Titles and Styles of Harry, his Future Wife and Children

[Kitty1224]

Clarence has an pretty awful history.. the Duke who drowned in a butt of Malmsey, William IV who was a bit of an idiot, Albert Victor also an embarrassing royal. why is it better than Sussex>?

When you think about it, a lot of titles have a bad history. Its about making your own history.

 

[Countessmeout]

If they continue royal duchies they need to revamp. Need to make it modern, by that for women like charlotte and inheritable by women. Smart thing may be to make them life peerages like in Sweden and Spain. Harry gets his title, but it isn't inherited by a child. Harrys kids would be prince and Princess as Charles would be king, but no duchy to inherit from dad.

 

[Denville]

I thnk Harr will get a dukedom on marriage because Charles and the queen are traditionally minded..

 

[Lumutqueen]

If they were that traditionally minded Edward would have got a dukedom. However they listened to what he wanted and he received an Earldom. So I can imagine the same scenario for Henry, if he doesn't want something he won't be given it.

 

[Jacknch]

Please note that some recent posts have been edited or deleted. We're supposed to be having a mature discussion about possible titles and styles for Prince Harry, not discussing the sexuality of members of the Royal Family.

 

[Mbruno]

If they continue royal duchies they need to revamp. Need to make it modern, by that for women like charlotte and inheritable by women. Smart thing may be to make them life peerages like in Sweden and Spain. Harry gets his title, but it isn't inherited by a child. Harrys kids would be prince and Princess as Charles would be king, but no duchy to inherit from dad.

I suppose one of the main obstacles is that, under the Life Peerages Act, life peerages in the UK can only be bestowed at the rank of baron. I don't think there is a legal framework in place to create life earls or life dukes.

 

[vkrish]

Ohh.. I learnt a new thing today.. I always wanted son's of monarchs to be made Dukes without the tag "heirs body male".. So even royal peerages can't be made above Baronets (like Dukes/Earls)?.. And of course they won't be entering House of Lords and voting/debating..

 

[Spheno]

I suppose one of the main obstacles is that, under the Life Peerages Act, life peerages in the UK can only be bestowed at the rank of baron. I don't think there is a legal framework in place to create life earls or life dukes.

Many titles were created 'for life' before 'life peerage' idea.

 

[JR76]

If they continue royal duchies they need to revamp. Need to make it modern, by that for women like charlotte and inheritable by women. Smart thing may be to make them life peerages like in Sweden and Spain. Harry gets his title, but it isn't inherited by a child. Harrys kids would be prince and Princess as Charles would be king, but no duchy to inherit from dad.

The Swedish royal dukedoms arent peerages but only courtesy titles. Sweden does not have peerages only noble titles that are of no legal standing anymore.

 

[JSH]

If they were that traditionally minded Edward would have got a dukedom. However they listened to what he wanted and he received an Earldom. So I can imagine the same scenario for Henry, if he doesn't want something he won't be given it.

Not true. Edward was given an Earldom because he will, in time, be given his father's title of Duke of Edinburgh. There is no reason for him to have 2 dukedoms, so, for now, he is an Earl only. The Queen (and Phillip) are very traditionally minded in wanting one of their sons to get their father's title even if it is not directly inherited from him (as it will almost certainly be recreated for Edward as opposed to inherited by him).

 

[Curryong]

They can indeed listen to Harry if he doesn't want a dukedom for himself )and we don't know whether that's true or not.) They can then remind him that his wife will be Princess Harry for all time if he doesn't take it. That should cure him!

 

[Iluvbertie]

Not true. Edward was given an Earldom because he will, in time, be given his father's title of Duke of Edinburgh. There is no reason for him to have 2 dukedoms, so, for now, he is an Earl only. The Queen (and Phillip) are very traditionally minded in wanting one of their sons to get their father's title even if it is not directly inherited from him (as it will almost certainly be recreated for Edward as opposed to inherited by him).

They do know that there is a slim possibility that it won't be available for Edward due to inheritance.

e.g. if Charles, William and George all predecease Philip or The Queen (shouldn't happen but ...) then Harry inherits all of Philip's titles while Charlotte becomes Queen and Edward remains an Earl.

