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  #1161  
Old 01-10-2020, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
All the discussion so far has been about the "deal" or "solution" to the Sussex's proposals, I wonder what will happen if they dislike what ever is finally presented and decide to simply go it alone living off Trust Funds and savings for a short time before they get their own income from various commercial ventures. In reality there is no way to stop them is there?

Why would they? If they aren't working members of the family and not receiving funding then they would be free to work etc just like Eugenie/Beatrice.



LaRae
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  #1162  
Old 01-10-2020, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
All the discussion so far has been about the "deal" or "solution" to the Sussex's proposals, I wonder what will happen if they dislike what ever is finally presented and decide to simply go it alone living off Trust Funds and savings for a short time before they get their own income from various commercial ventures. In reality there is no way to stop them is there?


In reference to that first part, that’s simply not true. They’re have been numerous posts in this thread referencing tabloid articles that have nothing to do with the Sussex’s proposal that posters seem to think are facts. The first thing that comes to mind is that stupid rumor that “the final straw” was the photo of HM and her heirs and how that supposedly triggered H&M. Utter nonsense.
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  #1163  
Old 01-10-2020, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helen.CH View Post
It is odd, I agree. In one sentence they say, step back but still support......what does that mean???
They just want to make it a big thing like always �� if they really wanted to step back, it would mean no more duties, titles, merchandising....

I would appreciate if they really stepped back with all consequences, but doubt it.

When they are launching of a hollywood-style life and in their sense better thing would be a too big contrast to what monarchy is meant to be, I hope the BP will tell them off immediately and things calm down.

No one needs Meghan, british monarchy is good the way it is and the idea if a smaller group of members as working royals is the best way for the future as many other european monarchies have proofed before.
I think that the problem with "stepping back", given who they are and their white-hot fame, is the unsavory people who need respectability who will come out of the woodwork with offers of private jet trips, vacations on yachts, generous charity donations, heaps of praise and compliments, etc.

Charles himself has not been immune to plane rides and yacht holidays, but he might want to keep up his son's income to keep them from becoming dependent on sleazebags.

Harry and Meghan seem particularly vulnerable to the kind of fugazi operators who will do anything to associate with famous Royal do-gooders. They have to be careful.
  #1164  
Old 01-10-2020, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Okay, what will be the best solution?

IMO the BRF will not cast H&M adrift - at least not at this point and it's easier to control them inside the fold. But there is no way the BRF can give in to the proposals H&M have outlined.
H&M cannot become "financially independent" and at the same time remain active members of the BRF. The only thing they have to sell anyway is their name and status (brand) and it would be unacceptable for the BRF to commercialize their royal position.

So I think the best solution is to allow H&M to settle abroad, Canada seems likely - culturally and politically, and perhaps it's easier to - control - them in a commonwealth country?
Here they can focus on a few - well-chosen (read: approved by the palace) charities and causes and raise funds for that to their hearts desire - but not earning their own money.
H&M can forget all about "reforming" the BRF from within. - They will soon realize that they have been sidelined and that they are quietly getting fewer and fewer jobs at home in the UK.
They will be invited to attend the major events at home, where they can stand in the background looking suitable scenic.
Also, I think the palace will insist on appointing advisors (perhaps through the Canadian government, they will be difficult for H&M to reject) who will basically have to okay everything H&M do and say.
At least on paper H&M will get what they asked for: A much lower profile and able to focus on their own causes.

As for the economy. I think H&M will get the same amount they get now. It's cheaper and less worrying than if they had to finance themselves - and the money can be cut or withdrawn if need be...

Protection: Due to him being an Afghanistan veteran Harry remains a high-risk target, so I think they will keep their protection officers, but with more emphasis on Canada providing a permanent perimeter security. I.e. a permanent police presence where they live and happen to be when in Canada. - That will be at the expense of the Canadian taxpayers. But keep in mind that Canada has the means to "limit" their stay in Canada if H&M don't conform. I can easily imagine various ways of doing that.

Frogmore: They will keep the place and live there, those relative few times and short periods they happen to be in Britain. Still rent-free. I think it would be provoking a negative reaction from H&M if Frogmore was taken from them or they suddenly had to pay rent.
Later on they may be "encouraged" to settle with an apartment in one of the palaces. So in say five years they may move out of Frogmore.

Archie: Well, if they intend to settle in Canada and are happy there, he will grow up as a Canadian. And go to school there eventually.

