enormity of her being engaged to the Prince of Wales and future King. The stiff upper lips took over. No proper support team.
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  #2306  
Old 04-20-2017, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
She was perplexed by his response. She giggled it off during the interview, but was thrown off by it all. You'd think her mother, sisters or someone older in her life would've pointed out to her to talk to her husband-to-be and set some things straight. No one was really thinking and were way too caught up in the enormity of her being engaged to the Prince of Wales and future King. The stiff upper lips took over. No proper support team.
She giggled and tried to go along with it, and fairly nervous.

Yeah I don't know about her family. Her mother, above all, should of really sat her down and talked to her about it all...and who knows maybe she did but Diana was caught up in everything and buried her head in the sand.

When she did raise the issues her sisters told her it was too late to back out. Sarah should of known if anyone did how the ropes were with Charles and things on the inside of the family....and helped her figure out how to get out of it.

I think they must of thought it almost impossible to call it off without backlash.


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  #2307  
Old 04-20-2017, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
No I don't think he would of either...and if they could of 'dated' (such as it was then) longer that would of ended things. We already know Diana was ready to back out ...wonder if Charles was as well.

LaRae
I have read that during the last week leading up to the marriage Charles wanted to pull out and cancel it because he wasn't sure it would work but both his parents said that that was just 'nerves'.

I know some people who knew Charles around this time who firmly believed then and still believe now that if the press had butted out he would have dropped her by the summer. It was the press coverage that lead Philip to write the letter that really forced Charles' hand. But without the press frenzy they would have come to see that weren't suited to each other.

That is why I am pleased that there hasn't been the pressure on William and Harry to marry their girlfriends just because they have been dating them for so long and in Harry's case he has broken up with two of them despite the press coverage.
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  #2308  
Old 04-20-2017, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
She giggled and tried to go along with it, and fairly nervous.

Yeah I don't know about her family. Her mother, above all, should of really sat her down and talked to her about it all...and who knows maybe she did but Diana was caught up in everything and buried her head in the sand.

When she did raise the issues her sisters told her it was too late to back out. Sarah should of known if anyone did how the ropes were with Charles and things on the inside of the family....and helped her figure out how to get out of it.

I think they must of thought it almost impossible to call it off without backlash.


LaRae
But she did try to talk to her sisters about her doubts over tea at Buckingham Palace. They came back with the now famous reply "Too late to chicken out Duch...your face is on the tea towels".

It was either Sally Bedell-Smith or Tina Brown who also wrote that the night after the grand ball on the eve of the wedding, Diana was spooked that Charles had paid virtually no attention to her and had chatted with Camilla for much of the evening. Diana drove to Althorp and told her father Lord Spencer that she wanted to back out, but he insisted that she return to London and get on with it.

I guess he(and the sisters) felt it was just pre-marital jitters and that she would recover in time for the big day.

I can understand why they felt that way, I suppose.

I also remember like it was yesterday the "whatever love means" interview. I felt so sad when Diana tried to giggle out of it, but you could feel her embarrassment. I wanted to reach through the TV and slap Charles, I really did!
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  #2309  
Old 04-20-2017, 06:46 PM
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A shame she didn't have more support from her family.

I get being nervous before the wedding etc...I'm not sure how her family thought it was just nerves considering the inside track they would of had. Maybe just old thinking of well it's to be expected that a highly placed royal might have affairs and it's hardly a reason to divorce etc.


LaRae
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  #2310  
Old 04-20-2017, 06:51 PM
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The Spencers, in addition to being famously dysfunctional and emotionally stunted ,were and are true blue aristocrats who had existed literally on the perimeters(on the estate at Sandringham) of the British Royal family for centuries.

The invitations had gone out. The crowds were in place. World leaders were converging on London. They loved Diana in their messy way but they knew the drill...backing out after the official announcement of her engagement to the Heir to the Throne had been made was NOT an option at that point.
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  #2311  
Old 04-20-2017, 08:46 PM
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It didn't have to be a back out, but at least the elders in Diana's life could've given her some constructive advice on sitting down with Charles and figure things out. This is a couple that needed some counseling before and after their wedding. They needed some good guidance. They just had a lot of "yes" people around them. They really didn't have a good support group.

I'm not really crazy for Princess Michael of Kent, but she did speak up just a couple of years ago on Diana. She said Diana really didn't have any support around her and anyone who could understand her situation and position.

It's one of the reasons why I get upset when the media like coming down on the Middleton's. They're not a family who understands the royal world, but they are a family that's very loving and very supportive of the Cambridge family. Catherine needs her family around her family. Especially as her role grows and positions change. A good support team is very much needed in those kind of positions.
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  #2312  
Old 04-20-2017, 09:12 PM
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If Charles and Diana had sat down and talked about things they would have both, hopefully, realised that this was a mistake and both called it off.

It is clear in hindsight that both of them wanted out but both their families wanted it to happen with arguments like 'you can't, your face it on all the tea-towels' - how pathetic is that as a reason to encourage your sister to go through with a marriage. That comment says a lot about what the Spencers wanted - a royal bride - not happiness for Diana but a title and future King from their family.

That the Queen and Philip didn't listen to Charles when he raised the issue of not wanting to go through with it says a lot about them as well. They didn't care about their son's happiness - only about getting him married and settled regardless of how much it was wrong for him.

Even the Archbishop of Canterbury at the time has since said he had his reservations about them as a couple. He should therefore have done what other ministers in the CoE are instructed to do - refused to marry them until they were sure and he was sure that they were marrying for the right reasons and not because she wanted to be a Princess and he wanted to have a bride to be the mother of his children.