The Queen listened to Edward.

There is no guarantee that Charles will recreated the Edinburgh title for Edward. He may decide he doesn't want his younger brother to have their father's title. If it is down to William he may make that decision as well.

It isn't a given but an expectation that if and when the title becomes available again it will go to Edward but it isn't a guarantee as the law of the land and the LPs of the title have to be followed along with the new monarch going along with an agreement made in 1999.

 

[MaiaMia_53]

I was wondering about the title, Duke of Buckingham. Apparently, it hasn't been used since 1687:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dukedoms_in_the_peerages_of_Britain_and_Ireland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Buckingham

Why couldn't that title be renewed for Harry? Buckingham Palace takes its name from John Sheffield, first Duke of Buckingham and Normandy (1648-1721). The palace was first a house built for Sheffield. In 1762, King George III purchased the Sheffield house for his wife, Queen Charlotte of Mecklenberg-Strelitz (she is said to have Portugese-related African heritage). After Queen Charlotte was given the house by King George III, it became known as The Queen's House. King George IV ordered the house to be converted into a palace during the 1820s.

But I guess since Buckingham is the well known name of the palace, it would never be considered for use as a dukedom again.

Some additional extinct dukedoms include Surrey, Warwick, Exeter, Bedford, Somerset (all fine English names). Although it has been mentioned in the Royal Titles thread that Warwick currently exists as an earldom, so it wouldn't be re-created as a dukedom for that reason.

I agree that the Duke of Clarence title has way too many negative past associations, and should not be re-created for Harry. It has been reported that Harry prefers the Sussex title. I'm not sure of the source for that report. Some media outlets have also recently claimed that Harry does not want a dukedom. That has not been confirmed either.

 

[Curryong]

Like George, Duke of Buckingham, the well known lover of King James I, who was ennobled and flew up the ranks of the peerage faster than a rat up a drainpipe?

 

[MaiaMia_53]

^^ Yes, Curryong, you made reference in the Royal Titles thread to George Villiers (who was given the re-created title Duke of Buckingham in 1623), but once again, who but royal historians and peerage experts would know about very long ago title associations? But I suppose the monarch does have any and every possible title bestowal thoroughly vetted well in advance.

 

[wbenson]

Many titles were created 'for life' before 'life peerage' idea.

Yes, the purpose of the Life Peerages Act was to enable life peers to sit in Parliament, which the House of Lords had ruled against in the Wensleydale Peerage Case. A life peerage outside of the Life Peerages Act could presumably still be created, but it wouldn't entitle the holder to sit in the Lords, which wouldn't be an issue for a royal peerage as the holder would be expected not to take an active role there anyways.

 

[Dee Anna]

Coming late to the debate, so apologies if covering old ground.

What currently are the popular choices for Harry, as in top 5?

Before the wedding day announcement, what were the top 5 popular choices for William (other than the "fact" he didn't want a Dukedom title bestowed)?

 

[Osipi]

Coming late to the debate, so apologies if covering old ground.

What currently are the popular choices for Harry, as in top 5?

Before the wedding day announcement, what were the top 5 popular choices for William (other than the "fact" he didn't want a Dukedom title bestowed)?

I seriously believe that one title for Harry would rank above all when it came to his own personal choice. It would be "Daddy".

From all I've seen and read though over the years, I am leaning towards Harry being created The Duke of Sussex on his wedding day.

 

[Curryong]

Coming late to the debate, so apologies if covering old ground.

What currently are the popular choices for Harry, as in top 5?

Before the wedding day announcement, what were the top 5 popular choices for William (other than the "fact" he didn't want a Dukedom title bestowed)?

I think it was the same old titles bobbing up on the run up to William's wedding day as are recurring with Harry, as well as a few imaginative suggestions such as are on this thread. The press seemed to believe Cambridge was going to be in the mix, and Sussex, although there was even then some suggestion that that title would be reserved for Harry. I seem to remember some trawling among the sons of King George III by so-called experts in the media at the time, but they kept on returning to those two, with Clarence an outside chance.

What about Duke of Kendal? It hasn't got a very distinguished history, but it has some Royal provenance.

