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  #2121  
Old 03-19-2017, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Daenerys Targaryen View Post
It is VERY hard for me to 'commiserate with his predicament' of being the most eligible bachelor in the world and heir to the British throne.
I find it the easiest thing in the world to so commiserate, because as a woman I have experienced being desired for attributes rather than for who I am. Especially, too, when one considers that Charles was already a sensitive sort, an introvert. Not an easy position for such a one to be in. Why not see it from his position? Maybe it would be easier for you to see the predicament when it is a young woman? Like it will be for several Crown Princesses in 10-15 years?

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Especially when he was having illicit relationships, of one sort or another, with CPB, Kanga Tyron (both married), and Janet Jenkins at the very least and possibly others which have not become public, while putatively 'searching for a bride'. If one is searching for a bride, they are generally not found in the marital bed of another couple. Perhaps that is just my silly viewpoint, but there it is.
So you disagree with his cultural sensibilities. That's okay but being angry with (or disapproving of) his actions makes no sense. It is different behavior from what you require in a man (and a woman, I assume, so you would/should be as equally disparaging of Diana and her wanderings post-wedding ceremony, pre-divorce) but that is not the case for all. He was doing nothing wrong by the norms of his aristocratic/royal class, just as Diana would feel free to explore beyond the marital bed very soon after the heir was born, and happily did so for a decade without remorse or regret. Diana married him knowing full well about his dalliances, so if it didn't matter enough to her, why should it matter to anyone else? A question.
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  #2122  
Old 03-19-2017, 10:54 PM
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I am not PERSONALLY angry with him. You have zero basis to speculate whether I am angry with either Charles or Diana. I am just joining the conversation.
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  #2123  
Old 03-20-2017, 01:20 AM
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I seem to remember Diana spent quite a lot of time while on Britannia with the crew members, just chatting with them and hanging out. The reason being Charles spent much time reading his serious books and corresponding with his mentors. For a young woman out in the middle of the ocean, that was not what she envisioned for a honeymoon, certainly not the picture of fun she had looked forward to. I think she was rebuked by either Charles or his staff for spending too much time with the help. Remember, Diana caused dismay to the Royal staff at Buck House when spending time chatting with the kitchen staff there. I may be mistaken, but I seem to recall reading these anecdotes in either a magazine or one of the many books about Diana.
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  #2124  
Old 03-20-2017, 01:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katrianna View Post
I seem to remember Diana spent quite a lot of time while on Britannia with the crew members, just chatting with them and hanging out. The reason being Charles spent much time reading his serious books and corresponding with his mentors. For a young woman out in the middle of the ocean, that was not what she envisioned for a honeymoon, certainly not the picture of fun she had looked forward to. I think she was rebuked by either Charles or his staff for spending too much time with the help. Remember, Diana caused dismay to the Royal staff at Buck House when spending time chatting with the kitchen staff there. I may be mistaken, but I seem to recall reading these anecdotes in either a magazine or one of the many books about Diana.
I think Diana simply found royal staff fun and easy to talk to. I think those stiff years within the royal family melted away with time. I think the family's interaction with staff is good thing, but it was just frowned upon in those days.

Charles and Diana's honeymoon may have started off a little stiff and weird, but if anyone comes across some of the very intimate photos of the two of them on their honeymoon, you will see things changed up pretty quick. They had some fun though.
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  #2125  
Old 03-20-2017, 06:03 AM
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Was he indeed having affairs with all those women at the same time? Doubt it. Was he actively looking for a bride, yes. Did Diana know about his friends, his personal life, absolutely, if for no other reason that he had dated her older sister and she was the next door neighbor. As for being the most eligible bachelor? I think both Charles sons,William and Harry. could vouch for the coldness of being pursued for what they are, what they have and not who they are.

It is my belief the Diana was the type of woman who never understood that love expands exponentially, that just because she was his wife, he didn't still hold her own sister, let alone Camilla, et al in close and warm friendship. Diana's first moves were to try to separate him from his closest friends, male and female both. She was angered when he took advice from close advisors. It seems as if she saw any outside friendships, male or female, as taking attention, affection and even love from her.

You see it with his sons as well. They hold dearly to those who have proved their true friendship throughout the years. They too rely on those true and close friendships based in their earliest years at school. It also explains their readiness to overlook their glaring faults as long as betrayal isn't one of them.