- They key to all this to keep them out of sight and out of mind, of the British public, as much as possible. And as they will quietly get fewer and fewer official jobs (that's what they want, right?) and as time goes fade more and more away. Especially when Charles becomes king and W&K's children become teens. Focus will quietly shift away from H&M.
Eventually it will dawn on H&M that they have been exiled in anything but name. And that they have been put under administration.

That I think would be the most ideal solution, given the circumstances. And the fact that at least Harry is still family and unlikely to just being kicked out of the BRF. Meghan's status remains to be seen. That depends on whether the BRF blame her for all this or believe Harry is the main force.

- There are just a couple of unresolved questions:
A) Will H&M accept these conditions? They don't have much to bargain with though. Except causing trouble and making a spectacle of themselves. Would they do that?
B) What happens when H&M don't conform to these conditions? Because at some point they will test these limits.
Who really knows Muhler but your last sentence.....I think so true.
  #1165  
Old 01-10-2020, 07:35 PM
Majesty
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jannedde View Post
I think the distance happened when Prince William married Kate, rightly so she (and the Middletons) became his family. Harry tagged along not rocking the boat and was quite lonely.

Harry and Catherine seemed to get along quite well before Harry met Meghan. The rumor is that the rift between the brothers actually came from William advising against Harry rushing to marry Meghan. I suspect , however, that Harry feeling sidelined as William took a more prominent role in the Firm (post his marriage to Catherine) was a factor too. If the latter was a factor though, Harry comes across as insecure and even juvenile.
  #1166  
Old 01-10-2020, 08:12 PM
Aristocracy
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile View Post
I think Mr Trudeau has more important things on the table at the moment.

Yes. 63 Canadians died two days ago when their commercial flight was accidentally shot down by an Iranian missile after take-off from Tehran.



I imagine the PM has no strong opinion about Harry and Megan living in Canada, but he doesn't want the political blowback if Canadian taxpayers have to foot a security bill. We Canadians are happy to have visitors appreciate our beautiful country, but we expect them to pay their way. Canadians may welcome Harry and Megan for vacations and respite, but as almost permanent residents that cost us money? I'm not so sure.

I hope he and Meghan find a place to live and roles where they feel safe and comfortable, but if he is isolated from his family, that will not help him in the long run. Meghan's network of friends will need to provide a substitute family to the couple, and that doesn't seem ideal.
  #1167  
Old 01-10-2020, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawin View Post
Yes, as you point out Oprah Winfrey has denied the rumor:

https://people.com/royals/oprah-winf...-prince-harry/



You hit the nail right on the head. The average American views royals as just another kind of celebrity - like a movie star or rock musician or (gasp) the Kardashians.

I remember - years ago - a coworker telling me how much she preferred Sarah over Diana because Sarah was "fun" and "acted just like one of us" while Diana was much more dignified in public.

The fact that members of the BRF aren't supposed to act like one of us completely escaped her.

Because they are just like us. Royal is a made up term of the life of ordinary people into extraordinary status. That was easy a long time ago. But, today, we know hat they are nothing different or better than we. And, what keeps them in the forefront is that they are celebrities. There is nothing holy or special. And the work that the Sussexes are walking out on is cutting ribbons here and making appearances there. They are ornamental positions. Perhaps, they can do some meaningful work on their own. That I don't know.
They don't need money. They have plenty.
  #1168  
Old 01-10-2020, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caethi View Post
Yes. 63 Canadians died two days ago when their commercial flight was accidentally shot down by an Iranian missile after take-off from Tehran.



I imagine the PM has no strong opinion about Harry and Megan living in Canada, but he doesn't want the political blowback if Canadian taxpayers have to foot a security bill. We Canadians are happy to have visitors appreciate our beautiful country, but we expect them to pay their way. Canadians may welcome Harry and Megan for vacations and respite, but as almost permanent residents that cost us money? I'm not so sure.

I hope he and Meghan find a place to live and roles where they feel safe and comfortable, but if he is isolated from his family, that will not help him in the long run. Meghan's network of friends will need to provide a substitute family to the couple, and that doesn't seem ideal.
[...] This Canadian would also welcome the family to settle here at their own expense, like any other new Canadian. However, as Muhler wrote upthread, I also cannot imagine the Sussexes outside the fold of their respective families, even if one of them is the famously dysfunctional Royal family. I am intrigued to see what solution Prince Harry's wise old grandmother comes up with
PS no wonder the Sussexes want to abandon Britain: I have been horrified by the vituperative slander that is being thrown at them by the tabloid press and readers. One needs only to read some of the comments on the Sussex instagram site to become physically ill.
  #1169  
Old 01-10-2020, 08:40 PM
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Its occurred to me that many are seeing all of this as Harry and Meghan walking away from royal duties and the royal family. That's exaggeration. Its no where near what is actually happening. No where is it said that they will not ever do any royal duties or engagements. They're not being exiled out of the family at all or giving the Queen the British equivalent of the Bronx cheer.

