The Duke and Duchess of Sussex to Step Back as Senior Royals: January 2020

[Denville]

Charles is known to have quite a hot temper himself. It's not all Diana with their tempers.

You never thought Harry would leave...have you missed the times he's said in interviews he's thought of leaving etc?



LaRae

I wasn't talking about tempers but about swinging around and being changeable. Volatile doesn't really mean hot tempered, but erratic.
Yes I have heard that he talked about leaving at times but I did not take it very seriously. Royals often claim that they didn't ask for the job and that it is a lto harder than it looks and so on....

 

[Betsypaige]

I hope not. That is very unhealthy- to hold grudges. And, it will certainly be difficult to mend their relationship if that’s both of their mindsets.

Indeed it will. I initially blamed William for not being as supportive as Harry was with he and Kate, but given that he was merely expressing concern about moving so rapidly (and maybe about Meghan herself) and given Harry’s tendency to cut people off, I’ve changed my thinking. Then there is the fact that Harry seemingly resents his brother for getting all the attention while he is pushed out. I’m sure Charles is desperate to reconcile them, but he might just need to wait for time to hopefully heal all wounds.

How do you know the Queen is angry?

I posted the link to Ingrid Seward’s article. I agree with her analysis.

About the word “toxic”, that’s true - I can’t argue with you, you’re all making good points. However, where there’s smoke, there’s fire. Too many accounts report on Harry being unhappy with not getting his own “court” and being pushed out, added to Meghan’s complaint about not being supported, for me not to take this seriously.

 

[Pranter]

I wasn't talking about tempers but about swinging around and being changeable. Volatile doesn't really mean hot tempered, but erratic.
Yes I have heard that he talked about leaving at times but I did not take it very seriously. Royals often claim that they didn't ask for the job and that it is a lto harder than it looks and so on....

You have just described Charles (based on biographies) he absolutely blows his top, rages (to the point of throwing things) then is fine. His sons come by their natures honestly as we say here, and from both sides.

I can understand ignoring an off hand remark/joking remark about leaving..but not when it's said in more than a couple interviews over a few years. Ppl need to stop blaming this situation on Meghan. Harry gave fair warning for years and ramped it up after the situation continued.



LaRae

 

[Denville]

How would Harry expect his "own court"? he is the second son.. He shared staff with William when they were younger but as they grew older, and Will got married etc, they began to do less work together. But I can't quite see how Harry would expect a court.

You have just described Charles (based on biographies) he absolutely blows his top, rages (to the point of throwing things) then is fine. His sons come by their natures honestly as we say here, and from both sides.

I can understand ignoring an off hand remark/joking remark about leaving..but not when it's said in more than a couple interviews over a few years. Ppl need to stop blaming this situation on Meghan. Harry gave fair warning for years and ramped it up after the situation continued.



LaRae

That's havigna hot temper.. not being volatile.
and as for Harry, if he was really constantly complaining about wanting to leave, why didn't he do something about it? Why wait till he had made a commitment to his full time royal duties, married, gotten a home, and a title and given the impression he was settled down and ready to do his job? WHy didn't he tell the queen before he got married that he had grave doubts about whether he really wanted the royal job, and that he would now marry Meghan - NOT take a royal title and go away and make his own life?

 

[Betsypaige]

I hope not. That is very unhealthy- to hold grudges. And, it will certainly be difficult to mend their relationship if that’s both of their mindsets.

Indeed it will. I initially blamed William for not being as supportive as Harry was with he and Kate, but given that he was merely expressing concern about moving so rapidly (and maybe about Meghan herself) and given Harry’s tendency to cut people off, I’ve changed my thinking. Then there is the fact that Harry seemingly resents his brother for getting all the attention while he is pushed out. I’m sure Charles is desperate to reconcile them, but he might just need to wait for time to hopefully heal all wounds.

How do you know the Queen is angry?

I posted the link to Ingrid Seward’s article. I agree with her analysis.