If you marry prince charming with the intention of turning him into something else, you are doomed to fail.
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  #2126  
Old 03-20-2017, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daenerys Targaryen View Post
It is VERY hard for me to 'commiserate with his predicament' of being the most eligible bachelor in the world and heir to the British throne. Especially when he was having illicit relationships, of one sort or another, with CPB, Kanga Tyron (both married), and Janet Jenkins at the very least and possibly others which have not become public, while putatively 'searching for a bride'. If one is searching for a bride, they are generally not found in the marital bed of another couple. Perhaps that is just my silly viewpoint, but there it is.
he was dating, like most men do. he had a few affairs with married women like a lot of men do. Every woman that he took out was nto a serious candidate for marriage, and didn't have to be.
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  #2127  
Old 03-20-2017, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Katrianna View Post
I seem to remember Diana spent quite a lot of time while on Britannia with the crew members, just chatting with them and hanging out. The reason being Charles spent much time reading his serious books and many books about Diana.
I tink that Charles had hoped they'd read together, or that she would read something and he would read HIS books. But Diana wasn't much of a reader and preferred to chat to people. She was rebuked by the staff at the Palaces for spending time in the kitchen because some of them felt that she should be on HER side of the Palace learning her trade as Princess and not chatting with the staff
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  #2128  
Old 03-20-2017, 04:09 PM
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Charles and Diana

If you are working in the kitchen of the palace trying to prepare food, you really don't need a Royal trying to chit chat with you. It's your butt that's going to be fired if you can't finish your work.

Just use Downton Abbey as an example, the Earl and Countess never went into the kitchen and Mrs Pattimore was perfectly fine with it.
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  #2129  
Old 03-20-2017, 04:25 PM
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It's all very well to say that Charles expected/wanted his young wife to read and discuss his books with him. Did he ever bother to find out if she was interested in the works of psychology etc that he loved during the time the couple dated? Most couples discuss likes and dislikes in films, music, books etc quite early in the relationship.

There aren't too many twenty year olds, especially those not interested in philosophy, who would read van der Post and Jung with great eagerness at any time, especially on their honeymoon. And if he did expect Diana to plunge into reading them then that just proves how little he knew her.

Or did Charles expect that Diana, by osmosis, simply because she had married him, to turn into a sort of miniature of himself? If he did, then he was foolish.

He wrote to a friend from Britannia something about Diana going here and there on the ship while he was on the deck, wrapped in pure joy in the works of van der Post. There, written large, is the chasm between their personas and the reason why they should never have married.
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  #2130  
Old 03-20-2017, 04:40 PM
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Several posters seem to think that Diana knew all about Charles's dalliances and his affair with Camilla Parker Bowles during the dating period before the engagement. In fact, from all that I've read, it only dawned on her just how close he and Camilla were when they were engaged and she became extremely upset about it.

Also, just because they were neighbours at Sandringham when Diana was a child doesn't mean she knew all about the ins and outs of the Royal Family. A few play dates with Andrew in early childhood at Sandringham does not make for comprehensive knowledge about Charles, who was over a decade older and away at university. The Spencers moved to Althorp in Northamptonshire when Diana was about 14 anyway, as her father inherited the earldom at that time.

Also, Charles did not have the sort of 'friendship' with her sister Sarah that he had with Camilla, nor did they have a close friendship after their romance ended and certainly not after Sarah married.
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  #2131  
Old 03-20-2017, 04:52 PM
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One thing that is for certain is that both Charles and Diana found each other to be totally different types of people from what they had expected from such a short and oftentimes very brief courtship. Each had their own opinion on what was to follow after the marriage and they both got it completely wrong.

The first year of marriage is the hardest one where a couple needs to adjust to the other person along with maintaining their own individuality and likes and dislikes. Charles had always had a life where people deferred to him, called him "sir" and things mostly always went the way he wanted them to go. With that mindset, it would be easy to just assume that a wife would follow suit and follow his lead, enjoy the things he does and conform into what a Princess of Wales should be like in both her private and public life. Diana, with a mindset of a young adult, romanticized her future marriage and, IMO, believed that she would be the have all and be all in Charles' life and he would put her first before everything else. Both had expectations that were a far cry from reality.

Charles grew to resent her demands on his time and she even (if what I've read is to be taken as truth) arranged things to exclude those that had been important in Charles' life up until the marriage so as to put her in the management seat. I can sympathize with Charles perhaps feeling that his life wasn't his own anymore and that Diana was trying desperately to do a "makeover" on his person to suit her idea of marriage. Diana, on the other hand, found out quickly that she needed to defer to the Prince of Wales role and found out that Charles, the man, being the introverted soul that he is, needed his books, his garden, his paintings, his walks in the woods and his alone times to breathe. This is what made the two of them so unsuitable for each other. She was city, he was country. She was nightlife and he was solitude. She enjoyed the crowds and meeting different people whereas he preferred small group gatherings of his friends.