They want to live part time in Canada. How much different is that from the Queen living for a few months at Balmoral or at Sandringham for her private time? Only difference I see is that the Queen's private times away are on her estates in the UK whereas Harry and Meghan's would be in a Commonwealth country. The muss and fuss about who's going to finance this or that will be sorted out and come to an agreement. I don't see it costing the British taxpayer a dime anywhere. All of this is where it takes time to work things out and be feasible from all angles and the pertinent people are the ones that are consulting and trying to come up with solutions and they're definitely not running to the media and TV stations and telling us what's what.

I think the main "break" here seems to be that they wish to differentiate between their "royal duties and engagements" and their philanthropic work through their foundation. This is shown by them stating that their foundation would not receive funding from the Sovereign Grant. It gives them more freedom on how to run their foundation. They're not going to, all of a sudden, drop the patronages that the Queen has asked them to take on at all. They're not going to become avid "red carpet strutters" as they've never been that way even during their courtship, engagement period and after their wedding.

I honestly don't see them doing this for personal fame and fortune and bright lights but rather changing and adapting just how they do things in a different manner that perhaps would be more successful for everything they choose to back as an incentive or an organization or a cause.

Until we actually know without a doubt what is fact away from the media stories and the reporter's points of view and everyone else's opinion, I'm going to give these two the benefit of the doubt that what they're trying to accomplish is for the good and not because of mental health issues, or ego stroking or any of the bazillion thoughts floating around these days around these two people.

Yeps... I do hope the clear heads prevail.
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  #1170  
Old 01-10-2020, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Its occurred to me that many are seeing all of this as Harry and Meghan walking away from royal duties and the royal family. That's exaggeration. Its no where near what is actually happening. No where is it said that they will not ever do any royal duties or engagements. They're not being exiled out of the family at all or giving the Queen the British equivalent of the Bronx cheer.

They want to live part time in Canada. How much different is that from the Queen living for a few months at Balmoral or at Sandringham for her private time? Only difference I see is that the Queen's private times away are on her estates in the UK whereas Harry and Meghan's would be in a Commonwealth country. The muss and fuss about who's going to finance this or that will be sorted out and come to an agreement. I don't see it costing the British taxpayer a dime anywhere. All of this is where it takes time to work things out and be feasible from all angles and the pertinent people are the ones that are consulting and trying to come up with solutions and they're definitely not running to the media and TV stations and telling us what's what.

I think the main "break" here seems to be that they wish to differentiate between their "royal duties and engagements" and their philanthropic work through their foundation. This is shown by them stating that their foundation would not receive funding from the Sovereign Grant. It gives them more freedom on how to run their foundation. They're not going to, all of a sudden, drop the patronages that the Queen has asked them to take on at all. They're not going to become avid "red carpet strutters" as they've never been that way even during their courtship, engagement period and after their wedding.

I honestly don't see them doing this for personal fame and fortune and bright lights but rather changing and adapting just how they do things in a different manner that perhaps would be more successful for everything they choose to back as an incentive or an organization or a cause.

Until we actually know without a doubt what is fact away from the media stories and the reporter's points of view and everyone else's opinion, I'm going to give these two the benefit of the doubt that what they're trying to accomplish is for the good and not because of mental health issues, or ego stroking or any of the bazillion thoughts floating around these days around these two people.

Yeps... I do hope the clear heads prevail.

Yes well said!


LaRae
  #1171  
Old 01-10-2020, 09:12 PM
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The Metropolitan Police are responsible for their security not the Canadian government. If they live in Canada they aren't really visiting.
  #1172  
Old 01-10-2020, 09:19 PM
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Yes, we only pay for the royals when they are here on official duties. If they are here on private visits, including moving here permanently, we don't pay. We didn't pay for security for any of Harry's private trips for Invictus, as he was here for charity and not an official visit.

Canada is not going to complain about having them here. Especially if they promote some of our charities and businesses. Our only complaint about royals tends to come when we have to foot bills for royal tours.
  #1173  
Old 01-10-2020, 09:26 PM
Majesty
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gerry View Post
This Canadian would also welcome the family to settle here at their own expense, like any other new Canadian.