About the word “toxic”, that’s true - I can’t argue with you, you’re all making good points. However, where there’s smoke, there’s fire. Too many accounts report on Harry being unhappy with not getting his own “court” and being pushed out, added to Meghan’s complaint about not being supported, for me not to take this seriously.

what did she get vs what did she want? What was her expectation? It could have been a culture clash. That’s highly likely based on her comments about British stiff upper lips. Maybe her idea of support was getting to personally argue about every single unfair article. Maybe she wanted the BRF to issue a supportive statement every time someone was mean to her. Who knows.

This is why I don’t think she recognized the support she was getting. She probably expected people to constantly put their arms around her, but that’s just not how it is in the BRF - perhaps not even among the British people, I’m not sure. Maybe she expects everyone to know what’s being said about her, in the media or social media, but how can they when I’m sure they’ve learned not to pay attention to that sort of thing. If she was struggling, she should have said something - people aren’t mind readers. I just don’t think Meghan had an open mind about the life she was entering into. She was supposedly close to Charles; he would have been the perfect person to talk to ....

You have just described Charles (based on biographies) he absolutely blows his top, rages (to the point of throwing things) then is fine. His sons come by their natures honestly as we say here, and from both sides.

I can understand ignoring an off hand remark/joking remark about leaving..but not when it's said in more than a couple interviews over a few years. Ppl need to stop blaming this situation on Meghan. Harry gave fair warning for years and ramped it up after the situation continued.


LaRae

I agree with this, both points.

I hold both Meghan and Harry responsible, though if it’s true about him feeling as if he was being pushed out, being upset that Charles sided with the Queen in not giving them a separate “court” at Windsor..then I’m confused.

 

[Pranter]

That's havigna hot temper.. not being volatile.
and as for Harry, if he was really constantly complaining about wanting to leave, why didn't he do something about it? Why wait till he had made a commitment to his full time royal duties, married, gotten a home, and a title and given the impression he was settled down and ready to do his job? WHy didn't he tell the queen before he got married that he had grave doubts about whether he really wanted the royal job, and that he would now marry Meghan - NOT take a royal title and go away and make his own life?

I'm just using your own description of volatile.

He did do something about it..he's left. We don't know behind the scenes what all he's done before it came to this.

I believe they had full intentions of settling down and doing his job. I think the situation just went so negative for them they felt unable to continue. We know this conversation (based on the Queen's words) went on for months.

So those folks who didn't care for them (and have been saying they need to go away) don't have to worry about it any longer. They are gone.



LaRae

 

[Denville]

I doubt if he seriously meant it.. if he had, then he cuodl have talked to charles and the queen abuot it before he got married. that would have been the perfect time to leave.. before he was committed to a home, a title etc. Unless he really DID believe he was going to have a "court" and gold plated wash basin of his own -.

 

[Betsypaige]

How would Harry expect his "own court"? he is the second son.. He shared staff with William when they were younger but as they grew older, and Will got married etc, they began to do less work together. But I can't quite see how Harry would expect a court.

I put that in quotes for a reason. Harry wanted he and Meghan to have the same kind of set up that William and Kate do, after their offices separated

I believe they had full intentions of settling down and doing his job. I think the situation just went so negative for them they felt unable to continue. We know this conversation (based on the Queen's words) went on for months

So if that’s the case, the question is “what went wrong”?

 

[Eskimo]

Something interesting I picked up from another forum...

Whatever property they buy in North America it will be easy to find out who is on the title (the information is openly available) and if they use a shell company to buy the press will investigate it to find out where the funds are really coming from. There will be no escaping the press they don't like for them

 

[Lilyflo]

@Betsypaige Thank you for the replies - I appreciate them. This thread is moving so fast it's hard to keep up with the difference between actual quotes from BRF members, quotes from 'sources' via royal reporters, opinion pieces by others, our own opinions etc etc. It's helpful if we can all try to be clear about that (myself included of course).

 

[Denville]

I put that in quotes for a reason. Harry wanted he and Meghan to have the same kind of set up that William and Kate do, after their offices separated



So if that’s the case, the question is “what went wrong”?

I Don't think he would get quite the same set up as Wil and Kate.. though I doubt if he was stuck in a back office with cheap furniture. But he's NOT the same as Wil and Kate.. and that's a fact.. He had to accept that. He's not going to starve or be ill treated but he wont end up King or have all the stuff that Will has got.
Maybe he did intend to commit to the job, with Meghan once they married,,, but well he does seem volatile.. easily influenced and changeable. Perhaps if he had said these things before, the queen though that he would be thinking differetnlly the following day because he is like that.

