Andrea Casiraghi and Tatiana Santo Domingo expecting first child for 2013

[trepstrep]

Difference of opinion I guess. Personally if it was within my power I would prefer my children not be born bastards even if they would later be legitimated with marriage.

It's not a question of opinion but social uses and law. In western europe the concept of "bastard" does not exist. There is no diffference at all between a child born from married or unmarried parents. Absolutely none.

Why not marry now and have your child be born legitimate and in line to the throne, instead of waiting until after it is born to marry?

Because a civil marriage will not put the child in the succesion line to the throne. To inherit the Prince title the child has to be legitimate by the catholic church, so no matter whether they have a civil wedding or not, by canonical law the child won't be legitimate until the parents don't have a religious wedding.
The catholic church does not recognize civil weddings.

Why have the kid tagged with the line, "born x months before its parents later marriage" every time it is written about.

Because that tag does not exist in France (and monaco is culturally a part of france even if theoretically they are an independent land). Not even socially.
Nobody is going to thing about it twice and nobody is going to care about it.

Actually nowadays in France it is more normal to be born from unmarried than from married parents. Something like 55% of the newborns have unmarried parents, and each passing years the numbres are growing.


So the question is, why bother to organize a civil ceremony when it has no value for the child's sake?

Loads of people use the word 'bastard' nowadays, either in context of an illegitimate child of just the general use of the word in a derogatory manner.

Just for the record, a bastard and an illegitimate child are two different things.

An illegitimate child is a child born out of wedlock.

A bastard is a child a married person has with someone who is not is/her husband/wife.

So, even using the more conservative words and standars you want to use, this child could NEVER be a bastard since neither Tatiana nor Andrea are married to someone else.

Andrea, Charlotte and Pierre, were considered bastards by the church, though, because until Caroline got her annulement, by canonical law, they had been concieved with Stefano, while she was married to another man.

 

[Stefan]

Because a civil marriage will not put the child in the succesion line to the throne. To inherit the Prince title the child has to be legitimate by the catholic church, so no matter whether they have a civil wedding or not, by canonical law the child won't be legitimate until the parents don't have a religious wedding.
The catholic church does not recognize civil weddings.

But Stephanie's 2 elder children Louis and Pauline are in line of succession despite the fact that she married Daniel Ducruet only in an civil Ceremony and never in a relgious one.

 

[trepstrep]

But Stephanie's 2 elder children Louis and Pauline are in line of succession despite the fact that she married Daniel Ducruet only in an civil Ceremony and never in a relgious one.

Are they? Well, then I am obviously wrong.
I thought that was the main problem with Charlotte, Andrea and Pierre, when they were still considered bastards by the church. That they couldn't inherit...

 

[Artemisia]

Are they? Well, then I am obviously wrong.
I thought that was the main problem with Charlotte, Andrea and Pierre, when they were still considered bastards by the church. That they couldn't inherit...

All four children of Princess Caroline, as well as the two eldest children of Princess Stephanie have full succession rights and can, in theory, inherit the Throne.

Even if Andrea, Pierre and Charlotte had been considered illegitimate in the eyes of the Church (because Caroline's first marriage was annulled after they were born), following the annulment nothing prevented them from being considered legitimate even in the eyes of the Church. As for Louis and Pauline, the moment Stephanie married Daniel Ducruet, they were legitimised. Camille is not included in the Line of Succession because Stephanie never married her father.

Of course, rules are different in every country. For instance, in Spain or Britain children would also be legitimised following their parents' marriage but would hold no succession rights (to the Throne or peerages).

 

[priyanka]

I think that they care little now to marry and the rights of succession to the throne. According to sources very close to the family, It seems that the pregnancy was not planned, but was well-liked. Andrea was glad of the good news .. here 'cause there was the release of PC .. a form of commitment and respect. Hence to say if there will be the wedding you will see 'depend ..' as will evolve from 'their relationship. Foreign newspapers describe him as a relationship in crisis for years that seems to have been revitalized with the good news. Sorry for my english, I'm Italian.

 

[LadyMacAlpine]

Are they? Well, then I am obviously wrong.
I thought that was the main problem with Charlotte, Andrea and Pierre, when they were still considered bastards by the church. That they couldn't inherit...

First, you will get a lot of things thrown at you for using the word bastard to refer to a child born out of wedlock for several reasons. Here in America it is used to be nasty, offensive and to hurt the person you are speaking to or of.

The problem with Caroline’s children was when they were born she was still married to Philippe Junot in the eyes of the church because the marriage hadn’t been annulled. All Stephanie had to do was marry the father of her children to make them legitimate. It's the reason her youngest is not eligible.

 

[Tosca]

In Italy we use the expression 'natural child' to indicate a kid born out of the wedlock - no matter if one of the parents or both are married to other persons, or single -.