They also had William quite soon after the marriage and that was one area that they were both in synch with each other. Their ideas of parenting and being hands on parents were strong in the both of them and that perhaps was the glue that kept them together until after Harry's birth.

Its quite easy to see why the marriage fell apart and its blame is to be laid at both of their doors. They just weren't capable of forming a strong foundation to base the marriage on. It happens. Couples either grow together or they grow apart. Marriage takes work.
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  #2132  
Old 03-20-2017, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
One thing that is for certain is that both Charles and Diana found each other to be totally different types of people from what they had expected from such a short and oftentimes very brief courtship. Each had their own opinion on what was to follow after the marriage and they both got it completely wrong.


Absolutely. And I think each expected the other to adapt.
But it would have required a complete personality change that neither could manage.

In the long term they simply could not bridge the gap.
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  #2133  
Old 03-20-2017, 09:35 PM
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The media has been rewriting the Charles and Di saga for years. It's a story as old as time, and we know stories are never the same after people tell it over and over again.
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  #2134  
Old 03-21-2017, 12:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippyboo View Post
If you are working in the kitchen of the palace trying to prepare food, you really don't need a Royal trying to chit chat with you. It's your butt that's going to be fired if you can't finish your work.

Just use Downton Abbey as an example, the Earl and Countess never went into the kitchen and Mrs Pattimore was perfectly fine with it.
Yes, but if your kitchen staff who would be the one to tell a Princess of Wales or future Princess of Wales to leave so the work can be finished.
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  #2135  
Old 03-21-2017, 01:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dman View Post
The media has been rewriting the Charles and Di saga for years. It's a story as old as time, and we know stories are never the same after people tell it over and over again.
You are so very right but on this board we have people who are older than Charles and watched the whole thing unfold and those whose only reference is that which is repeated annually and fell in love with the fairy tale Princess. It started with hope and joy and having seen them on their trip to NZ nobody will ever convince me that they were not "in love".

But marriages take time to mature and has it's seasons as the divorce rate both then and now attests. But it seems that only when it comes to Charles and Diana that even now there are people who think him the devil incarnate and her, literally, and Angel.

Diana has been dead for almost 20 years. It makes no sense that people talk about her in the first person as an Angel among us and talk with hate about Charles and Camilla. Great heavens, Hewitt was interviewed earlier this year and announced (shock, horror) "he was not Harry's father. Charles and Diana had separated in Dec 1992, divorced Aug 1996 years ago and Diana and her lover died Aug 1997.

Even she was moving on. Why can't we.
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  #2136  
Old 03-21-2017, 03:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
One thing that is for certain is that both Charles and Diana found each other to be totally different types of people from what they had expected from such a short and oftentimes very brief courtship. Each had their own opinion on what was to follow after the marriage and they both got it completely wrong.

The first year of marriage is the hardest one where a couple needs to adjust to the other person along with maintaining their own individuality and likes and dislikes. Charles had always had a life where people deferred to him, called him "sir" and things mostly always went the way he wanted them to go. With that mindset, it would be easy to just assume that a wife would follow suit and follow his lead, enjoy the things he does and conform into what a Princess of Wales should be like in both her private and public life. Diana, with a mindset of a young adult, romanticized her future marriage and, IMO, believed that she would be the have all and be all in Charles' life and he would put her first before everything else. Both had expectations that were a far cry from reality.

Charles grew to resent her demands on his time and she even (if what I've read is to be taken as truth) arranged things to exclude those that had been important in Charles' life up until the marriage so as to put her in the management seat. I can sympathize with Charles perhaps feeling that his life wasn't his own anymore and that Diana was trying desperately to do a "makeover" on his person to suit her idea of marriage. Diana, on the other hand, found out quickly that she needed to defer to the Prince of Wales role and found out that Charles, the man, being the introverted soul that he is, needed his books, his garden, his paintings, his walks in the woods and his alone times to breathe. This is what made the two of them so unsuitable for each other. She was city, he was country. She was nightlife and he was solitude. She enjoyed the crowds and meeting different people whereas he preferred small group gatherings of his friends.

They also had William quite soon after the marriage and that was one area that they were both in synch with each other. Their ideas of parenting and being hands on parents were strong in the both of them and that perhaps was the glue that kept them together until after Harry's birth.