 

[Erin9]

About the word “toxic”, that’s true - I can’t argue with you, you’re all making good points. However, where there’s smoke, there’s fire. Too many accounts report on Harry being unhappy with not getting his own “court” and being pushed out, added to Meghan’s complaint about not being supported, for me not to take this seriously.

I get they were unhappy. Obviously. This wouldn’t have happened otherwise. And since it’s a family business, that certainly means friction with family. For sure William. Likely others. Harry and Meghan clearly wanted to do things that weren’t the BRF way. Hence the desire for some financial independence. Meghan’s crack about living vs thriving or something like that. Obviously unhappy.

Meghan not feeling supported seems likely just based on her complaint about the stiff upper lip way of handling things. Or people- who ever that was supposed to be- not asking how she was doing.

Toxic is just such a strong word to define it. But- who knows. Maybe they’d use that word. But for it to be word I’d take seriously it would have to come from them, with explanations. For now- it sounds like a word someone chose to get sympathy.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

Harry has proven to be a disappointment. No man or woman should allow themselves to be isolated from the family that has loved and supported him for decades! She has an abysmal family life so she wants him to have a bad one as well? He was so desperate to get married and have a happily ever after that he clung to the one woman who wouldn't run from his royal status, but didn't make sure she was strong like Kate and would support him not make him give up his life.

 

[Betsypaige]

I don’t agree that the Queen needs to step aside or create a regency - even at 93 she’s strong and very capable, and beloved. I want her as Queen as long as possible. However, I think this article raises good points about the complications arising from this situation.

Maybe this is why Harry wants to escape - as much as his father and brother love him, there are things they (or the Queen) can not or will not grant him because their duty is to support and protect the monarchy.

The fallout with Harry and Meghan has only made the question more urgent. The impact of Charles’s arrested development is plain to see. The prince has lacked authority even over his own household.

At one stage Charles was closer to Harry, his more highly strung son, while William chafed impatiently at his father’s foibles. Now the tables have turned and the two future monarchs are said to have closed ranks against the demanding Sussexes. The fact is they could all do with a break from the stifling constraints of family, but they are stuck on the same royal merry-go-round. You either stay on or fall off, but it’s hard to move forward.

An unofficial palace coup failed three years ago when Lord Geidt left the Queen’s service and Edward Young took over as her private secretary. Charles had hoped to bring the Queen into his own orbit at Clarence House. The result has been an uneasy compromise, with neither the son nor his mother exercising full authority. The Queen had increasingly delegated family matters, previously the domain of Prince Philip, now a frail 98, to Charles. But when Megxit struck, the cry went out: send for Her Majesty! Harry wanted to broker his deal directly with Granny, not Papa. Because who, after all, has the ultimate power?

The brooding Charles, it is said, is given to introspection. Being the longest-serving king-in-waiting in British history doesn’t help (even the playboy prince, Edward VII, took the throne at 59). His main preoccupation is with securing his own succession, and that of Camilla as queen. In this respect, the behaviour of Harry and Andrew is an irritant he could well do without. With each passing scandal, admiration for the Queen increases — and respect for the monarchy dwindles.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/let-king-charles-deal-with-harry-and-meghan-bvv0jl2g0

 

[Lilyflo]

I get they were unhappy. Obviously. This wouldn’t have happened otherwise. And since it’s a family business, that certainly means friction with family. For sure William. Likely others. Harry and Meghan clearly wanted to do things that weren’t the BRF way. Hence the desire for some financial independence. Meghan’s crack about living vs thriving or something like that. Obviously unhappy.

Meghan not feeling supported seems likely just based on her complaint about the stiff upper lip way of handling things. Or people- who ever that was supposed to be- not asking how she was doing.

Toxic is just such a strong word to define it. But- who knows. Maybe they’d use that word. But for it to be word I’d take seriously it would have to come from them, with explanations. For now- it sounds like a word someone chose to get sympathy.

