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  #2241  
Old 04-06-2017, 03:15 AM
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The trouble is, they had barely twelve dates before getting engaged. He was 32 and in spite of the pressure to wed, should have taken more time. If they had dated for ten months to a year, the chasm between them on almost every level might have been clear.

All the same, after they had become engaged Charles showed little propensity to change his lifestyle even a tiny bit. From Sally Bedell Smith's new biography of Charles,
'On weekdays Diana scarcely saw Charles. Even after their engagement she wasn't a priority for him. 'I tend to lead a sort of idiotic existence of trying to get involved in too many things and dashing about' he said shortly before his wedding day. 'This is going to be my problem- trying to sort myself and work out so that we have a proper family life.'
Yet he showed no inclination to shed even the smallest commitment, whether for his work or his sporting pursuits, in favour of spending time with his new fiancée.'

'One of Charles's biggest mistakes was a six week long overseas trip to Aus, NZ and the US, beginning on March 24th. Granted, it had been planned six months in advance, along with the rest of his crowded diary, but for the sake of his relationship with Diana he could have trimmed his duties or at least curtailed his trip.'

On the night of the second wedding rehearsal, a party hosted by the Queen at BP for hundreds of friends and relatives saw Diana alone. Sally Westminster, widow of the 4th Duke, said afterwards that 'Charles left his bride for several hours to spend time with the Goons comedians in another room.' 'The pathetic little Lady Diana was left alone to make conversation with people she did not know.'

Shades of Charles not taking note of people he supposedly cared for once again, a la being oblivious to Anna Whiplash Wallace's feelings when he danced with Camilla all night at a ball.
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  #2242  
Old 04-06-2017, 06:50 AM
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I think it is better to show the "real" you warts and all, which is what Charles did, than to create false impressions to snag the prize which is what Diana did. I think that there is enough blame to go around in the failure of the Wales marriage, and while I judge Charles for being a self-involved jerk and other things, the data was there and Diana made an informed decision.
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  #2243  
Old 04-06-2017, 02:05 PM
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she iddn't create a false impression, she did IMO ignore the affair with Camilla and blinded herself to it.. but she got on well with chalres at first because she had made herself belive that she liked all the things that he liked..
and he - being used ot people agreeing with him and no doubt believing that they ReaLLy really agreed, rather than just being polite because of his positon, DID believe that she was a country loving girl who enjoyed sports and the rural life, an simple things and that she was eager to learn about the more intellectual matters that he liked to think about . but she was genuinely fooling herself that she DID enjoy the same things.. I think that it was only after the marriage when she had prolonged exposure to the RF and to Charles, that she realised "I hate a lot of this stuff".

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There are certain things in a marriage that no matter how much you try, you're never going to get your other half remotely interested in. Even in my "golden" years, I have yet to have a spouse get me interested in American football and after 20 years, if my hubby hasn't gotten the bookworm bug yet, it ain't going to happen. We're totally opposite in a lot of ways such as he's TV and I'm on the computer. He likes junk food and I love my salads.
of course that's true, but people have to have something in common and Charles and Di had almost nothing. they loved their children and that was about it. And for very rich people, hobbies are probably what does bind a couple since they don't realy have the same "sharing ordinary life", experiences.. they don't HAVE to work, they don't have to look after the kids themselves, their wrok such as it is, si chosen for them, so their hobbies are probably their main way of expressing their individualities..
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  #2244  
Old 04-08-2017, 01:01 AM
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Its slightly off topic perhaps but a propos the RF it seems as if THEY TOO believed Diana was a nice country loving girl who would enjoy being at Highgrove with Charles, being a wife and mother, finding pleasure in simple things.. like the garden and the country...They didn't see Di's more volatile side, they didn't think that she was unsuitabe for Charles because she was younger and not much educated. They were pleased to get her into the family because she seemed to love C and was young pretty and charming and the public loved her so she'd be an asset.. so if you like it wasn't just Charles who was fooled or who wasn't aware that he and DI were incompatible.
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  #2245  
Old 04-08-2017, 04:15 AM
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Diana was a very in between person. She felt like a misfit in the royal family. She was below her station with the staff and she had never found a truly stable and loving relationship with anyone on a give and take basis.
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  #2246  
Old 04-08-2017, 05:31 AM
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Please note that several posts have been edited/deleted. This thread is about Charles and Diana. It is not a discussion to create or speculate upon what other members of the Royal Family might or might not have said or thought. Also, ss requested many times before, let's keep Camilla out of the equation please.
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  #2247  
Old 04-11-2017, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Diana was a very in between person. She felt like a misfit in the royal family. She was below her station with the staff and she had never found a truly stable and loving relationship with anyone on a give and take basis.
I don't think she had much chance. She and Charles were a dreadful mismatch and she was married to him all her adult life. She hardly had time to have any sort of "open" dating with other men, as she was only free of her marraiage finally in 1996.
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  #2248  
Old 04-11-2017, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Diana was a very in between person. She felt like a misfit in the royal family. She was below her station with the staff and she had never found a truly stable and loving relationship with anyone on a give and take basis.
I think James Hewitt qualifies as a stable and loving relationship across the 6 years or so that it was maintained, at least on Hewitt's part. Diana was dallying even while in that relationship so I'm not sure Diana had it in her to ever stay loyal to one man. It just seems the case. There is this significant myth that Diana needed to find 'the one' to have peace and happiness 'ever after'. I just don't think she was wired for that (the way Charles was, for example).

