Titles and Styles of Harry, his Future Wife and Children

[BrazilianEmpire]

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie

I actually don't think you get the difference between 'Dame' and 'Lady'.

Dame = a title held in your own right - she was made a Dame for her own work and will hold that title forever more.

Lady - a style she takes because of who she is married to - a style she would lose on divorce.

That the wife of a KG of the Garter gives her a higher position in the Order of Precedence than a Dame in her own right is why Wikipedia (hardly a reliable source in many cases) refers to her as Lady as the later title but it also says that legally, on legal documents etc she is referred to as Dame Norma Major - because that it a title she holds in her own right, through her own efforts while Lady is merely the style of the wife of a knight.

I understand the difference between Dame and Lady.

But Norma Major holds these two titles. As Lady, even by courtesy, she has a higher precedence than the one she would have only as a Dame.

The point is that she holds two titles, and decided the be know as Dame, but she's still a Lady.

[NGalitzine]

Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire

The point is that she holds two titles, and decided the be know as Dame, but she's still a Lady.

Norma was always a lady, even before she became a Dame or a Lady

[AdmirerUS]

Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire

Wikipedia says this -

- Major's styles since her birth in chronological order are:
- Miss Norma Wagstaff (1942–45)
- Miss Norma Johnson (1945–70)
- Mrs. John Major (1970–99)
- Dame Norma Major, DBE (1999–present)
- Lady Major, DBE (2005–present)

Norma Major has been created a Dame Commander of the Order of the British Empire and she is named as Dame Norma Major in legal documents. As the wife of a Knight of the Garter, she may use also the courtesy title of "Lady" as a prefix to her surname, provided she uses her husband’s surname. Although this title places her higher in the Order of Precedence than her Damehood, she prefers to use the style Dame Norma Major as she acquired this distinction in her own right.

Norma Major - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wikipedia may say this - but they may not be right. Remember when when the Cambridges took action against the tabloid in France, Kate was named on those LEGAL documents with her Middleton name.

Also - which is more rude?

• to refer to someone by the name they ask you to use ("oh please call me Harry")
• to keep referring to someone by their style/title/given name, when they have asked you to not do that. (Prince Henry, would you like me to fetch your trousers?")

I'd rather have good manners than be right according to Wikipedia standards.

[AdmirerUS]

Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire

No, when a Prince gets a Dukedom, he ceases to use the "surname" from his father's title (the Duke of Cambridge is no longer "Prince William of Wales").

Similarly, when a Princess marry, she ceases to use the "surname", and starts to use her husband title or surname (like Princess Alexandra, the Honorable Lady Ogilvy).

William is still Wales in the military. It's another exception to the rules.

[BrazilianEmpire]

Originally Posted by AdmirerUS

Wikipedia may say this - but they may not be right. Remember when when the Cambridges took action against the tabloid in France, Kate was named on those LEGAL documents with her Middleton name.

Also - which is more rude?

• to refer to someone by the name they ask you to use ("oh please call me Harry")
• to keep referring to someone by their style/title/given name, when they have asked you to not do that. (Prince Henry, would you like me to fetch your trousers?")

I'd rather have good manners than be right according to Wikipedia standards.

I never said otherwise.

Prince Harry could ask you to call him "Harry", or even "Shirley" if he want. But that doesn't change the fact that he is HRH Prince Henry of Wales.

[Iluvbertie]

Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire

I understand the difference between Dame and Lady.

But Norma Major holds these two titles. As Lady, even by courtesy, she has a higher precedence than the one she would have only as a Dame.

The point is that she holds two titles, and decided the be know as Dame, but she's still a Lady.

Clearly you don't as you keep referring to them both as titles when one is a title and the other is a style.

A title is substantive and in her own right.

A style is a courtesy and one held by right of connection.

She is a Dame in her own right. That is her own title.

She is a Lady because she is married to a Knight of the Garter. That is a style she uses because he has the male title of 'Sir'.

Her precedence is based on the levels of knighthood - and Garter is higher than all other knighthoods but Dame is the same as Sir so the precedence comes based on the order of knighthood given.

[BrazilianEmpire]

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie

Clearly you don't as you keep referring to them both as titles when one is a title and the other is a style.

A title is substantive and in her own right.

A style is a courtesy and one held by right of connection.

She is a Dame in her own right. That is her own title.

She is a Lady because she is married to a Knight of the Garter. That is a style she uses because he has the male title of 'Sir'.

Her precedence is based on the levels of knighthood - and Garter is higher than all other knighthoods but Dame is the same as Sir so the precedence comes based on the order of knighthood given.

I never said she can't use her title of Dame.

I'm just saying that, at the same time she's Dame Nora Major, she's also Lady Major, doesn't matter what she prefers to be called.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by AdmirerUS

William is still Wales in the military. It's another exception to the rules.

It's not really a "rule'. More like accepted practice for those with titles or royal styles. It is extremely common for Peers to use their titles as surnames when necessary or if they so desire with their close friends.

William has always used "William Wales" since he was in school and continues to use it in the Armed Forces. Even though "William Cambridge" would be correct now that he is a Duke, it doesn't matter what name he uses. Technically, he has no surname as HRH at birth.

[Daimyo]

what title will Prince Harry be granted by the Queen when he marries?

HRH The Duke of Clarence?