I could imagine Harry using 'toxic' to describe the press coverage or even their own situation where they feel they aren't thriving in the face of that coverage but I couldn't imagine him saying his own family or the monarchy were toxic, which is why I had to question the source.

 

[Pranter]

I could imagine Harry using 'toxic' to describe the press coverage or even their own situation where they feel they aren't thriving in the face of that coverage but I couldn't imagine him saying his own family or the monarchy were toxic, which is why I had to question the source.

I don't think he did say it. AGAIN it's the media saying it ...hardly a reliable source.


LaRae

 

[Betsypaige]

@Betsypaige Thank you for the replies - I appreciate them. This thread is moving so fast it's hard to keep up with the difference between actual quotes from BRF members, quotes from 'sources' via royal reporters, opinion pieces by others, our own opinions etc etc. It's helpful if we can all try to be clear about that (myself included of course).

You’re welcome ! I know, lol - and I’m sure I’m guilty of that as I’m hungrily reading everything I can on this - and posting a lot of it.

He had to accept that. He's not going to starve or be ill treated but he wont end up King or have all the stuff that Will has got.

Well, that’s the point...he didn’t accept it

I get they were unhappy. Obviously. This wouldn’t have happened otherwise. And since it’s a family business, that certainly means friction with family. For sure William. Likely others. Harry and Meghan clearly wanted to do things that weren’t the BRF way. Hence the desire for some financial independence. Meghan’s crack about living vs thriving or something like that. Obviously unhappy.

Meghan not feeling supported seems likely just based on her complaint about the stiff upper lip way of handling things. Or people- who ever that was supposed to be- not asking how she was doing.

Toxic is just such a strong word to define it. But- who knows. Maybe they’d use that word. But for it to be word I’d take seriously it would have to come from them, with explanations. For now- it sounds like a word someone chose to get sympathy.

Honestly, I think I’m inclined now to take anything their friends say seriously since their obviously biased and tend toward extreme hyperbole...

I could imagine Harry using 'toxic' to describe the press coverage or even their own situation where they feel they aren't thriving in the face of that coverage but I couldn't imagine him saying his own family or the monarchy were toxic, which is why I had to question the source.

This is very true...good point!

 

[Erin9]

I could imagine Harry using 'toxic' to describe the press coverage or even their own situation where they feel they aren't thriving in the face of that coverage but I couldn't imagine him saying his own family or the monarchy were toxic, which is why I had to question the source.

I would agree with that assessment. I hope anyhow.

 

[Lady Marlboro]

There is a segment in "The Diamond Queen" documentary done by Andrew Marr where Harry talks about the Queen leaving the family to find their own way to do things. Then he adds (paraphrasing a bit) but if you get it wrong you will be put in your place as you should. It would seem he forgot that part and has now been put in his place. I hope he doesn't regret it but I fear he will.

As far as a quieter life that he seems to want, maybe he could become a househusband and let Meghan be the bread winner.

 

[Countessmeout]

Harry has proven to be a disappointment. No man or woman should allow themselves to be isolated from the family that has loved and supported him for decades! She has an abysmal family life so she wants him to have a bad one as well? He was so desperate to get married and have a happily ever after that he clung to the one woman who wouldn't run from his royal status, but didn't make sure she was strong like Kate and would support him not make him give up his life.

Isolated??? He has moved to an igloo with no outside contact has he??

God I laugh. Meghan gave ipbher country, job and family for the UK and that's okay. No one thought she was isolating herself or abandoning her family. And yes she has family. Her mother is family. She has a niece and nephew she has a relationship with. She has friends who she cocsiders her family which for some people is just as important as blood.

Harry isn't in exile. They plan to be in at he UK hence Frogmore being kept. They will see his family frequently. They can skype and phone. He may see members of his family as often as he did living in the UK full time. This isn't a family who has dinner every Sunday and drops in for coffee during the week.

Ever think maybe the relationship with his family will be better??? If he isn't miserable from royal duties and pressure?? They can enjoy just family as family?