Canada obviuously suits Meghan, but do you think Harry will adapt to living there in the long term ? He strikes me as very British kind of guy (football, rugby, polo, cricket, etc.) and Canada is very North American, albeit with its own idiosyncrasies (like Quebec for example). Culturally, I think he would actually adjust better to a place like Australia or South Africa.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Florestane View Post
The Metropolitan Police are responsible for their security not the Canadian government. If they live in Canada they aren't really visiting.

So, do you expect officers from the Metropolitan Police (that is, the London Police) to relocate to Toronto or Vancouver for five or six months a year to protect Harry and his family ?



Can such a police force even legally operate in Canada on a permanent (or semi-permanent ) basis without some agreement with the Canadian government ? I would imagine that police forces operating in Canada must be under the jurisdiction of the federal or the provincial and municipal governments.
  #1174  
Old 01-10-2020, 09:34 PM
Aristocracy
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Florestane View Post
The Metropolitan Police are responsible for their security not the Canadian government. If they live in Canada they aren't really visiting.
This is Meghan's project. Coming from the USA, she does not have the same understanding of public service or public spiritedness. It is an extreme form of capitalism where everyone is a customer with an unequal amount of cash in their wallet. Their public services receive significanlty less funding than over here. The public sector over there is disdained as something that is begrudgingly provided for poor people. Broadly speaking, on this side of the Atlantic public services are generally treasured (and fought over) as common good. No offence, but the attitude over there is that you pay for even the most basic of things based on the opportunities they you have achieved through the luck of having personal abilities or contacts. Until Boris has had his 5 or 10 years, the public sector is a cushion or a buffer zone that gives a sense of unity in the UK. I think we are proud of it because the state still provides (somehow) basic health care, good educational standards, quality police, transport system etc.

The couple will already have budgeted for private security - like any other American celebrity. There will be an amount set aside in the plan. But oddly, she doesnt appreciate that the monarchy is the most rarefied form of public service and is what bestows that special honour and sparkle in the form of royal titles and status. Strange they reject their roles as public sector workers. That's their choice. Frankly this divergence seems inevitable because it is a culture clash she is unwilling to reconcile. They could pull this off by plugging into the megabucks of the US TV circuit. Harry remains one of us so hopefully he will be ok. Think of him in the middle of these domestic tensions pulled in different directions and trying to do the right thing - poor lad.
  #1175  
Old 01-10-2020, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Canada obviuously suits Meghan, but do you think Harry will adapt to living there in the long term ? He strikes me as very British kind of guy (football, rugby, polo, cricket, etc.) and Canada is very North American, albeit with its own idiosyncrasies (like Quebec for example). Culturally, I think he would actually adjust better to a place like Australia or South Africa.
Canada and the UK are not that different culturally. Spoken from someone who did the opposite of him, and moved to the UK as a Canadian girl. Just because rugby is bigger in Australia/NZ then Canada, doesn't mean the transition would be easier. The fact that they have friends, and Harry and Meghan have both spent personal time in the country (not just work trips) will help the transition. There is football (even if he will have to get used to us calling it soccer) and rugby here (cricket not so much).

Quote:
So do you expect officers from the Metropolitan Police (that is, the London Police) to relocate to Toronto or Vancouver for five or six months a year to protect Harry and his family ?



Can such a police force even legally operate in Canada on a permanent (or semi-permanent ) basis without some agreement with the Canadian government ? I would imagine that police forces operating in Canada must be under the jurisdiction of the federal or the provincial and municipal governments.
No metro police would have no jurisdiction.

But they are not entitled to public police protection in Canada, except when on official duty. So if they need round the clock protection, they will have to have private security funded by someone. Canada is not forking out millions in protection for royals who are here for private purposes.
  #1176  
Old 01-10-2020, 09:39 PM
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https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/c...ueen-23kfqrmbn


Behind a paywall there, but the important bit IMO is that Harry and Meghan were asked to put in writing what they envisioned for their Royal future. Harry said "No" as he thought it would leak to the press. Royal aides insisted. He acquiesced and wrote it down. It leaked.
  #1177  
Old 01-10-2020, 09:55 PM
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Deleted.....
  #1178  
Old 01-10-2020, 10:08 PM
Serene Highness
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leopoldine View Post
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/c...ueen-23kfqrmbn


Behind a paywall there, but the important bit IMO is that Harry and Meghan were asked to put in writing what they envisioned for their Royal future. Harry said "No" as he thought it would leak to the press. Royal aides insisted. He acquiesced and wrote it down. It leaked.