HRH The Duke of Albany?

HRH The Duke of Cumberland?

HRH The Duke of Windsor?

or will he just continuing being HRH Prince Harry (and his wife will be HRH Princess Harry)?? (like Prince & Princess Michael) .........Princess Harry just sounds wrong....

[Lumutqueen]

Originally Posted by Daimyo

what title will Prince Harry be granted by the Queen when he marries?

HRH The Duke of Clarence?

HRH The Duke of Albany?

HRH The Duke of Cumberland?

HRH The Duke of Windsor?

Until he gets married we don't know. I doubt we'll see Windsor until William is King IMO.

[Daimyo]

yes of course, but any speculation?

gambling sites like Ladbrokes gave favorite odds on title of Prince William (Cambridge and Cumberland were favorite odds)

[Lumutqueen]

Originally Posted by Daimyo

yes of course, but any speculation?

gambling sites like Ladbrokes gave favorite odds on title of Prince William (Cambridge and Cumberland were favorite odds)

Speculation for William's title arose when he got engaged, Henry doesn't even have a long term girlfriend.

[Iluvbertie]

Originally Posted by Daimyo

what title will Prince Harry be granted by the Queen when he marries?

HRH The Duke of Clarence?

HRH The Duke of Albany?

HRH The Duke of Cumberland?

HRH The Duke of Windsor?

or will he just continuing being HRH Prince Harry (and his wife will be HRH Princess Harry)?? (like Prince & Princess Michael) .........Princess Harry just sounds wrong....

He can't have Albany or Cumberland as they aren't extinct titles. The holders were deprived of those titles in 1917 under the Titles Deprivation Act but there are claimants who have the right to petition to have the titles restored. Until there are no living male-line descendents of these titles they aren't available for regrant. The Act included the right to petition for the restoration of the titles.

Currently the person who could petition for Cumberland is Ernst Augustus V, Prince of Hanover and his son is the heir apparent. There are other male line sons as well.

Currenty the person who could petition for Albany is Hubertus Prinz von Sachsen Coburg-Gotha and he too has a son and heir to that title should they decide to petition for its restoration.

Windsor is a non-starter - it was a special one -off title given to an ex-King and is probably in the back drawer for such an occasion in the future e.g. if William abdicates then Duke of Windsor (I can see William following the Dutch example and abdicating when he reaches about 75 and that would allow his heir to use Windsor as a new title for William as Cambridge would have merged with the Crown).

[royal-blue]

If Harry were to marry in a couple of years and become a Duke and Duchess, what kind of married couple would they be?

Would they be encouraged to be leading royals like William and kate or would they be encouraged to keep a lower profile like Edward and Sophie?

[Iluvbertie]

They will be front-line royals for the simple reason that they will be the only other royals in their generation.

[royal-blue]

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie

They will be front-line royals for the simple reason that they will be the only other royals in their generation.

Very true!

[Osipi]

I would imagine though that unless Harry has left the military by then, he and his wife would still be considered part time royals and given time to adjust such as William and Kate had after they married.

[Kristan]

Originally Posted by Countessmeout

If the queen doesn't, they will gain the title when Charles is king anyways, as male line grandchildren of the monarch. As it is Will who will be king when his kids wed, it will stand to be seen how Harry's younger kids will be titled. His eldest will gain Harry's dukedome (if a son) when Harry dies. Harry's younger kids may very well just be left as Prince/Princess (like Prince Michael and Princess Alexandra) and not given a duchy on marriage. It may have been different IMO, if their grandfather was king when they wed.

I can see Duke and Duchess of Sussex. And their children will be Lord/Lady, and the eldest what ever Harry's Earl title is, until Charles is king IMO.

I love the royals, but I don't get all the details that they are about. Why would Harry/Henry's children not be Prince/ss? His cousins are, and his child will be 5th in line (until William and Kate have another)

[Ish]

Originally Posted by Kristan

I love the royals, but I don't get all the details that they are about. Why would Harry/Henry's children not be Prince/ss? His cousins are, and his child will be 5th in line (until William and Kate have another)

The 1917 LPs regarding princely titles states that the children of the monarch, the male-line grandchildren of the monarch, the eldest son of the heir apparent's eldest son, and the wives of the above will be HRH Prince(ss). Further LPs have been issued to grant the children of the then Princess Elizabeth, the DoE, and now all the children of William the title, but until Charles is king any children of Harry's are not covered under the current LPs.

Harry's children would be comparable to the children of the Kents and Gloucesters - male-line great-grandchildren of a monarch, at least until Charles becomes king.

[Kristan]

Originally Posted by Ish

The 1917 LPs regarding princely titles states that the children of the monarch, the male-line grandchildren of the monarch, the eldest son of the heir apparent's eldest son, and the wives of the above will be HRH Prince(ss). Further LPs have been issued to grant the children of the then Princess Elizabeth, the DoE, and now all the children of William the title, but until Charles is king any children of Harry's are not covered under the current LPs.

Harry's children would be comparable to the children of the Kents and Gloucesters - male-line great-grandchildren of a monarch, at least until Charles becomes king.

Oh I see, got it!

With regards to titles, If Harry gets Duke of Sussex, would he have 'more' as Kate has Countess of Strathearn, Baroness Carrickfergus added on the end of her title.