Meghan hasn't forced him to give up anything. He has spoken of wanting to leave total life years before they met. And even his Royal life reflects that. Harry has never been satisfied with cutting ribbons, doing tours and little speeches. He didn't simply want to be a face for some one else's charity. Building Sehtebale, building the IG, working hands on in Africa with game wardens in the summer. He wanted more then the traditional Royal role. And clearly before he even knew Meghan he was itching at the confines being a royal put on that work.

I think Meghan simply helped him realize what he wanted. He loves his family but not the life. Being private citizens he can pursue his own passions. He has found in Meghan someone like him who actually wants to get her hands dirty.

Archie will have the best of both worlds. He will have a more private life and easier to have a normal private adult life one day. He will get to see Grandma Doria but also his moms chosen family when in North America. And when in the UK he can see his cousins and grabdfather. Though he may share no blood, I have little doubt the Mulroney kids and Litt kids will likely be like cousins. Heather who came to visit has a child hear Archie in age. These bonds are important as well. Royal connections aren't the only important ones.

 

[wyevale]

I can imagine him/them saying anything TBH - as an example, I give you 'collaborating' with the Queen [as if they were recording an album with her].

 

[Queen Claude]

How would Harry expect his "own court"? he is the second son.. He shared staff with William when they were younger but as they grew older, and Will got married etc, they began to do less work together. But I can't quite see how Harry would expect a court.

I can believe that he was expecting his own court. Camilla Tominey stated that he was expecting to get his own court and was displeased that the Queen vetoed the idea and Charles supported the Queen's decision.

Robert Jobson, in his biography of Charles, stated that Charles gave his sons their own (unofficial) court when, by my calculation, they were still teenagers with the rationale that he did not want his sons to feel controlled by his office. My guess is that Charles, and Diana when she was alive, had their own ideas on how their sons would be raised and integrated into royal life, which may have been different than the Queen's way of doing things.

It makes no sense, under the current construct, to give Harry his own court, aka there be four courts, BP (the Queen), CH (Charles), KP (William) and the Sussex equivalent. Heck, truth be told, William and Harry having their own court never made sense to me, and even Charles having his own court is questionable. Anyhoo, I suspect that Harry assumed that he would get his own court due to the model that he thinks Charles supports, but then his nose got out of joint when the Queen vetoed the idea and Charles went along with it. This is why I also think that there may be some truth regarding Harry being upset about the four generations photo, I dismissed it initially, but I am starting to wonder if there were things in their upbringing that led Harry to believe that, in certain aspects, there would not be distinctions drawn between him and William.

 

[acdc1]

Sometimes I wonder if things would have turned out differently if they hadn’t jumped head-first into everything. I know that they were very much in love from very early on- it was extremely clear in their engagement interview. But they were engaged only about a year after meeting. I wonder what would have happened had they taken things slower- maybe if Meghan had moved to London and lived there for a year or two, doing some sort of lower pressure, less high status work, like for a humanitarian cause or something like that. She could have better gotten a sense of the monarchy, and it may have given her a chance to form friendships and gather a support system around herself before totally diving into royal life and duties, as well as starting a family immediately after the wedding.

I know she may have discovered the exact thing that she has seemed to realize now- she doesn’t like living in the UK and doesn’t want to be a full-time royal. But it may have been helpful and helped to avoid all this drama and heartbreak if she had realized that before getting married, and they may have had time to work things out in a better, less underhanded way.

 

[Kataryn]

Tthe long suffering public do not want to pay any more for a bunch of younger royals. And Charles does not want to undertake expenses for younger royals if he can avoid it because then He will be stuck with paying them for the rest of his life.
He wanted the 2 sons to work, WIlliam as future King, Harry to take on a commonwealth role and any other stuff that cropped up. Bbut in the next generation I think the public will be saying " we don't want ot pay for Charlotte to cut ribbons for the rest of her life.. or do some made up job to keep her on the payroll... " They will remember how Andrew messed up and used his job to make dubious money, and they will remember how Harry walked out on the job of second royal supporter. So the public will be very hostile IMO to the idea of more than the heir working..

LOL the "long-suffering public" actually seems to love HM (well, not a lot in Scotland, but in England) and all that talk about the taxpayer's money should be at the PM.