Had any pre-marriage counselling happened that was any good it would have been simple - 'don't do it - give yourself a year or two together and see'. As we now know that marriage was largely over within the first two years.
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  #2313  
Old 04-20-2017, 09:49 PM
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If all of that happened and common sense prevailed, who might have Charles then married? Who was on the horizon? This pairing may have been destiny.....there was certainly every energy being directed to it taking place.
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  #2314  
Old 04-20-2017, 10:04 PM
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Well, certainly every energy of the British Press, and it was largely the print media in those days, was directed at getting these two married off because the journos and editors were in love with Lady Di.

I've always read that Charles asked his mother's opinion on whether he should marry Diana (in the early stages of the romance) and she refused to give him one. The BRF weren't at that time very good at face to face confidential chats with each other. It's unfortunate that the Queen didn't reply that if he was so unsure about it that he had to ask her then the answer was clear.

This is all in hindsight though, isn't it, and hindsight always has 20/20 vision. At the time it's clear that all parties were hoping for the best.
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  #2315  
Old 04-20-2017, 10:11 PM
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Maybe it was a different time, but the idea of a 32 year old man marrying a 19 year old girl is kind of nauseating. It makes Charles come off as a bit of a creep to be honest.

I'm 19, and I'd have more in common with a baby than a man in his 30s.
Just as a matter of interest (to me) my mother was 18 and my father 32 when they wed. They had 5 children and loved each other til the end. So my advice would be to try not to make personal, ill- informed and insulting statements about situations of which you have no experience.

It appears that many aspects of pop-psychology are creeping into this thread. Statements are being made with no point of reference along with a litany of what he or she did and shouldn't have or should have done and didn't. We need to remember the rules of posting and referencing which seems to have gone by the board.

I do not accept "I read somewhere . ." as an acceptable reference. If it is worth posting it's worth referencing, and the DM doesn't count.

On a purely personal note, I find the statement that infidelity was not just a fact of life but a way of life for royalty and aristocracy pretty damning. Look at any of the great loves in history and they have to be seen through the lens of adultery. The only real "evidence" I have seen to corroborate that situation comes from reading Barbara Cartland novels in my very early youth.

Somehow I don't think that counts and, when the people you are maligning are still alive, it behoves one to take care in what you are actually saying. Princes William and Harry have both had assistance to help them deal with their family situation. I can't help but believe that ill-informed, speculative and slanderous statements made against either of their parents are very pleasant to deal with 20 years after the fact/
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  #2316  
Old 04-20-2017, 10:25 PM
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I don't think Anfisa wasn't meaning anything insulting or slanderous. She's obviously a very young woman and is just giving her opinion on age gaps.

As for me, in my previous post when I wrote that the Queen had refused to give her opinion about whether Charles should marry Diana I was quoting Jonathon Dimbleby 'The Prince of Wales: A Biography' P 282. 'The Queen characteristically refrained from tendering her opinion.'

It is also in Sarah Bradford's 'Diana'. As that particular book is on my Kindle I can't give a page number. Amazon frequently sell books on Kindle with no page numbering. However it is in Bradford, Chapter 5. 'Whatever Love Means'.

I don't believe that Barbara Cartland wrote 'bodice-rippers' or books about adulterous love at all. All her young heroines were pure and the hero proposed marriage at the end.

The views expressed here of the British aristocracy being louche is in my view more likely to come from people reading memoirs of aristocratic life between the wars that have been published in the last couple of decades, as well as, of course, details of Viscount and Viscountess Althorp's divorce petition and that of Peter and Janet Shand Kydd in 1968 and also later of Viscount and Viscountess Dartmouth, (Raine) as it pertains to Diana's life.
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  #2317  
Old 04-21-2017, 02:40 AM
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Thank you for your referencing. The actual book and author or interview etc. are enough for people to go and look and read for themselves.

As for Barbara Cartland's 'Bodice Rippers', the hero's invariably started out as dyed-in-the-wool rakes with a mistress, etc. which they end up rejecting in favour of 'true love' and become besotted, reformed rakes!
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  #2318  
Old 04-21-2017, 02:51 AM
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J
I do not accept "I read somewhere . ." as an acceptable reference. If it is worth posting it's worth referencing, and the DM doesn't count.
If I had read it in the DM I would have referenced that.

I have a very large collection of royal related books, articles etc and don't have the time or interest to go back and read through pages and pages of 100s of books to find a reference for a forum. If I wanted to use it in my PhD thesis (not being done on Charles and Diana thankfully but a way more interesting topic) I would reference it but in a discussion board - sorry not necessary and I won't be doing it.

I believe that with over 10,000 posts I have made it clear that I have read extremely widely on British royals all my life.

Where and when I read something I have no idea anymore.
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  #2319  
Old 04-21-2017, 10:46 AM
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Same for me.

I have read far, far too many books on history and the BRF in particular to provide a page # for every quote I reference, as much as I would like to.

But sorry, it can't and won't happen. I will assure everyone who cares about such things that I never, ever post something that is false, and I have a near photographic memory....and I most definitely do not quote from the Daily Mail.

Ever.
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  #2320  
Old 04-21-2017, 01:08 PM
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I think we need to get back on topic please. As a reminder, the rules state: "Whenever possible, opinions should be based on factual information obtained from reputable sources and should be backed up by references to those sources".
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