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  #181  
Old 02-15-2020, 12:49 PM
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Every life has restrictions and most people don't get that much freedom to find "personal fulfilment". Meghan IMO didn't realise what she was getting into when she married Harry. He has always been shaky, I think about Royal life...and while I don't know, I wonder if he DID make things clear to her what the UK was like, what the press was like and what royal life was like.
During the engagement interview he said he had to sit down and have a discussion with her about the life. I think it's one thing to mentally understand and it's quite another to live it.

LaRae
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  #182  
Old 02-15-2020, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
During the engagement interview he said he had to sit down and have a discussion with her about the life. I think it's one thing to mentally understand and it's quite another to live it.



LaRae
...I think that it is true, she didn't realise quite what the British press is like..or Brtiish life in general and she didn't spend any time here prior to her engagement.
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  #183  
Old 02-15-2020, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
This idea of family legacy (such as it is) is hardly unknown for many families out there who run businesses. Children expected to fill the shoes of those before them. The BRF is a family business...it has a larger scale and grander history but ultimately it's a family business of sorts.

Not everyone is capable or even wants to remain part of it. Not all of them do...some start out and then decide it's not for them.
There certainly are some similarities; although I'd say being part of the family that 'rules' a country comes with an even bigger responsibility than being part of a family business.

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It's not a calling for all of them or Anne would of allowed her children to be titled. Edward and Sophie have decided their children won't be fulfilling the role they were born into either.
Anne's children were NEVER expected to fulfill a royal role.

Whether the queen wanted Edward's children to fulfill such a role is very questionable - it seems the general thought in the 90's that they were not supposed to do so. So, they went with the expectations of the head of the family - and in that way fulfilled their role (I expect them to take up some charity roles just like Beatrice and Eugenie - but time will tell).

It was never a question whether the children of the future king were expected to take up such a role: they were. If Harry didn't want to it would have been better to indicate so before becoming a full-time royal or at the latest at the time of his marriage. People would have been disappointed (and many people would have blamed Meghan probably even more than now) but they might have been more understanding compared to the way they handled it now - pretty much the worst case scenario.
  #184  
Old 02-15-2020, 01:27 PM
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.....
It was never a question whether the children of the future king were expected to take up such a role: they were. If Harry didn't want to it would have been better to indicate so before becoming a full-time royal and at the latest at the time of his marriage.

I think Harry had made a decision to do it, I think it's clear they were both on board, they talked about it a little. I simply think it turned into a very unhappy situation for him and he/they decided they couldn't go further in their positions.




LaRae
  #185  
Old 02-15-2020, 01:37 PM
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I think she knew all this, but hubristically, imagined she could [through sheer force of will] change an institution that has endured nigh on a 1000 years, tame an overmighty Press and 'update' the British people into something she found more congenial to her ethos...
No doubt with the best possible ['charity driven'] motives - her belief that they could 'change the world' shone out of every pore during the engagement Interview.

A lack of self confidence seems not to be one of her attributes..and she has perhaps, bolstered her troubled husband into actual ACTION [on a decision he had long prevaricated over].

When she discovered she could not, she bailed..and her [desperately in love] hubby went too..
  #186  
Old 02-15-2020, 01:40 PM
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I think Harry had made a decision to do it, I think it's clear they were both on board, they talked about it a little. I simply think it turned into a very unhappy situation for him and he/they decided they couldn't go further in their positions.
Given how they present themselves, I don't think it was just Harry making a decision, surely Meghan was fully involved as well. So, I'd say they made the decision together. When they thought first surfaced and what other motives might be behind the decision we can just guess and each of us will have different guesses.

Nonetheless, the way it was handled showed to me that things weren't very well thought-through and unfortunately it both damaged the BRF and their own 'brand'. I do hope the transition will somehow turn out for the better for all parties involved.

N.B. Will leave it at this as we've been instructed to avoid circular discussions and I'm afraid it is turning into one.
  #187  
Old 02-15-2020, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
The BRF is a family business...it has a larger scale and grander history but ultimately it's a family business of sorts.

LaRae
Well that's one perspective that I realise some people do have but it's one that many others simply wouldn't understand.

The institution is so much more than that on so many levels. I wouldn't take the tongue in cheek epithet "the firm" as a serous moniker.
  #188  
Old 02-15-2020, 03:11 PM
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There certainly are some similarities; although I'd say being part of the family that 'rules' a country comes with an even bigger responsibility than being part of a family business.


Anne's children were NEVER expected to fulfill a royal role.

Whether the queen wanted Edward's children to fulfill such a role is very questionable - it seems the general thought in the 90's that they were not supposed to do so. So, they went with the expectations of the head of the family - and in that way fulfilled their role (I expect them to take up some charity roles just like Beatrice and Eugenie - but time will tell).

