Caroline's relationship with foreign royals

[Florestane]

She does not attend many Hanover occasions since she and Ernst separated although I know she is still close to her stepsons who are now in charge of the majority of the Hanover estates.

[Kitty1224]

Is her HRH recognized as a real title?

[Florestane]

Originally Posted by Kitty1224

Is her HRH recognized as a real title?

It's a courtesy - recognised by other royal and aristocratic families. But no it isn't "real" in the sense that it has no legal standing in Germany where officially there is no royalty.

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by Kitty1224

Is her HRH recognized as a real title?

The title is not recognized in the Federal Republic of Germany, but I heard rumors that Ernst August has a British passport where the style of HRH is used (in the same way as it is used in the UK passports of British princes). I don't know if that is true though (hopefully some other member does).


Ernst August is allowed, however, to use his German titles as part of his legal name in Germany (but not the HRH). The German Wikipedia says that his legal name in Germany is:


Ernst August Albert Paul Otto Rupprecht Oskar Berthold Friedrich-Ferdinand Christian-Ludwig Prinz von Hannover Herzog zu Braunschweig und Lüneburg Königlicher Prinz von Großbritannien und Irland.

[Heavs]

Wikipedia seems to have removed all mention that he is was allegedly legally allowed to use the HRH Prince Ernst August Guelph in the UK that it used to. Although it is still there in his father's entry. Again with no source.

This interview with his son says that Prinz von Großbritannien und Irland is part of his name on his German passport due to it's incorporation in 1914 but that he was simply known as Ernst Hannover in the UK with zero "he's actually secretly a legal British Prince" or Ernst August Guelph.

https://www.haz.de/Hannover/Aus-der-...-HAZ-Interview

HM also didn't use any name that might imply "Prince of GB and Ireland" in her formal approval of either of EA's marriages.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/...8638/page/7956

So I think that it's probably just a courtesy title, even in the UK. It doesn't really matter though since just about everyone/thing accepts the notion of courtesy titles socially.

In Caroline's case she also has her own title from birth that even though it's HSH not HRH is indisputably legal and real.

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by Heavs

Wikipedia seems to have removed all mention that he is was allegedly legally allowed to use the HRH Prince Ernst August Guelph in the UK that it used to. Although it is still there in his father's entry. Again with no source.

This interview with his son says that Prinz von Großbritannien und Irland is part of his name on his German passport due to it's incorporation in 1914 but that he was simply known as Ernst Hannover in the UK with zero "he's actually secretly a legal British Prince" or Ernst August Guelph.

https://www.haz.de/Hannover/Aus-der-...-HAZ-Interview

HM also didn't use any name that might imply "Prince of GB and Ireland" in her formal approval of either of EA's marriages.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/...8638/page/7956

So I think that it's probably just a courtesy title, even in the UK. It doesn't really matter though since just about everyone/thing accepts the notion of courtesy titles socially.

In any case, I suppose the use of the title of "Prince of Great Britain and Ireland" by the Hanoverians was suspended in the UK by the Titles Deprivation Act 1917, wasn't it ?


Nevertheless, The Queen does refer to Ernst August in the Order in Council you linked as "His Royal Highness" , which is why it is suggested that his HRH is recognized by the British court. If the latter is true, Caroline's HRH should be also recognized as his wife.

[Kitty1224]

Originally Posted by Heavs

Wikipedia seems to have removed all mention that he is was allegedly legally allowed to use the HRH Prince Ernst August Guelph in the UK that it used to. Although it is still there in his father's entry. Again with no source.

This interview with his son says that Prinz von Großbritannien und Irland is part of his name on his German passport due to it's incorporation in 1914 but that he was simply known as Ernst Hannover in the UK with zero "he's actually secretly a legal British Prince" or Ernst August Guelph.

https://www.haz.de/Hannover/Aus-der-...-HAZ-Interview

HM also didn't use any name that might imply "Prince of GB and Ireland" in her formal approval of either of EA's marriages.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/...8638/page/7956

So I think that it's probably just a courtesy title, even in the UK. It doesn't really matter though since just about everyone/thing accepts the notion of courtesy titles socially.

In Caroline's case she also has her own title from birth that even though it's HSH not HRH is indisputably legal and real.

So her HSH has more meaning than her HRH in her case then. Even her daughter Alexandra?

[An Ard Ri]

Originally Posted by Kitty1224

So her HSH has more meaning than her HRH in her case then. Even her daughter Alexandra?

As per the Monegasque Princely court/site she's style HRH The Princess of Hanover

https://www.palais.mc/en/princely-fa...raphy-1-8.html

Caroline was styled HSH prior to her marriage to HRH Prince Ernst of Hanover and HRH The Princess of Hanover after her marriage.

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by Kitty1224

So her HSH has more meaning than her HRH in her case then. Even her daughter Alexandra?

HRH is a higher rank than HSH, so when an HSH is upgraded to HRH, he/she should use the latter style instead (e.g. HSH Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha became an HRH after marrying Queen Victoria and, much later, was given a special title of Prince Consort).