Its quite easy to see why the marriage fell apart and its blame is to be laid at both of their doors. They just weren't capable of forming a strong foundation to base the marriage on. It happens. Couples either grow together or they grow apart. Marriage takes work.
You make some good points. And things were further complicated by friends and staff not accepting Diana or finding her weird to do things not the Royal way. That caused anxiety and paranoia in her, that was further fuelled by her marriage breaking down and Charles eventually going back to Camilla.
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  #2137  
Old 03-21-2017, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Several posters seem to think that Diana knew all about Charles's dalliances and his affair with Camilla Parker Bowles during the dating period before the engagement. In fact, from all that I've read, it only dawned on her just how close he and Camilla were when they were engaged and she became extremely upset about it.



Also, Charles did not have the sort of 'friendship' with her sister Sarah that he had with Camilla, nor did they have a close friendship after their romance ended and certainly not after Sarah married.
Good Lord I lived in Ireland, and I knw about Camilla.. how could she not know?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippyboo View Post
If you are working in the kitchen of the palace trying to prepare food, you really don't need a Royal trying to chit chat with you. It's your butt that's going to be fired if you can't finish your work.

Just use Downton Abbey as an example, the Earl and Countess never went into the kitchen and Mrs Pattimore was perfectly fine with it.
I doubt if she was hanging around while they were working.. she popped in for coffee breaks. I woudlnt' use Downton Abbye as an example for anything.

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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
It's all very well to say that Charles expected/wanted his young wife to read and discuss his books with him. Did he ever bother to find out if she was interested in the works of psychology etc that he loved during the time the couple dated? Most couples discuss likes and dislikes in films, music, books etc quite early in the relationship.


.
I think that Diana gave him the impression that she thogtht he was terribly clever and that she loved ot hear him talk about things, and he not unreasonably felt that she was very young but that she was at an age where she would problaby like to learn about things of the mind, even if she hadn't taken much interest in school.
Diana DID speak of Charles as being very "deep" and brainy, so I think that Charles thought that she might not have done well at school but that she was intelligent enough to learn and that their honeymoon would be a good time to get to read up on stuff.
they had several weeks not just a week or 2 and I don't think that it is unreasonable that Charles believed Diana's admirinlgy saying "oh you're so brainy" and that it meant she was receptive to sharing his interest in reading. Just as she had watched him shooting and fishing, so he thought that she liked the outdoors and country sports, yet when they were married she abruptly went off this which had seemed like a shared interest.
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  #2138  
Old 03-21-2017, 04:21 PM
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Diana also apparently liked to read "Private Eye", which sometimes mentioned Charles and Camilla. There's that famous commentary by Nigel Dempster, in which he said that if he saw Prince Charles' Aston Martin outside Camilla's place while Andrew Parker Bowles was away, his duty was to report it.

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Good Lord I lived in Ireland, and I knw about Camilla.. how could she not know?
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  #2139  
Old 03-21-2017, 05:23 PM
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^ So, Denville, your contention is that while Diana was dating Charles she knew that Camilla and Charles were lovers and probably continuing their affair while she (Diana) was seeing Charles?

In fact, that she was quite OK with the possibility that the affair would continue through her engagement and after her wedding, because she knew the couple were deeply in love and that's what married people in aristo circles did ? That would make Diana an extraordinarily cynical and worldly young woman, something she almost certainly was not. It would make her motive for marrying Charles one of worldly ambition and social climbing only. Don't believe that either.

Her whole actions and beliefs during her engagement and the early part of her marriage scream that she knew that Charles and Camilla HAD been lovers but that she hadn't known how deep the relationship was, how closely the pair were entangled. Nor did she ever envisage IMO a situation in which she knew her bridegroom was in love with another woman as he stood at the altar and made his vows to her. I certainly believe THAT was the case, and in fact Charles was lying at the altar both to himself and his bride.
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  #2140  
Old 03-21-2017, 05:30 PM
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There are certain things in a marriage that no matter how much you try, you're never going to get your other half remotely interested in. Even in my "golden" years, I have yet to have a spouse get me interested in American football and after 20 years, if my hubby hasn't gotten the bookworm bug yet, it ain't going to happen. We're totally opposite in a lot of ways such as he's TV and I'm on the computer. He likes junk food and I love my salads. Those things are easy to adapt to with each other. On most things though, we're a comfortable pair of old shoes that just "fit" each other. It ain't been all rainbows and unicorns but it works very well for us.

Arguing the point about Camilla or James Hewitt or Hasnat Khan or anyone else outside the marriage isn't really pertinent to their marriage in my book. If the marriage had been a sound and secure one, none of the people outside of the marriage would ever have had any impact on it at all. There has to be a hole in the bucket for the rainwater to leak out.
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