 

[Denville]

Like George, Duke of Buckingham, the well known lover of King James I, who was ennobled and flew up the ranks of the peerage faster than a rat up a drainpipe?

but is Buckingham a royal title? (nad as the title of an ex lover of a rather louche King I agree that its not very suitable.

 

[Curryong]

^ I think MaiaMia in her post a little way back was thinking of John Sheffield who became the first Duke of Buckingham of that creation, and the man for whom Buckingham House was built (which later became BP, of course). And therefore there was a Royal connection in that way.

 

[Spheno]

Duke of Dover also sounds nice

 

[Pranter]

Is there currently a Duke of Richmond or Cumberland? What about Albany?



LaRae

 

[Skippyboo]

There is a Duke of Richmond now (title starts from illegitimate son of Charles II). The Gordon-Lennox family are the title holders.

Cumberland and Albany are stuck in German title limbo. The ended up with Germans through the Hanover line and then were frozen during the Great War. They are not extinct because there are still potential heirs who could try to reclaim the title.

 

[Pranter]

Ah gotcha. Hadn't thought about the limbo issue.


LaRae

 

[Mirabel]

Well, history or not, I still think they should go with Duke of Buckingham.

Clarence also has a negative history, and it would be confusing with Cornwall, Cambridge, and Clarence at the same time.

And Duke of Sussex sounds awkward, somehow.

 

[LauraS3514]

I was wondering about the title, Duke of Buckingham. Apparently, it hasn't been used since 1687:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dukedoms_in_the_peerages_of_Britain_and_Ireland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Buckingham

Why couldn't that title be renewed for Harry? Buckingham Palace takes its name from John Sheffield, first Duke of Buckingham and Normandy (1648-1721). The palace was first a house built for Sheffield. In 1762, King George III purchased the Sheffield house for his wife, Queen Charlotte of Mecklenberg-Strelitz (she is said to have Portugese-related African heritage). After Queen Charlotte was given the house by King George III, it became known as The Queen's House. King George IV ordered the house to be converted into a palace during the 1820s.

But I guess since Buckingham is the well known name of the palace, it would never be considered for use as a dukedom again.
.

There was an earlier "Harry Duke of Buckingham" during the Wars of the Roses - Henry Stafford, the 2nd Duke of that creation. He was a royal cousin (descended from Thomas of Woodstock, Duke of Gloucester and Earl of Buckingham, fifth son of Edward III with a Beaufort mother) and married to Catherine Woodville (sister of Edward IV's lady) as a child. He was apparently playing both sides against the middle by at first appearing to support Richard III, then Henry Tudor, all the while probably hoping to become King himself. During what has been named Buckingham's Rebellion he was abandoned by his Tudor allies, captured, and executed as a traitor in November 1483. Some believe that if Edward IV's sons were killed, it far more likely to have been by Buckingham's orders as he was left in charge of London with the title of Lord High Constable while Richard was on his coronation progress - and he was the one who started the rumors of them being dead by Richard's hand, who called Buckingham "the most untrue creature living." His son Edward, the 3rd Duke, was executed by Henry VIII for the treason of "listening to prophesies of the King's death" although the real reason was having Plantangenet blood.

So the title of Duke of Buckingham has lots and lots of baggage dating back over 500 years.

 

[Westfield Bakery]

Sussex, Cumberland, and Buckingham titles would be good

Those titles would be good for Harry if he wants it. Harry would want a Dukedom than an Earldom because he may want children. If he has a son, that male would be the future Duke of ______ when Harry dies. I still do believe that all grandchildren, children and siblings of the monarch should have HRHs.


His Royal Highness The Duke of Buckingham would be a good title. His son would be a prince of Buckingham.

 

[Westfield Bakery]

If Harry is given the Sussex title on his marriage, one of his subsidiary titles would be Earl of Inverness. However the Inverness Earldom is already taken by his uncle Andrew. Harry would also be Baron Arklow. Would Andrew give up his Earldom to his nephew?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Sussex

 

[EllieCat]

I still do believe that all grandchildren, children and siblings of the monarch should have HRHs.

I agree completely.