The problem here is that HSH Princess Caroline of Monaco is a legal title that Caroline held as a member of the Princely Family of the sovereign Principality of Monaco, whereas her title of HRH The Princess of Hanover no longer exists / has been abolished in the Federal Republic of Germany, even if the Monegasgue court accepts and uses it.



A similar problem applies to the Hereditary Princess of Liechtenstein, who would be an HSH by marriage in Liechtenstein properly, but is treated as an HRH by virtue of the Principality recognizing her family's Bavarian titles, even though they have also been abolished in Germany.

[Kitty1224]

Originally Posted by Mbruno

HRH is a higher rank than HSH, so when an HSH is upgraded to HRH, he/she should use the latter style instead (e.g. HSH Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha became an HRH after marrying Queen Victoria and, much later, was given a special title of Prince Consort).


The problem here is that HSH Princess Caroline of Monaco is a legal title that Caroline held as a member of the Princely Family of the sovereign Principality of Monaco, whereas her title of HRH The Princess of Hanover no longer exists / has been abolished in the Federal Republic of Germany, even if the Monegasgue court accepts and uses it.



A similar problem applies to the Hereditary Princess of Liechtenstein, who would be an HSH by marriage in Liechtenstein properly, but is treated as an HRH by virtue of the Principality recognizing her family's Bavarian titles, even though they have also been abolished in Germany.

Interesting! So say if she visited the UK would they style her as HRH The Princess of Hanover?

[Florestane]

Originally Posted by Kitty1224

Interesting! So say if she visited the UK would they style her as HRH The Princess of Hanover?

Yes - and that is also how she is referred to by the British charity of which she is patron.

[TLLK]

Originally Posted by Kitty1224

Interesting! So say if she visited the UK would they style her as HRH The Princess of Hanover?

It's possible because even the non-reigning monarchs who have attended royal events in the UK ie QEII's Jubilee luncheon or the Cambridges' wedding would have been referred to by their styles and titles even though their monarchies no longer exist.



A better example is from the wedding of HGD Guillaume and Stephanie Lannoy in 2012. Caroline was a guest and she's referred to as the Princess of Hanover even though at that point she and her husband were estranged. She was Monaco's official representative that day.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weddin...royal_families

• The Princess of Hanover, estranged wife of the groom's third cousin, twice removed (representing the Prince of Monaco)[3]

[/QUOTE]

[Heavs]

HM and BP (as well as every other Court) uses legally abolished titles when necessary and in the case of King Constantine and King Mihai gave them the order of precedence due to them via their coronation dates in a gathering of Royal Heads of State.

In the case of the Hannovers the big question has always been the rumour that Ernst August's father was legally made a British Prince when he sued for British nationality under the Sophia Naturalisation Act in 1955 rather than simply using his courtesy titles. Which there doesn't seem to be any definitive source for.

[Kitty1224]

Originally Posted by TLLK

It's possible because even the non-reigning monarchs who have attended royal events in the UK ie QEII's Jubilee luncheon or the Cambridges' wedding would have been referred to by their styles and titles even though their monarchies no longer exist.



A better example is from the wedding of HGD Guillaume and Stephanie Lannoy in 2012. Caroline was a guest and she's referred to as the Princess of Hanover even though at that point she and her husband were estranged. She was Monaco's official representative that day.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weddin...royal_families

[/QUOTE]

Makes sense. Seems like many today use HSH Princess Caroline of Monaco. Is Albert the same rank as The Queen since he is a ruler or no since he is only a HSH?

[An Ard Ri]

Prince Albert is a Monarch/ the Head of State of Monaco ,the Sovereign Prince.

[Mbruno]

Makes sense. Seems like many today use HSH Princess Caroline of Monaco. Is Albert the same rank as The Queen since he is a ruler or no since he is only a HSH?

As a Head of State, he has the same rank as QEII. Likewise, GD Henri of Luxembourg and QEII also have the same rank.


However, Prince Albert is an HSH (as Head of State of a Principality), GD Henri is an HRH (as Head of State of a Grand Duchy) and Queen Elizabeth is an HM (as Head of State of a Kingdom).


In the past, in federal monarchies like the Second German Empire, there was a hierarchy between the Emperor/Kaiser (HI&RM), the Kings of Bavaria, Saxony, etc. (HM), the Grand Dukes and Sovereign Dukes (HRH or HH), and the Sovereign Princes (HSH).

[Kitty1224]

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri

Prince Albert is a Monarch/ the Head of State of Monaco ,the Sovereign Prince.

Thanks! I assumed because he is a HSH not HM that he’s not of the same rank.

[Kitty1224]

Originally Posted by Florestane

Yes - and that is also how she is referred to by the British charity of which she is patron.

Oh I meant by the British royals.

[An Ard Ri]

Originally Posted by Kitty1224

Oh I meant by the British royals.

The British RF would refer to Caroline as HRH The Princess of Hanover as per the Princely Court of Monaco as would all other royal houses.

[Kitty1224]

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri

The British RF would refer to Caroline as HRH The Princess of Hanover as per the Princely Court of Monaco as would all other royal houses.

Okay got it. So she’s basically the same rank as them now. Is she friends with all of them? Seems like Monaco is separated compared to Liechtenstein who is friends with all the European royal houses.