I do not think that they will name the kid Stefano (not Stephano, as somebody often writes, since the writing 'ph' doesn't exist in Italian), given that it is not a traditional name in the Grimaldi family, and this is a potential heir. Maybe they will use Stefano as a middle name. Andrea will also change his name into Albert III, might he ascend to the throne one day.
As they are 'hippies', well, they could choose Florestan as a boy's name, since this was the name of one of the Monaco princes, or Florestine if it's a girl. Both names come from Latin and mean 'flower'.

ETA: BTW under the new Italian law all children are considered legitimate, although born out of the wedlock, or the parents got married no matter in a religious or civil wedding instead. Unlike France, Italy has a concordat with the Vatican, hence all catholic marriages are automatically acknowledged by the State law.

 

[trepstrep]

Even if Andrea, Pierre and Charlotte had been considered illegitimate in the eyes of the Church (because Caroline's first marriage was annulled after they were born), following the annulment nothing prevented them from being considered legitimate even in the eyes of the Church.

Thanks, Artemisia. I knew about the casiraghis problems with the church.
My mistake was that I thought that to be in the Monaco succession line, children had to be legitimated by a religious wedding. That's why I was surprised that Stéphanie's kids were in the succesion line, aswell, as Stefan told me, because I thought that a civil wedding was not enough.

Of course, rules are different in every country. For instance, in Spain or Britain children would also be legitimised following their parents' marriage but would hold no succession rights (to the Throne or peerages).

I have no idea about Britain, so I asume you are right. But it is not that way in Spain, that's for sure.
A children born out of wedlock and legitimized but their parents marriage, authomatically gets the same rights in a line of succesion as if she had been born after the mariage. Peerage doesn't exist in spain, so they aren't any rules about it.

First, you will get a lot of things thrown at you for using the word bastard to refer to a child born out of wedlock for several reasons. Here in America it is used to be nasty, offensive and to hurt the person you are speaking to or of.

Hi, LadyMacAlpine, I know "bastard" is an insult often used in the anglosaxon world!

What I was trying to explain is that even if we were to use ancient terminology of past centuries to talk about children born out of wedlock Tatiana and Andrea's baby could never be called a bastard, not even by ancient law, since a bastard was only the product of adultery.

If we still were in ancient times, Andrea's child would had been called "illegitimate" or "natural born" but never a bastard.

On the other hand, using "ancient terms", in past societies, the casiraghis would had been considered bastards, since for the church Caroline concieved them while still married to Junot.

Of course by modern law there isn't such a thing as an illegitimate child.

 

[LadyMacAlpine]

If you look at the photos of Tatiana in July IMO she honestly doesn't look any different from the latest. Zimbio I still haven't found an official announcement from the Palace.

 

[cdm]

My suggestions:
Flora Caroline Vera Casiraghi for a girl
Marcel Stefano Julio Casiraghi for a boy

 

[azure]

I knew it!!!
Congrats to the couple!

 

[Al_bina]

Congratulations to the couple!

 

[iceflower]

Please note that a couple of off-topic posts have been removed!

___________________________________________________________

If you look at the photos of Tatiana in July IMO she honestly doesn't look any different from the latest. Zimbio I still haven't found an official announcement from the Palace.

French Paris Match reports that they've contacted the Palace and that a Palace official had told them that for Princess Caroline these were "wonderful news that she is happy to confirm" (source: EXCLU. Caroline confirme l'heureuse nouvelle. translation). I guess we won't get more than that.

 

[scooter]

If she already knew around the engagement time it was a bad decision to smoke
http://lotrafserver.lotraf.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/A_CASIRAGHI-17.jpg

Smoking is a bad decision, whether one is pregnant or not.

The baby will be a legitimate heir when the parents marry. That´s what the constitution states.

Assuming they marry. There's many a slip between the cup and the the lip. Many couples fight tremendously after the birth of a child (sleep deprivation, hormonal issues, house totally disrupted). Given Monaco's succession issues and the fact that Andrea is first in line for the throne, should Albert not produce a legitimate heir, I would think they would want this chiild born in wedlock. On another note, Andrea has really lost his looks...so thin and drawn. I hope that there are not other issues at play. He was SO goodlooking before.

 

[rominet09]

What amazes me is that nowadays we never see any pix of them together....

 

[hkittybaby]

do you think it will be a boy or a girl?

 

[PssKatie]

Congratulations to Andrea and Tatiana!

 

[Frelinghighness]

All four children of Princess Caroline, as well as the two eldest children of Princess Stephanie have full succession rights and can, in theory, inherit the Throne.

Even if Andrea, Pierre and Charlotte had been considered illegitimate in the eyes of the Church (because Caroline's first marriage was annulled after they were born), following the annulment nothing prevented them from being considered legitimate even in the eyes of the Church. As for Louis and Pauline, the moment Stephanie married Daniel Ducruet, they were legitimised. Camille is not included in the Line of Succession because Stephanie never married her father.

