Titles and Styles of Harry, his Future Wife and Children

[Iluvbertie]

Not a professor - just a simple High School History teacher.

[Royal Newbie]

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie

Not a professor - just a simple High School History teacher.

There is absolutely nothing simple about being a high school teacher. I have the utmost respect and gratitude for those who take up the mantle to educate our children.

On topic, if Harry never marries, will he be given a Dukedom at some point?

[Iluvbertie]

Quite possibly.

George V created his sons as dukes before their weddings e.g. George VI was created Duke of York in 1920 but didn't marry until 1923, Prince Henry was created Duke of Gloucester in 1928 but didn't marry until 1935 and Prince George was created Duke of Kent in 1934 about a month before his marriage.

Go back a generation and Queen Victoria created both of Edward VII's sons Dukes before they married - Prince Eddy was created Duke of Clarence in May 1890 and George V was created Duke of York in May 1892 but didn't marry until 1893.

It is the present Queen who has taken the approach of creating her heirs Dukes/Earls on their wedding days rather than at other times.

[Anna Catherine]

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie

Edward can become DoE directly if...

Okay that makes sense. That is how I understood it. Thank you so much.

[cmkrcwi]

That's not correct. The plan is that following the death of the Queen and The Duke of Edinburgh Charles (who will then be King) will re-grant the title of "Duke of Edinburgh" to Edward. That is what was announced at Edward and Sophie's wedding.

Now it could be that a process has to take place where everyone in front of Edward has to formally "refuse" the title, but the plan is for Edward to get it.

[Iluvbertie]

The plan is for Charles to regrant the title but...the title can only be regranted if it merges with the Crown.

If it doesn't merge then it can't be regranted.

There is no process for those ahead of Edward to 'renounce' that title without an Act of Parliament to strip Philip's other heirs of the title and Parliament won't get involved in matters concerning specific titles in that way - as it would lead to debates about titles and the rights of women to inherit them as well.

The most likely scenario is that it will be regranted when Charles becomes King and his father dies - whichever of these comes second but if that doesn't happen then other scenarios come into play - some of which I have outlined above - including Edward inheriting the title directly - if all those ahead of him in the line of succession to Edinburgh die before Philip and The Queen.

[Jenafran]

Iluvbertie, I agree with you, I remember very clearly at the wedding they announced it (without any stipulations) and I saw it on my monarchy DVD as well. I don't necessarily disagree with the processes that would have to happen but Edward is getting the title after Phillips passing, they wouldn't insult him like that and that would give him 3 titles, jus

[Princess BellyFlop]

I guess we'll just see in due time. I tend to agree with Iluvbertie on that one though

[KittyAtlanta]

Here you go...before we all die of repetition. The Earl of Wessex

Thx. Bertie, you always do such a good job (NOT kidding).

[Krisotter]

I could see Charles creating Harry a duke before marriage, should he become king before Harry marries, perhaps right before his coronation.

QE2 will keep to her current practice, unless something catastrophic happens within the family. She's got her process, and it works for her and the family thus far.

[Princess BellyFlop]

I belive that Charles wants to reduce the RF so I doubt that he will create Harry a Duke before Harry marries. I would even go to say that Harry might even not get any royal Dukedom at all. In my book there is nothing wrong with staying a prince and having a princess Harry. I just don't know how the little red ones (let me dream) would be called.

[Excalibur]

Originally Posted by Princess BellyFlop

I belive that Charles wants to reduce the RF so I doubt that he will create Harry a Duke before Harry marries. I would even go to say that Harry might even not get any royal Dukedom at all. In my book there is nothing wrong with staying a prince and having a princess Harry. I just don't know how the little red ones (let me dream) would be called.

Regardless of whether Harry gets an additional title, the Letters Patent of 1917 stipulate that his children will be called Lord/Lady X Mountbatten-Windsor if they are born while HM The Queen is on the throne. Grandchildren of the monarch (except for the eldest son of the Prince of Wales) cannot pass on HRH or princely status.

Once Charles ascends to the throne (or if they are born while Charles is King), they would then be called Prince/Princess X of Wales, since Harry would then be the son of the monarch.

If Harry has no children until after William becomes King, then they would be Lord/Lady X Mountbatten-Windsor, since he would no longer be a descendant of the monarch.