It needed to be written down. This couldn’t just be a verbal conversation. That’s utterly absurd imo.
  #1179  
Old 01-10-2020, 10:18 PM
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The poster below is absolutely correct. You can't just up and move to Canada permanently. It's very difficult to immigrate here currently as our government has closed off the point system for independent class immigrants and business class immigrants. Harry especially would not be eligible.

I speak from experience - my daughter sponsored her husband (spousal sponsorship), Spousal sponsorship is one of the few remaining avenues still open for immigration, most of our other immigrants are refugees. A small number of family class (with family here) also immigrate but the waiting lists for this are very long. Skilled worker class are for highly specialized jobs/high demand jobs like in the oil industry. My daughter used work for an immigration lawyer - she lost her job because he downsized his office from a once high of 50 employees to 1 remaining employee other than himself because of the reduction of immigrants permitted (he did not take spousal sponsorship cases, he mostly focused on independent immigrants and business class.)

Although Meghan could get a work permit as she had for Suits, she can't sponsor Harry as she is not a Canadian citizen. (She have to be a permanent resident first for at least 3 years but to be a permanent resident, she'd have to be sponsored by a Canadian citizen spouse. My son-in-law is finally eligible to be a citizen, they have been married 7 years and waited 3 years for her spousal sponsorship permanent residency application to be approved.)

As far them living here part time, I don't think most Canadians will object UNLESS we are expected to provide and pay for their security and financially support them which will NOT go over well. I can't see our government ever agreeing to that because that would be very unpopular.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hel View Post
I'm still unclear as to how they'll legally establish a base here. Six month visitor visas are explicitly meant *not* to be used to establish a permanent residence.

And while Meghan would be able to get a visa if she goes back to being a working actress (and can land a role in Toronto), Harry simply doesn't qualify for any of the available immigration visas. He doesn't have the work experience for the Skilled Worker program or the self-employment visas, and no other visas even come close to fitting his profile. https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration...te-canada.html

Note that Canada used to have a "pay to immigrate" investor visa class, but the program has been closed.

In short, if they *do* land permanently in Canada, they're queue jumping more qualified applicants and taking gross advantage of their money and connections, with little advantage to Canada.


To be clear about something, since apparently it needs to be said: I'm not looking back at previous behaviour and viewing it through the lens of the current circumstances to find some "aha! They were evil the whole time" conclusion. I admire Meghan and Harry's work prior to this point. I just think this particular presumption that they can just move to Canada, and the hypocrisy of crying financial independence while citing Duchy funds, are poorly thought out and insupportable.
  #1180  
Old 01-10-2020, 10:22 PM
Serene Highness
 
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Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Because they are just like us. Royal is a made up term of the life of ordinary people into extraordinary status. That was easy a long time ago. But, today, we know hat they are nothing different or better than we. And, what keeps them in the forefront is that they are celebrities. There is nothing holy or special. And the work that the Sussexes are walking out on is cutting ribbons here and making appearances there. They are ornamental positions. Perhaps, they can do some meaningful work on their own. That I don't know.
They don't need money. They have plenty.
Please go back and read my last sentence: "The fact that members of the BRF aren't supposed to act like one of us completely escaped her."

Whether they are just like us or not, members of the BRF represent the UK. They do NOT represent themselves, as celebrities such as movie stars or rock musicians do. Because of that there is an expectation that they act in a dignified manner, at least in public, which Sarah did not always do.

For example,the members of the BRF cannot do a lot of things celebrities often do: voice their opinions on politcal issues, argue in public, attack their boy/girl friend's ex-wife/husband, pose nude or even scantily clad, the list goes on and on.

Furthermore, members of the BRF do NOT simply cut ribbons here and make appearances there and perform ornamental work (and please show me where the Sussexes have stated this is what they are walking out on).

And at her coronation the Queen swore an oath before God, so yes, there is something "holy or special."

But there is one things royals DO have in common with the rest of us. If they don't like their job they don't get to ignore their supervisor's wishes (in this case the Queen), rewrite their job description, and then announce it to the public, a fact Harry and Meghan have ignored.

I understand that Harry and Meghan are very unhappy and I believe they have valid reasons for being so. But that does NOT excuse the way they have behaved. It is very self-centered and completely disrespectful to the Queen.
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