Of course, rules are different in every country. For instance, in Spain or Britain children would also be legitimised following their parents' marriage but would hold no succession rights (to the Throne or peerages).

So, I am pretty confused by now. To be in the line of succession for Monaco, the children need to have parents married only with a civil wedding? So then, if would be important if these two get married.
But, possibly these two have been on the rocks, as one poster suggested earlier. Many of these couples with years and years behind them, suggest to me a couple that is ambivilent.
Also, are you saying in Spain or Britain children who are born and whose parents then marry, have permanently missed the boat on peerages?

 

[Moonmaiden23]

I am not going to lie. I am disappointed that yet again a baby in this family is apparently going to be born outside of marriage. I'm just going to come out and say it...it makes the Principality's Ruling family look tacky like reality TV stars.

Just call it "Real Baby Mamas and Daddys of Monaco".

What do the Grimaldis have against building a stable marriage first and then bringing children into it?

I do pray to God that the precious little one is born healthy. Today I saw a photo of Tatiana lighting up a cig while pregnant and I wanted to shake her for being so stupid and selfish.

 

[NGalitzine]

So, I am pretty confused by now. To be in the line of succession for Monaco, the children need to have parents married only with a civil wedding? So then, if would be important if these two get married.
But, possibly these two have been on the rocks, as one poster suggested earlier. Many of these couples with years and years behind them, suggest to me a couple that is ambivilent.
Also, are you saying in Spain or Britain children who are born and whose parents then marry, have permanently missed the boat on peerages?

In Monaco the only legal marriage is the civil marriage. A religious marriage is optional but has no legal status. Carolines 2nd and 3rd marriages and both of Stephanies marriages were only civil marriages. The children of these marriages, even if born before the later civil marriage in Stephanies case, are considered legitimate and are in succession to the throne. Stephanies younger daughter has no succession rights as her mother never married her father.
Can't speak for Spain but in Britain children born before their parents marry may be legitimized by later wedding but cannot inherit titles or the throne. The elder children of the current Earl of Harewood is a case in point. His younger son, born after marriage is heir to the earldom not his elder brother born before his parents later marriage.
In the case of Andrea and Tatiana if they marry after the baby is born it will be legitimized and have a place in the line of succession. If they do not marry it will not.

 

[Artemisia]

So, I am pretty confused by now. To be in the line of succession for Monaco, the children need to have parents married only with a civil wedding? So then, if would be important if these two get married.

Also, are you saying in Spain or Britain children who are born and whose parents then marry, have permanently missed the boat on peerages?

In order for children to be in the Line of Succession, their parents need to be legally married at any point before or after their birth.
Religious (church) weddings have no legal status in Monaco, so as long as the parents are married in a civil marriage, that will be enough for a legitimisation.
Even if Andrea and Tatiana's child is born before they are legally wed, the moment they do marry the child will be legitimised and included in the succession line.

I cannot say about Spain but in Britain children born out of wedlock can never be in the Line of Succession to the Throne or inherit Peerages unless special Acts of Parliament are passed. If their parents subsequently marry, those children are accorded styles appropriate for younger children of Peers but can never inherit the actual titles.

To explain better, David Lascelles, 8th Earl of Harewood, has four children with his former wife, Margaret Rosalind Messenger - Emily, Benjamin, Alexander and Edward. Emily and Benjamin were born before their parents' marriage and were legitimised by their subsequent marriage, thus being accorded he styled of younger children of an Earl - Lady and Honourable respectively. However, because Benjamin was born out of wedlock, it is his younger brother, Alexander (born after David and Margaret married) who is heir apparent to their father's title and will one day become 9th Earl of Harewood; consequentially, Alexander is now styled by courtesy as Viscount Lascelles (the Earl's second-highest available title).

 

[QUEENECE29]

Congratulations to Andrea & Tatiana

 

[Ephram]

Congratulations to the happy couple. What a Christmas joy will be.

 

[crm2317]

I am not going to lie. I am disappointed that yet again a baby in this family is apparently going to be born outside of marriage. I'm just going to come out and say it...it makes the Principality's Ruling family look tacky like reality TV stars.

Just call it "Real Baby Mamas and Daddys of Monaco".

What do the Grimaldis have against building a stable marriage first and then bringing children into it?

I have to say I agree. I'm not a prude and I'm certainly not being judgemental. I'm just surprised that a family who portrays an image of being devoutly catholic seem happy to not wait for marriage before children. I mean a one off is one thing, but Albert has two illegitimate children by two women, Caroline was already pregnant at the time of her two marriages, Stephanie had three children by two men all out of wedlock and now Andrea and Tatiana.