It was never a question whether the children of the future king were expected to take up such a role: they were. If Harry didn't want to it would have been better to indicate so before becoming a full-time royal or at the latest at the time of his marriage. People would have been disappointed (and many people would have blamed Meghan probably even more than now) but they might have been more understanding compared to the way they handled it now - pretty much the worst case scenario.
exactly. Anne's children would not ever be royal and Anne clearly didn't want them to have titles or anything like that. with Edward it was announced at his marriage that his children would not have royal titles and it was not likely that they would ever be expected to do royal duties...
If Harry was really against the idea of his taking up royal duties, it would have been a lot better to announce it at the time of his marriage.. I expect Meg would have had some flak but she and H would have at least been upfront..
  #189  
Old 02-15-2020, 03:19 PM
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It seems that currently their purpose in life is more about 'them doing good on their own terms'.
If they are actually able to do “good on their own terms” whether through charity, a foundation, or humanitarian work, then that’s great. I’m just interested in the end results; will they be successful in helping others. TRF can continue on their own terms, nothing is lost, and it might actually be a win for everyone involved.

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Had I married into a job, as she did.. I'd certainly have given myself longer [5+years] to settle in - barely 12 months [if one includes the Maternity leave] isn't ANY time at all [unless one is 'flighty']..
Or unless said job was compromising one’s health, including mental. I quit a job once for that reason, best decision of my life, and I am not “flighty”.
  #190  
Old 02-15-2020, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
I don't assume either. We don't know. We only know what they allow us to know.

I like the BRF generally...I simply think they must continue to change how they do things if they want to continue on successfully.



LaRae
Well they have evolved...even if slowly. Diana's death brought about significant changes, they're up to date via social media, etc. In terms of actual substantive changes re: lifestyle, I think it's important that the Royal children know that they can always talk to their parents about issues so that if they ever have real problems with living "the life", they can feel open enough to talk about it.
  #191  
Old 02-15-2020, 03:28 PM
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No, they can leave..but it means that other people will probably not feel al that sympathetic to them-.
That’s a different way of looking at it guess. I have had friends over the years quit toxic work environments, and I have always felt sympathy for what they endured before making the often hard decision to quit.

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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
I'd say the basic difference is that some of us see 'being a member of the royal family' not just as any other job but as a responsibility (some might even call it calling) that you were born into (Harry) or a life-time commitment you took upon you (Meghan).
People change, environments change, commitments change. Maybe working for the firm wasn’t Harry’s calling. So you evaluate, soul-search and take a leap of faith and hope for the best. At least, I hope for the best. I want their endeavors to be successful because I believe more people will benefit.
  #192  
Old 02-15-2020, 03:47 PM
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"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." - Ralph Waldo Emerson.

Change is scary. Life is difficult. Expectations of the world to fit into what is considered your lot in life can be a millstone around the neck. These are things that we, as humans, experience in our lifetime. We either conform and accept or we choose another path.

I cannot judge whether or not Harry and Meghan did the right thing. I cannot predict if they'll be successful in their new endeavors or not. I cannot point fingers and place blame on any person, place or thing in this situation. I'm just an observer watching what happens as it does.

There is a part of me though that is cheering this couple on. It takes courage to change things. It takes courage to walk away from a path of security and everything one has known in their life. It takes courage to realize that something isn't working and needs to be changed and then actually change things. There are no guarantees, no success written in stone, no surefire indication of "right" or "wrong" moves. Life is trial and error and there will be bumps and pot holes in the road no matter what the path.

Its also been said and, to me, proven to be true that one cannot make anyone else happy if they are not happy themselves. In this respect, it is a good thing to put one's state of mind first and foremost and the rest will fall into place. To me, this is what Harry is doing. He's putting himself and his wife and child first and doing what they both have decided is best for their family.

I wish them the best wherever their roads may take them. People are deliciously human and that's what makes them so darned interesting.
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  #193  
Old 02-15-2020, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
I think Harry had made a decision to do it, I think it's clear they were both on board, they talked about it a little. I simply think it turned into a very unhappy situation for him and he/they decided they couldn't go further in their positions.




LaRae
I don't think it's fair to put all this mess on Harry - as someone who's very quick to say that people shouldn't be blaming Meghan for this situation, you doing the exact same thing to Harry is quite baffling to me - because we don't know what happened there, what issues that they were facing became unbearable enough for them to decide to leave the BRF.

I made my peace with their decision, while it's sad, because I'll miss Harry and I thought Meghan might be a terrific addition to the BRF, it just wasn't meant to be. But also I wanted to say that while there was a time that Harry quite openly spoke about leaving, he weathered out the storm, he got much calmer, he found his role and if we take the engagement interview into consideration, he was clearly excited about the future and working within The Firm. I think going back to these words is hurtful to Harry, because it's wiping off the amount of work he put into himself in the last few years, the development of him as a person, that we all saw. And no matter what his decisions were the last couple of months, he doesn't deserve that.

No matter what it was, if it was the press being awful or them not being able to create the role within the institution that they wanted (which is something that I believe in), to me blaming one of them for this situation is just hurtful to them. And I mean both of them.
  #194  
Old 02-15-2020, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where this no path and leave a trail." - Ralph Waldo Emerson.

Change is scary. Life is difficult. Expectations of the world to fit into what is considered your lot in life can be a millstone around the neck. These are things that we, as humans, experience in our lifetime. We either conform and accept or we choose another path.