Consider that she had married the one man who, as even she declared, would never divorce her. Yet, she succeeded in detonating that nuclear explosion: what never could happen did indeed happen under her aegis. It took some doing but she got it effected. To me that's evidence a-plenty that Diana was not looking for stability. If she was, she would have made other choices.

For me this is the single haunting question: why couldn't Diana live the quiet, nested life she claimed she wanted? A snap of the fingers could have achieved it and she'd be alive today. It's a curious thing.
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  #2249  
Old 04-14-2017, 10:12 AM
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What snap of the fingers? What "nested life"? It would harldy have been a "nested life" with Charles...
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  #2250  
Old 04-14-2017, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
What snap of the fingers?
It's a figure of speech. Not sure what to say to explain it. I am saying that she had the money, the influence, and the (social) power to shape her own life as she chose. After her separation, and most definitely after her divorce when she effectively exited the BRF, Diana could have lived a quiet life with only the few obligatory appearances tied to her position vis-a-vis her sons.

In fact had she been so inclined to live there is the possibility she would have been able to marry the doctor. As I say, she'd be alive today had she been able to un-focus from the crowd.

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What "nested life"? It would harldy have been a "nested life" with Charles...
In my book Diana lived a 'nested life', very much so, as does The Queen. With Charles she got addicted to the adulation of the crowd. It's a very sad story. In fact, it's the one thing she could have really taken a lesson from Charles concerning, and from the whole of the BRF: how to live a life privately away from the public eye.
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  #2251  
Old 04-14-2017, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Nimue View Post
It's a figure of speech. Not sure what to say to explain it. I am saying that she had the money, the influence, and the (social) power to shape her own life as she chose. After her separation, and most definitely after her divorce when she effectively exited the BRF, Diana could have lived a quiet life with only the few obligatory appearances tied to her position vis-a-vis her sons.

In fact had she been so inclined to live there is the possibility she would have been able to marry the doctor. As I say, she'd be alive today had she been able to un-focus from the crowd.



In my book Diana lived a 'nested life', very much so, as does The Queen. With Charles she got addicted to the adulation of the crowd. It's a very sad story. In fact, it's the one thing she could have really taken a lesson from Charles concerning, and from the whole of the BRF: how to live a life privately away from the public eye.
Diana felt a lot of love and comfort from the people because she wasn't getting much of that in her private life. When your husband is more interested in comforting his plants then you, that leads to issues.
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  #2252  
Old 04-14-2017, 12:26 PM
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I don't really know what it means, Sorry. to me a nested life would be a cosy family life, and she didn't have that. when she finally got free of marriage, her boys were growing up and they were also naturally at the age where they were starting to leanr about hteir royal obligations, and were bound to be taken over a bit by Charle's family, so she could not really have a cosy private life iwht them.. they were not going to be there for much longer.