But please, stop talking about the "taxpayer" as if those masses of people actually care. In fact they spend not that much money on the RF and the RF brings in billions of pounds through tourism. Harry and Meghan are surely another point of sale: "where was Meghan so unhappy?".


But I'm still shocked about the treatment of HM and Charles by Harry and Meghan. Yes, I understand they wnated their freedom and they got it and now we will see how this ends.

But HM and Charles lived their whole live in service to their people and now that Charles' second son is looking for a different way (which I'd fully support) they are put in such a terribly embarrassing situation by Harry. I guess (just a guess) that Harry has had talks about leaving for ages for why spare the family when you confide in the media? But I don't think anyone realised how urgend the added pressure from Meghan would make it and the public announcement was H&M's way to put pressure on the topic because they wanted out.


I don't think in all their imaginations they ever thought they would be left with family support but without anything Royal. My son when I talked to him about this today (he brought up the topic!!) said: **** happens! Well, yes, it does.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

@Queen Claude, I can't imagine Harry would have a serious issue with that generations photo; wouldn't he know the history behind such a photo?

 

[texankitcat]

There is a segment in "The Diamond Queen" documentary done by Andrew Marr where Harry talks about the Queen leaving the family to find their own way to do things. Then he adds (paraphrasing a bit) but if you get it wrong you will be put in your place as you should. It would seem he forgot that part and has now been put in his place. I hope he doesn't regret it but I fear he will.

As far as a quieter life that he seems to want, maybe he could become a househusband and let Meghan be the bread winner.

He will never have a quiet life with a woman who has spent her life seeking attention, fame and fortune as an actress. Now that she has more fame than she ever dreamt of and shaken off the restrictions of the Royal family, she will use Harry to pitch parts for her at Celebrity events, premiers, etc..

I am sure she has many plans for Harry in the spotlight in a supporting role to her ambitions.

 

[Denville]

@Queen Claude, I can't imagine Harry would have a serious issue with that generations photo; wouldn't he know the history behind such a photo?

Of course eh would or at least Should. but it is possible that if he was in an !"Im unhappy and so is Meghan" mood, it bothered him.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

@Queen Claude, I can't imagine Harry would have a serious issue with that generations photo; wouldn't he know the history behind such a photo?

Right, I mean he is 35 years old not 5!

 

[acdc1]

I can’t see them attending Royal Ascot. I don’t think Meghan wants to be around any of the family in the future unless she absolutely must, and I don’t see Harry attending any events unless he is required to.

I agree, I think that the only events we will see them attend are those that are basically obligatory- funerals, Charles’s coronation when the time comes (although I would actually be more surprised if Meghan attends than if she doesn’t). I don’t think we’ll see them at Christmas, Royal Ascot, Trooping the Colour, etc. I wonder if they’ll even attend Beatrice’s wedding.

 

[Betsypaige]

He will never have a quiet life with a woman who has spent her life seeking attention, fame and fortune as an actress. Now, she has more fame than she ever dreamt of and shaken off the restrictions of the Royal family, she will use Harry to pitch parts for her at Celebrity events, premiers, etc..

I am sure she has many plans for Harry in the spotlight in a supporting role to her ambitions.

No, he won’t. Maybe some places will be less inclined towards media pressures, but he’s still always going to be Prince Harry...and Meghan has no desire to live out in the country, away from the hubbub, being an ordinary person. She’s out to take advantage of her husband’s name and connections by marketing herself - them - and making money off of their “brand”. They need to be in the public eye somewhat if they’re going to maximize their profit potential. I can’t believe I’m saying this, lol.

Sometimes I wonder if things would have turned out differently if they hadn’t jumped head-first into everything. I know that they were very much in love from very early on- it was extremely clear in their engagement interview. But they were engaged only about a year after meeting. I wonder what would have happened had they taken things slower- maybe if Meghan had moved to London and lived there for a year or two, doing some sort of lower pressure, less high status work, like for a humanitarian cause or something like that. She could have better gotten a sense of the monarchy, and it may have given her a chance to form friendships and gather a support system around herself before totally diving into royal life and duties, as well as starting a family immediately after the wedding.

That would have been the sensible thing to do, but patience doesn’t seem to be their strong suit.