Titles and Styles of Harry, his Future Wife and Children

[Lumutqueen]

How do they determine what titles the daughters of second, third, etc. in line for the throne get? Why are Andrew's daughters titled "Princess", Anne's children not titled and Edward's children titled "Lady" and "Lord" and not "Prince" and Princess"?

Zara and Peter hold no title because their father didn't accept one and they are children of a female who cannot pass down her title.
Louise and James are Lady and Viscount Severn because that is the way Edward and Sophie decided it would be, this was to avoid the burdens of a title.
Beatrice and Eugenie are Princess' due to the letters patent issued in 1917 which assign a princely status and the style of Royal Highness to all male-line grandchildren of a monarch.

 

[Furienna]

There's also the "Princess Royal" title, held by the monarch's oldest daughter, which right now is Princess Anne.

 

[Artemisia]

There's also the "Princess Royal" title, held by the monarch's oldest daughter, which right now is Princess Anne.

Princess Royal is a style, not title. It's not like a real (peerage) title with the result that Princess Anne, like Princess Beatrice or Prince Harry, is a commoner.
It is indeed usually (but not automatically) given to the Monarch's oldest daughter.

 

[Furienna]

Yes, I'm sure you're right.

 

[Iluvbertie]

How do they determine what titles the daughters of second, third, etc. in line for the throne get? Why are Andrew's daughters titled "Princess", Anne's children not titled and Edward's children titled "Lady" and "Lord" and not "Prince" and Princess"?

The simple answer - The 1917 Letters Patent issued by George V which identified those who could be HRH Prince/Princess.

1. Children of the monarch - Charles, Anne, Andrew and Edward
2. Male line grandchildren of the monarch - William, Harry, Beatrice, Eugenie, Louise, James, Richard, Edward, Michael and Alexandra (it is in the category that both Elizabeth and Margaret were when they were born and so they were HRH Princess Elizabeth and HRH Princess Margaret of York as male line grandchildren of George V))
3. The eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales - so William's eldest son

Daughters do NOT automatically pass on any titles - even The Queen. When she was HRH The Princess Elizabeth and heiress presumptive to the throne she couldn't pass on any titles to her own children. As a result George VI had to issue new LPs to cover any children born to Elizabeth in October 1948. Had that not been done Charles would have been born Lord Charles Mountbatten and taken his father's second title as a courtesy title so he would have been known as The Earl of Merioneth. Anne would have been born Lady Anne Mountbatten.

Louise and James are the two whose situation highlights the changes that have been happening recently. They are being raised with the titles of the children of an Earl not the HRH Prince/Princess because that is the wish of their parents.

I suspect that in time the LPs will be changed to have only the children of the heir to the throne pass on the HRH Prince/Princess title.

 

[jacii11]

But what about the newcastle dukeom? I think that's the title prince harry will have.

 

[Iluvbertie]

The Duke of Newcastle title has never been given to a royal before and so is unlikely to be given to a royal now.

 

[TheDutchess]

The Duke of Newcastle title has never been given to a royal before and so is unlikely to be given to a royal now.

Do you think they would combine Clarence and St Andrews ?
Sorry I meant Connaught and St Andrews

 

[Artemisia]

The Duke of Connaught title may be revived, but it is unlikely to be combined with Duke of St Andrews one for two reasons:
- Firstly, there is already a St Andrews in the Royal Family - George Windsor, Earl of St Andrews (the son of the Duke of Kent).
- Secondly, double Dukedoms haven't been been granted for ages; the last one was, I believe, created during the reign of Queen Victoria.

 

[NGalitzine]

Connaught is part of Ireland so revival is unlikely.

 

[cepe]

What are the chances of creating a completely new one? As someone who likes the Saxon era, how about Duke of Mercia?

 

[Tsar bobo Iv]

maybe duke of sussex

 

[Artemisia]

What are the chances of creating a completely new one? As someone who likes the Saxon era, how about Duke of Mercia?

There were Kings and Earls of Mercia - but no Dukes. I guess in theory, an old Anglo-Saxon title can be revived; after all, the Earl of Wessex was a pre-Conquest Anglo-Saxon title that belonged to, among others, Harold Godwinson - the last Anglo-Saxon King of England. A new title for Harry is possible, but overall highly improbable; more than likely, Harry will be granted one of the Royal Dukedoms. Currently, only the following Royal Dukedoms are vacant:

- Clarence
- Sussex
- Windsor
- Albemarle
- Ross
- Kendal
- Hereford
- Connaught
- St Andrews
- Strathearn
- Avondale

More on that, in this post.

maybe duke of sussex

That's quite possible. Personally, I think Sussex (along with Ross and Hereford), is one of the likeliest Dukedoms for Prince Harry.

Of the available Dukedoms, the following are highly unlikely choices:
- Strathearn (since Prince William has already been created Earl of Strathearn)
- Windsor (no one needs reminder of the abdication crisis).
- Albemarle (because of all the issues with Jacobite creations).
- Kendal (because the last creation was for the King's mistress).
- Avondale (the last holder - Prince Albert Victor, was rumoured to be Jack the Ripper. Also, the title was never used separately).
- Clarence (again, unfortunate associations. Also, the title was never used separately and only with conjecture with another dukedom)
- Connaught (because it's in Ireland)
- St Andrews (because there already is a St Andrews - the Earl of St Andrews, the Duke of Kent's son)

 

[NGalitzine]

I think Hereford is pretty unlikely as well since it is already in use as the Premier Viscountcy in the Peerage of England.

 

[csw]

Thank you for the great list! Too bad York is taken. I'm thinking that Windsor may be restored. The name is so compelling and it could do with a polish to make it lustrous again. I think Harry is just the man to make it glorious.