I may be old fashioned in my views but I feel a ruling family, no matter where, has a duty to set a good example and role to the younger generations.

 

[rominet09]

I have to say I agree. I'm not a prude and I'm certainly not being judgemental. I'm just surprised that a family who portrays an image of being devoutly catholic seem happy to not wait for marriage before children. I mean a one off is one thing, but Albert has two illegitimate children by two women, Caroline was already pregnant at the time of her two marriages, Stephanie had three children by two men all out of wedlock and now Andrea and Tatiana.

I may be old fashioned in my views but I feel a ruling family, no matter where, has a duty to set a good example and role to the younger generations.

A bit much indeed !

 

[fandesacs2003]

I have to say I agree. I'm not a prude and I'm certainly not being judgemental. I'm just surprised that a family who portrays an image of being devoutly catholic seem happy to not wait for marriage before children. I mean a one off is one thing, but Albert has two illegitimate children by two women, Caroline was already pregnant at the time of her two marriages, Stephanie had three children by two men all out of wedlock and now Andrea and Tatiana.

I may be old fashioned in my views but I feel a ruling family, no matter where, has a duty to set a good example and role to the younger generations.

I think, Pcs Charlotte, mother of Prince Rainier was also born out of wedlock, so it is an historical habit to this family.
And I'm sorry, but where is the problem? Just because a child's birth stops the hypocrisy? Because it is the confirmation what a couple has sexual relations?? But who could believe that Andrea and Tatiana, dating for now 8 years, do not have sexual relations? It would be abnormal and stupid. They are not 14 years old!!!
It is not questin of religion. The world is full of catholics who have sexual relations out of marriage, are they all to blame for??

Le nouveau bonheur de Tatiana Santo Domingo - Gala

I do not now if it is my own impression, but I thnk Tatiana is radiant. Motherhood suits her, she is lumineous.

 

[muriel]

I am not going to lie. I am disappointed that yet again a baby in this family is apparently going to be born outside of marriage. I'm just going to come out and say it...it makes the Principality's Ruling family look tacky like reality TV stars.

Just call it "Real Baby Mamas and Daddys of Monaco".

What do the Grimaldis have against building a stable marriage first and then bringing children into it?

I do pray to God that the precious little one is born healthy. Today I saw a photo of Tatiana lighting up a cig while pregnant and I wanted to shake her for being so stupid and selfish.

Quite right. The current crop of Grimaldi's just dont seem to be able to have stable lasting marriages and children within the sanctity of marriage.

Whilst it is not in any way scandalous these days, it just seems odd that they just appear no different from trailer park trash!

 

[crm2317]

I think, Pcs Charlotte, mother of Prince Rainier was also born out of wedlock, so it is an historical habit to this family.
And I'm sorry, but where is the problem? Just because a child's birth stops the hypocrisy? Because it is the confirmation what a couple has sexual relations?? But who could believe that Andrea and Tatiana, dating for now 8 years, do not have sexual relations? It would be abnormal and stupid. They are not 14 years old!!!
It is not questin of religion. The world is full of catholics who have sexual relations out of marriage, are they all to blame for??

I'm aware they are likely to have had sex however as a family who put out an image of being 'devout' they aren't doing a good job. It's clear they attend mass for annual important services and that it's because it's expected of them. If they were devoted Catholics then they wouldn't be having sex before marriage.

I'm aware they aren't 14, but it was my understanding that Catholics, like Protestants, believe that children should be born within wedlock.

 

[kathia_sophia]

I think, Pcs Charlotte, mother of Prince Rainier was also born out of wedlock, so it is an historical habit to this family.
And I'm sorry, but where is the problem? Just because a child's birth stops the hypocrisy? Because it is the confirmation what a couple has sexual relations?? But who could believe that Andrea and Tatiana, dating for now 8 years, do not have sexual relations? It would be abnormal and stupid. They are not 14 years old!!!
It is not questin of religion. The world is full of catholics who have sexual relations out of marriage, are they all to blame for??

having a sexual relationship is up to the couple/partners, nowadays is not a big of a deal, who will know for 100% that they share a bed?, but when a child is conceived like they did, everybody will know thats out of wedlock. They're NOT common people, they are royalty who have to set a example to their people and even more as they try to show the people that they're devout catholics.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

It might not be a big deal for most people, but for the Ruling family of an historically conservative and Catholic country like Monaco it's umseemly and strange.

Grace and Rainier did not have perfect private lives, but they worked very hard during their reign to wipe away the shady reputation of Monaco and to give it a sheen of class, elegance and respectability.

It has taken their descendants a very short time to erase it all, imo.

Why make a great show of being faithful Catholics who attend Mass and receive the Sacraments when you probably don't place that much importance on it? Just give up the pretense, is all I am saying.