I don't believe she would ever have been abel to "marry the doctor" as Khan was very much unwilling to commit to a woman who wasn't what his family felt was right.. ie a muslim from his country and "of good birth"..
He came from a traditional culture and seems to have bene very much tied to it.. no matter how he loved her. And he may have felt that having been the wife of a Prince she could never have just become the wife of a working doctor. SO I think she was in a position of having to look for a man who was ultra rich, who would not feel financialy and socialy inferior to her.. so it wasn't as if she could "just snap her fingers" and find a cosy "nested life".
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  #2253  
Old 04-14-2017, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dman View Post
Diana felt a lot of love and comfort from the people because she wasn't getting much of that in her private life.
Love and comfort 'from the people'? That was Diana's tragedy. She was addicted to the falseness of the crowd's adulation.

But behind your comment is your failure to put Diana in context: she had a lover for 5-6 years. She was feeling love and comfort (as long as it suited her to keep him on her string). And while she had the lover she was dallying elsewhere, too.

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When your husband is more interested in comforting his plants then you, that leads to issues.
I am likely the only one here who has a very different view of Diana's intentions when entering the marriage. This is wholly my own view based on the character of the woman as I have observed in the record available: namely, I believe Diana fully intended to partake in the aristocratic free-form marriage scenario common then. (Camilla had such a marriage, for example, and Diana would have known that, both before and after they were friendly).

Your comment is out of Diana's spin, she gleefully ridiculed Charles in several instances that got taken up like hounds to the scent by the tabloid press and 'the crowd'. Diana was only ever distracting attention away from her own considerable marital transgressions.

Diana painted a self-portrait of victim-hood that I have never been able to 'buy'. Diana was having plenty of fun with her flirtations and lovers. It was only when she was getting caught that she began the spin. She was a master of managing her press, I will say that.

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I don't really know what it means, Sorry. to me a nested life would be a cosy family life, and she didn't have that.
But she could have. That is a choice she could have made. For some reason, she didn't.

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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
when she finally got free of marriage, her boys were growing up and they were also naturally at the age where they were starting to leanr about hteir royal obligations, and were bound to be taken over a bit by Charle's family, so she could not really have a cosy private life iwht them.. they were not going to be there for much longer.
True, but here is the problem: a 'cosy private life' is what we make it, with friends and interests, not just children. To create a cosy private life was in her power. She had the wealth and freedom to have a pretty nice private life, children or not.

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I don't believe she would ever have been abel to "marry the doctor" as Khan was very much unwilling to commit to a woman who wasn't what his family felt was right.. ie a muslim from his country and "of good birth".. He came from a traditional culture and seems to have bene very much tied to it.. no matter how he loved her.
Okay, I was just giving that as an example.

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And he may have felt that having been the wife of a Prince she could never have just become the wife of a working doctor.
I think this is a bit ott thinking. We are getting into class and status issues that I cannot comment on. The idea that Diana was too high-flying (to marry 'beneath her') because of her connection to Charles just goes to prove one of my points about Diana: she was who she was on the world stage because Charles chose her as his first wife. Full stop. Not married to Charles, no world stage.

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SO I think she was in a position of having to look for a man who was ultra rich, who would not feel financialy and socialy inferior to her.. so it wasn't as if she could "just snap her fingers" and find a cosy "nested life".
Curious line of logic. Firstly, I don't think Haznat Khan felt inferior to her, and I don't think any worthy man would. Love is love, if its love.

What Diana was doing with Dodi Fayed (who was obeying his father) was very, very far from love and a necessity for her. (Methinks you are applying Jackie Kennedy Logic, when she married Aristotle Onassis, to Diana).