I cannot judge whether or not Harry and Meghan did the right thing. I cannot predict if they'll be successful in their new endeavors or not. I cannot point fingers and place blame on any person, place or thing in this situation. I'm just an observer watching what happens as it does.

There is a part of me though that is cheering this couple on. It takes courage to change things. It takes courage to walk away from a path of security and everything one has known in their life. It takes courage to realize that something isn't working and needs to be changed and then actually change things. There are no guarantees, no success written in stone, no surefire indication of "right" or "wrong" moves. Life is trial and error and there will be bumps and pot holes in the road no matter what the path.

Its also been said and, to me, proven to be true that one cannot make anyone else happy if they are not happy themselves. In this respect, it is a good thing to put one's state of mind first and foremost and the rest will fall into place. To me, this is what Harry is doing. He's putting himself and his wife and child first and doing what they both have decided is best for their family.

I wish them the best wherever their roads may take them. People are deliciously human and that's what makes them so darned interesting.
Beautiful post and much applause.
As we say in my family, someone has to be the adult in the room. Thank you for being the adult in the room!
  #195  
Old 02-15-2020, 07:55 PM
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What a lovely post Osipi. I agree with a lot of it. Do what is best for you. No one can predict the future but best of luck and hope for the best.
  #196  
Old 02-15-2020, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Fem View Post
I don't think it's fair to put all this mess on Harry - as someone who's very quick to say that people shouldn't be blaming Meghan for this situation, you doing the exact same thing to Harry is quite baffling to me - because we don't know what happened there, what issues that they were facing became unbearable enough for them to decide to leave the BRF.

I made my peace with their decision, while it's sad, because I'll miss Harry and I thought Meghan might be a terrific addition to the BRF, it just wasn't meant to be. But also I wanted to say that while there was a time that Harry quite openly spoke about leaving, he weathered out the storm, he got much calmer, he found his role and if we take the engagement interview into consideration, he was clearly excited about the future and working within The Firm. I think going back to these words is hurtful to Harry, because it's wiping off the amount of work he put into himself in the last few years, the development of him as a person, that we all saw. And no matter what his decisions were the last couple of months, he doesn't deserve that.

No matter what it was, if it was the press being awful or them not being able to create the role within the institution that they wanted (which is something that I believe in), to me blaming one of them for this situation is just hurtful to them. And I mean both of them.

It's not just on him. I say Harry as the main person because he has publically said more than once he has considered leaving the family, since they announced he has publically said HE made the decision. It's not some idea that just happened when Meghan came along. So no I am not blaming Harry. It was a decision they both came to IMO.


LaRae
  #197  
Old 02-15-2020, 09:44 PM
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Well said Osipi! Well said!!
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  #198  
Old 02-16-2020, 12:25 AM
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I think that it is true, she didn't realise quite what the British press is like..or Brtiish life in general and she didn't spend any time here prior to her engagement.
All things that Meghan and Harry should get the full blame for; both are too old to have not taken such a huge step seriously and look deeply into what it meant. When Meghan said yes to the ring she said yes to his lifestyle and family; that she is jumping ship on the commitment she made to the BRF says something.
  #199  
Old 02-16-2020, 03:30 AM
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Dual citizenship is certainly something to consider but most people who hold dual citizenship are not required to appear at a coronation and swear their allegiance to a newly crowned monarch. While I understand the concept, as do most people here, there's a huge difference between an average citizen holding dual citizenship and one who must swear his allegiance to a newly crowned monarch with the eyes of the world upon his but who also spoke the words required to obtain US citizenship. The wording of those two oaths very clearly contradict each other and would, in theory, mean that he'd need to decide on one or the other and not both. That, in fact, is what my question was regarding and whether anyone here was better placed than myself to comment on that because I don't know all of the legal and immigration intricacies around those matters. Trying to figure out the legality and practicality of a rather complicated situation really doesn't mean that other posters need to "get a grip" it simply means that everyone is doing their best to figure out how that will work in practice.
Technically there is a way around it: the oath of allegiance is spoken during the naturalization ceremony, to get there you have to first live in the US a few years as a Green Card holder and than apply for citizenship. As the spouse of a US citizen Harry is entitled to a Green Card, but not a citizenship- not until , again, he has lived in the us for a few years (I remember five years, but things may have changed since trump took office)

He can easily bypass the oath by never applying for a citizenship and simply living in the US on a GC- this will mean some responsibilities and benefits would not apply to him, but he will be able to freely work, and he will not have to take the oath at any point, thus creating a contradiction in his allegiance to the crown.

The downside? Once the marriage ends he is likely to lose his GC and will have to return to the UK, unless he proves a valid reason to stay- and even than it’s not a given.
It could be that is why they are in Canada, waiting for Harry to be approved for a GC.


I guess we’ll have to wait and see.
  #200  
Old 02-16-2020, 04:03 AM
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Or unless said job was compromising one’s health, including mental. I quit a job once for that reason, best decision of my life, and I am not “flighty”.
I am not sure how Meghan's job as a royal was "compromising one’s health, including mental”...But if she had been willing to ignore the press and just focussed on her work, IMO, she would have been fine.
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