 

[Charlotte_Aster]

Isn't there alredy an Earl of St Andrews?

 

[Artemisia]

Isn't there alredy an Earl of St Andrews?

There is indeed an Earl of St Andrews; it's one of the subsidiary titles of the Duke of Kent. His son, George, uses it as his courtesy style.

However, there is also a Dukedom of St Andrews, which is currently vacant. It was originally part of a double title (Duke of Clarence and St Andrews) and was created for Prince William, 1st Duke of Clarence and St Andrews (future William IV).

 

[Tsar bobo Iv]

i hope they bring back the duke annd duchess of windsor 2 it is really appealing

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

"Duke of Windsor" sounds really good, but then again it has a lot of negative history with King Edward VII and Wallis Simpson and then it was made the BRF's family name (or whatever you call it), so I fear it's unlikely that he'll be given that title.

I like Duke of Clarence, it would sound really good with a double title, but Clarence sounds good on it's own too.

 

[TheDutchess]

I like Clarence too but I also like Connaught and St Andrews

 

[Esmerelda]

I like Clarence too but I also like Connaught and St Andrews

There's already an Earl of St Andrews: George Windsor, the oldest son of the Duke of Kent. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Windsor,_Earl_of_St_Andrews

Connaught is now in the Republic of Ireland so I doubt that any member of the Royal family will be given the title.

 

[Artemisia]

Actually, it is the Duke of Kent who is also Earl of St Andrews; his oldest son merely used the title as his style by courtesy.

Apart from the title "Earl of St Andrews", there is also a separate title "Duke of St Andrews", which is currently vacant and can be bestowed upon anyone at any time. Duke of St Andrews was originally part of a double title (Duke of Clarence and St Andrews) and was created for George III's third son (future William IV).

 

[Warren]

...So, for example, if Harry is created Duke of X, Baron of Y and Viscount Z, then:
- Harry will be known as Prince Henry, Duke of X
- His eldest son (and Heir Apparent) will be known as Baron of Y
- The eldest son of the eldest son will be known as Viscount Z

The subsidiary titles used in the above example are in the wrong order as Viscounts precede Barons in the peerage [Duke-Marquess-Earl-Viscount-Baron].

Based on the assumption that Harry becomes a Royal Duke and remains true to the Letters Patent of 1917, his eldest son will likely be born as a courtesy-titled Earl but later become a Prince of the United Kingdom with the style of Royal Highness.

So under the present convention and assuming Harry's eldest son is born during the reign of Elizabeth II it's more likely to be:
- Harry is created Duke of X, Earl of Y and Baron Z and is known by his ducal title
- His eldest son will be Earl of Y (courtesy title)
Duke Harry is unlikely to have a grandson during the current reign but if this occurred, the Earl of Y's eldest son would bear the courtesy title of Baron Z.

The situation would change on Charles's accesstion to the throne when the Earl of Y becomes a male-line grandson of the Sovereign and thus entitled under Letters Patent to be a Prince of the United Kingdom with the style of Royal Highness. He would be known as Prince ... of X.
- The Prince's eldest son (Harry's grandson) would likely be passed the courtesy title of Earl of Y
- The Earl's eldest son would in turn be known as Baron Z

Leaving the Wessex/future Edinburgh creation to one side, the current title conventions used within the Royal Family are straightforward. Best examples are for the two sons of George V who had male issue, namely Henry Duke of Gloucester and George Duke of Kent:

- The Duke of Gloucester (Prince Richard of Gloucester from his birth in 1944 until his father's death in June 1974)
- The Duke's son: Earl of Ulster (born October 1974)
- The Earl 's son: Baron Culloden (born 2007)

- The Duke of Kent (Prince Edward of Kent from his birth in 1935 until his father's death in 1942)
- The Duke's eldest son: Earl of St Andrews (born 1962)
- The Earl's son: Baron Downpatrick (born 1988)

There is clarity in the Gloucester and Kent titular flow. The immediate Royal Family's present situation muddies the waters due to the Duke of York having no sons, Prince Edward's stop-gap Earldom causing confusion, and William's Dukedom being freshly-minted but destined to be superceded.

 

[Artemisia]

Right you are Warren, Viscount does indeed outrank Baron.
I confused the ranking of the two in the second part of that post.

 

[kbk]

I really like Clarence and I think this or Connaught would be the territorial designation of Harry's possible dukedom. Anyway, I'm not sure that Harry will ever get a dukedom as Charles would be a minimalistic and very modest monarch, I believe.

 

[NGalitzine]

Given that Connaught is not part of the United Kingdom I doubt it will ever be revived as a British peerage. I can see Clarence or Sussex or possibly Ross being used as a future royal dukedom.

 

[cepe]

I really like Clarence and I think this or Connaught would be the territorial designation of Harry's possible dukedom. Anyway, I'm not sure that Harry will ever get a dukedom as Charles would be a minimalistic and very modest monarch, I believe.

I agrees that Charles wants a smaller BRF but I think that the core members will have titles and that Harry would be offered a royal dukedom.

It's another whole can of ball games as to whether he would accept it.

 

[MichelleQ2]

I think it will be offered and accepted when he marries - otherwise his wife would be known as the Princess Harry and not have a title in her own right.

 

[EllieCat]

I think it will be offered and accepted when he marries - otherwise his wife would be known as the Princess Harry and not have a title in her own right.

Only by those 'in the know' about Royal titles; everyone else will call her Princess Chelsey (or whatever!)

 

[HRHHermione]

Only by those 'in the know' about Royal titles; everyone else will call her Princess Chelsey (or whatever!)

People haven't really been doing that with Kate.