A cozy nested life is made, is created, by oneself. It's a choice. Yes, with a snap of the fingers she could have stopped calling the press to tell them where she would be so they could get photo-ops. She could have made her public profile less and worked more behind the scenes. She had the where-withal for all that, with Charles' and likely the resources of the BRF at her disposal. Instead she made other choices and she died. Sad story.
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  #2254  
Old 04-14-2017, 02:40 PM
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FOr Diana, I think that a "cosy nested life" would have included a husbadnd and children and that was nto that easy to find. Idont knowwhat you mean by your remarks about class and status. The fact is that as an "ex princess" who had been married to a future king, she was going to seem "above" many men who might have been her equals socialy and financially when she was single. that's a fact, she was still the mother of a future king and the divorced wife of a future king. her status didn't drop THAT far.
As regards status issues, and money issues I'd say that any man with any pride would feel that he should be on some kind of level pegging with his wife..
so as I've said Diana had to go to the "super rich" and was dating Dodi Fayed, but I am not sure if she was very serious about him and she seemed to be getting bored with him by the end of their holiday. Of course Khan did not feel inferior to her as a person, but I think one of his issues with her was that he felt that as a former princess, she would not be able to become the wife of a doctor.
As for your remarks "I believe Diana fully intended to partake in the aristocratic free-form marriage scenario common then" I think that you are completely wrong.
If that were the case, she would never have cared about Camilla. She would have been quiet about charles' affair because if she wanted to go on having affairs herself, her best protection was to be part of the RF who would protect her... and for Charles to be busy with his mistress and busy keeping his indiscretion from the Press.
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  #2255  
Old 04-14-2017, 02:54 PM
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"And while she had the lover she was dallying elsewhere, too." ?"
what evidence is there of this??
I assume you mean James Hewitt..and I don't know of her having another lover while she was with him. I don't believe she was "having fun with a number of lovers" as you appear to tthink..
Hewitt partly solved her problems of loneliness and gave her a pleasant relationship and a sex life for a time.. but he was disloyal and ultimately selfish.. and she was not IMO all htat happy. She was unhappy because the man she loved, the father of her children was not interested in her.. and because she could not have an open relationship with another man.. and she was constantly worrying that her affair with JH would get out.
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  #2256  
Old 04-14-2017, 02:57 PM
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Lady Nimue, we all know Diana had her own affairs. None of the those affairs really made her happy gave her that much comfort. She wanted love and comfort from her husband. Her downfall was she picked bad men.

She wasn't addicted by the love and comfort from the crowds. They liked her and she liked them. There's nothing wrong with forming a warm relationship with the public. She was their princess and they were her people. When she passed, the public came out for her and said goodbye. To this day, people like to dismiss the real feelings the public felt about Diana and her tragic passing. They like calling it media hyped hysteria and such. It's was just plain love and grief for Diana.

All the senior royals try to manage their PR. The royals love the good press and hate the bad press. It's a love/hate relationship that will carry on throughout the lives of the next generation of royals too. That's the reality of being a public figure.
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  #2257  
Old 04-14-2017, 03:39 PM
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I agree that I think she would rather have had the love of her husband, or a lover whom she could openly be seen with, than "the adulation of the crowds". I think that it idd become a substitute love for her.. it helped a bit to make up for the loneliness she suffered in her marriage and with her kids growing up and having to spend time with the RF.
and indeed she was no different to other Royals in trying to manage her PR and get a "good image". ]
I would not say she always picked bad men, Hewitt was selfish, yes, Hoare was discreett but he let her down. Dodi was a lightweight but I think that Khan was a good man who loved her, and maybe there was a man out there who could take on the baggage of a woman who was the ex wife of a prince and a global icon...
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  #2258  
Old 04-14-2017, 03:44 PM
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"And while she had the lover she was dallying elsewhere, too." ?"
what evidence is there of this??
I assume you mean James Hewitt..and I don't know of her having another lover while she was with him. I don't believe she was "having fun with a number of lovers" as you appear to tthink..
Hewitt partly solved her problems of loneliness and gave her a pleasant relationship and a sex life for a time.. but he was disloyal and ultimately selfish.. and she was not IMO all htat happy. She was unhappy because the man she loved, the father of her children was not interested in her.. and because she could not have an open relationship with another man.. and she was constantly worrying that her affair with JH would get out.
James Gilbey. The two relationships over lapped a great deal. Though it us said Diana was never as close to Gilbey. Some recordings caused a scandal.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squidgygate
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  #2259  
Old 04-14-2017, 03:52 PM
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Marriage is what both parties make out of it. There are no guarantees that the wedding will instantly bestow a happy marriage on a couple.