Timing is everything.

[NGalitzine]

They would still be male line grandchildren of King Charles III, so unless there are changes to the 1917 Letters Patent they would be entitled to be HRH and Prince or Princess even if born after the accession of King William V. Their situation would be the same as Princess Alexandra of Kent, Prince Michael of Kent, Prince William of Gloucester and Prince Richard of Gloucester who were all born after the death of their grandfather George V but were still male line grandchildren of a monarch.
.

[NGalitzine]

Originally Posted by Excalibur

Once Charles ascends to the throne (or if they are born while Charles is King), they would then be called Prince/Princess X of Wales, since Harry would then be the son of the monarch.

Once Charles succeeds to the throne Harry ceases to be HRH Prince Henry of Wales and automatically becomes HRH The Prince Henry since his father would no longer have the title of Prince of Wales so any children Harry has will not be "of Wales". That designation would fall to any children of HRH The Duke of Cornwall & Cambridge once he is created Prince of Wales by his father King Charles III.

[Iluvbertie]

Originally Posted by Jenafran

Iluvbertie, I agree with you...Edward is getting the title after Phillips passing...

There was ONE large stipulation - that the title has to merge with the Crown - that means that the King and the Duke are the same person. If that scenario doesn't happen then the title isn't available for regrant to anyone.

It wouldn't be an insult to Edward if Harry ended up with Edinburgh while Harry's yet to be born niece became the monarch,.

[Excalibur]

Originally Posted by NGalitzine

They would still be male line grandchildren of King Charles III, so...they would be entitled to be HRH and Prince or Princess...

I had assumed Letters Patent referred to the present Sovereign, but in reading the exact verbiage, I now see it refers to any Sovereign. Thanks for the correction!

Originally Posted by NGalitzine

Once Charles succeeds to the throne Harry ceases to be HRH Prince Henry of Wales and automatically becomes HRH The Prince Henry.

Thanks, I wasn't entirely sure of the "of Wales" part. Could this possibly be a reason then for the Queen (or Charles) to grant him an additional title? So that his children would have a place designation?

[Iluvbertie]

Yes - if Harry remains simply Prince Harry (or officially Prince Henry) then his children will be Lord/Lady Mountbatten-Windsor if born in the present reign or once Charles becomes King simply HRH Prince/ess xxxx but of nowhere special (of the UK of course but nowhere else).

[Jenafran]

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie

There was ONE large stipulation - that the title has to merge with the Crown - that means that the King and the Duke are the same person. If that scenario doesn't happen then the title isn't available for regrant to anyone.

It wouldn't be an insult to Edward if Harry ended up with Edinburgh while Harry's yet to be born niece became the monarch,.

I didn't realize that it had to merge with the crown. Where can I read more about that? Can you point me in the right direction? Thanks!

Also, don't understand your second comment. :-)

[Iluvbertie]

I don't know where to find something specific about titles merging with the Crown but I can give you two recent examples.

George V was created Duke of York by his grandmother Queen Victoria. He then automatically added the titles Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay etc the instant Victoria died. So for most of 1901 he was known as Duke of Cornwall and York. When his father created him Prince of Wales in November 1901 he was still the Dukes of Cornwall, Rothesay and York. When Edward VII died he instantly became King. The Cornwall and Rothesay titles instantly went to his eldest son and heir apparent - the future Edward VIII. Both the titles Prince of Wales and Duke of York ceased to exist - they had merged with the Crown as the title holder had become King and were thus both available for regrant. George V created his own eldest son and heir PoW fairly quickly but waited over a decade before recreating the Duke of York title for his own second son. As George V had been the holder of the title the only way that he could recreate it for his second son was if the title had ceased to exist when he became King - when it had 'merged with the Crown'. The title then merged again in 1936 when George VI became King and was thus available for The Queen to use in 1986 for Andrew.

My second comment is in relation to the idea that it would be insulting to Edward if he (Edward) didn't get the Edinburgh title but I don't see how that could be the case if that title had passed by inheritance to someone with a better claim to the Edinburgh title than Edward - e.g. Harry (who is currently 3rd in line to the title).

[Jenafran]

Thanks Bertie, appreciate the info.