Both parties made their own mistakes and went about things the wrong way and neither were very good at the give and take of compromise. If C&D had been ordinary people living ordinary lives, the marriage itself probably would have been much, much shorter.
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Old 04-14-2017, 10:10 PM
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FOr Diana, I think that a "cosy nested life" would have included a husbadnd and children and that was nto that easy to find.
Maybe, but we actually don't really know what Diana was aiming for personally. My comment was that I have never understood why she did not opt for a cozy nested life, though I have my hunches as I've read about her. Who knows.

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Idont knowwhat you mean by your remarks about class and status.
I think you do given what you say here -

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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
The fact is that as an "ex princess" who had been married to a future king, she was going to seem "above" many men who might have been her equals socialy and financially when she was single. that's a fact, she was still the mother of a future king and the divorced wife of a future king. her status didn't drop THAT far.
You are describing class and status beliefs in the forgoing. They are beliefs that potentially (maybe) constrained her but I don't really know. Do you? I mean that sincerely. Does anyone? I'm asking sincerely, anyone know? For someone who seemed to want 'normality' for her sons, and had such an averse reaction to 'royal life' as lived by the current monarch, something doesn't add up here with what you are saying about 'status'.

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As regards status issues, and money issues I'd say that any man with any pride would feel that he should be on some kind of level pegging with his wife.. so as I've said Diana had to go to the "super rich" and was dating Dodi Fayed, but I am not sure if she was very serious about him and she seemed to be getting bored with him by the end of their holiday. Of course Khan did not feel inferior to her as a person, but I think one of his issues with her was that he felt that as a former princess, she would not be able to become the wife of a doctor.
I will respect what you believe as stated here, dear Denville. I am a feminist (a Marxist feminist, no less, according to one quiz I just took on FB ) and I just see through a different lens than you do regarding male/female relations. In fact it just struck me that I may be at a disadvantage when assessing Diana because I am not of her time and place regarding male-female stuff.

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As for your remarks "I believe Diana fully intended to partake in the aristocratic free-form marriage scenario common then" I think that you are completely wrong.
Oh, yes, I think I am very much on the mark. It explains her attitude of untouchability. Watch her for any length of time (as I have on YouTube) and you will see a very sure-of-herself person (arched glances notwithstanding, there is a steeliness to her manner, she knows herself). We even have quotes from people who knew her during her early married life mentioning how 'commanding' she was, willful. (I am aware of the bulimia. What I am suggesting is not contradictory. It's all about control).

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If that were the case, she would never have cared about Camilla. She would have been quiet about charles' affair because if she wanted to go on having affairs herself, her best protection was to be part of the RF who would protect her... and for Charles to be busy with his mistress and busy keeping his indiscretion from the Press.
Look at the timeline. She threw Camilla under the bus because Camilla was convenient for her purposes at the time. Diana was in hot water. The newspapers were starting to break the stories of her affairs, and the tapes were hanging over her, the Squidgy tapes. Did someone tip her off to those? I am actually very fuzzy about those tapes and Charles' tapes, the timeline on the two. She did what she did to deflect away from herself. She had to accuse first. She had to spin first. She did.

Charles did not have to keep busy hiding anything. He was discreet already. I cannot find any allusions to Charles' infidelity at the time (prior to the tape). Was there? [EDIT: Yes, there was, in the late 80's there were articles about both Charles and Diana having 'outside interests' and no longer co-habiting.] There was plenty of talk about Diana especially with the tapes tumbling out. Is this the way a future Queen behaves? One can imagine the fear set in motion. The Morton book and Diana's spin in it were her mounting a defense for the seriousness of her transgression. Instead of it being about her it became about a boring stuffy royal life with a 'ridiculous' Prince, etc. Inspired. That's how I see it.
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