The Duke and Duchess of Sussex and Family, News and Events 6: Aug. 2021- Oct. 2022

[yukari]

Matt Wilkinson (The Sun) seems to be at the hearing.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1494649415533015043

Strong words from Home Office in response to Harry's claims he would fund private security. In documents handed to the court, the Home Office states Harry did not offer private funding when he returned in June 2021 or "any of the pre-action correspondence which followed".

The Home Office docs also say government "attributed to the Claimant a form of exceptional status whereby he is considered for personal protection security by police with precise arrangements being dependent on the reason for his presence in Great Britain" on "case-by-case" basis.

Wow it gets worse, the Home Office skeleton argument adds: "The Claimant has failed to afford the necessary measure of respect to the Defendant and RAVEC as the expert, and democratically accountable, decison-maker on matters of protective securoty and associated risk assessment."

Harry HAS now offered to pay for Met security in his confidential 250-page witness statement and exhibits document and also in his 33-page confidential Statement of Facts and Grounds filed last September, the Home Office say. Harry's skeleton argument is also confidential

 

[HighGoalHighDreams]

The dig about Harry failing to defer to the experts as expert hits on what members of this forum said when this dispute first became public knowledge. While few would question that Harry's perception of danger for himself and his family is real, he apparently refuses to accept the reality that those in power to make this decision are the ones best equipped to make it.

 

[Granada]

Sometimes, and this is one of those times, The Sussex's are their own worst enemies and act out in ways that only harden Public perception of their entitlement and arrogance.
From what I'm reading in various UK Media, this legal action is very unpopular there and it *seems* Harry's bid to have "rent a cop" ( as one poster called it) Royal Protection Services for future visitis of The Sussex Family is doomed to fail.
Not quite sure why he went this route ? Charles offered them accommodations at Clarence House for a proposed visit. It was pointed out that while Harry and Family was staying there, and involved at events WITH the Royal Family they would have complete RPO Security.

But on their own private visits and events, NO Govt provided security. Seems entirely reasonable for a Couple that "quit" and left in such a manner that hurt, confused, angered and dumbfounded their previous supporters. Not to mention the Family and Government. Less than two years into married life as popular Senior Royals....Also were The Commonwealth Ambassadors. But not only did they quit their positions, They left the Country all together for life in the USA.

What REALLY is the problem with that ? Take your own private Security Team as you visit Friends, Relations or Events.
It actually smacks to me of the ill received 'half in-half out' proposal that Harry and Megan just can't seem to let go of.
They want to have the perks and privilege of Govt Security when they are "private individuals" that do not work or represent the Family or Government anymore. I think this petty and foolhardy attempt will fail too.

Again, who is advising these two ?

 

[Denville]

Sometimes, and this is one of those times, The Sussex's are their own worst enemies and act out in ways that only harden Public perception of their entitlement and arrogance.
From what I'm reading in various UK Media, this legal action is very unpopular there and it *seems* Harry's bid to have "rent a cop" ( as one poster called it) Royal Protection Services for future visitis of The Sussex Family is doomed to fail.
Not quite sure why he went this route ? Charles offered them accommodations at Clarence House for a proposed visit. It was pointed out that while Harry and Family was staying there, and involved at events WITH the Royal Family they would have complete RPO Security.

But on their own private visits and events, NO Govt provided security. Seems entirely reasonable for a Couple that "quit" and left in such a manner that hurt, confused, angered and dumbfounded their previous supporters. Not to mention the Family and Government. Less than two years into married life as popular Senior Royals....Also were The Commonwealth Ambassadors. But not only did they quit their positions, They left the Country all together for live in the USA.

IWhatREALLY is the problem with that ? Take your own private Security Team as you visit Friends, Relations or Events.

I thought that he felt his own private security people would not have the inside knowledge that Met officers would have

 

[angieuk]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...h-Court-legal-battle-against-Home-Office.html

The Home Office through their Legal Team have said at Court; it is irrelevant whether he offered to pay for police protection himself; as the Met Police are not for Hire under any circumstances!

I don't know why everything has to be dragged through the Courts all the time.

 

[Claire]

what is sad and rather oblivious - is that this could and should have remain private. However Harry and his advisors thought it was better to have it in the public arena.

 

[Granada]

Denville, I still believe if there was ANY credible inside knowledge of information by Security Officials suggesting that The Sussex's were in ANY kind of danger, "the power that be" there would certainly act. No expense spared.

However, as of now, they are not going to allow Resources or RPO's to be diverted to The Sussex's, to allay Harry's possible 'fears' as he goes about visiting People and Events of Harry and Megan's choosing, while on their "private time" in the UK.
Cressida Bonas, his ex girlfriend allegedly said that Harry ranted and complained about "paparazzi lurking around" when clearly there wasnt any.

It will be interesting to see in any case, how the ruling comes down AND how The Sussex's react.

 

[Osipi]

I thought that he felt his own private security people would not have the inside knowledge that Met officers would have

They wouldn't. The Met Police RPOs have a connection to British intelligence similar to what the US Secret Service have. Ordinary police protection accorded in the US to people that need it don't have that kind of connection to US intelligence agencies that the Secret Service have if I'm not mistaken.

In the US Harry wouldn't be able to "rent" security from the Secret Service or the FBI or the CIA or any other government funded organization responsible for national security. He shouldn't be surprised too that it's not available for him in the UK the way he wants it to be. The BRF and their security is part of national security and as a private citizen now, there's nothing that ties Harry (or his family) to a need for national security when they're on their own. As was stated earlier in a post, he *would* have that kind of protection should he actually be with the BRF somewhere.

I personally think Harry is grasping at straws to retain something that he didn't give enough thought to when he upped stakes and rode off into the sunset in California. He basically *is* irrelevant to the UK these days and that has to sting. But that was his choice to make. I just don't think either Harry or Meghan thought things through and were blinded more by what they hoped to gain rather than take into account all they had to lose.

 

[Durham]

Thanks to Yukari for this :

"The Home Office docs also say government "attributed to the Claimant a form of exceptional status whereby he is considered for personal protection security by police with precise arrangements being dependent on the reason for his presence in Great Britain" on "case-by-case" basis.

Wow it gets worse, the Home Office skeleton argument adds: "The Claimant has failed to afford the necessary measure of respect to the Defendant and RAVEC as the expert, and democratically accountable, decison-maker on matters of protective securoty and associated risk assessment."



So the police will provide protection if it is considered necessary. I think that's reasonable. As it says they're the experts. Not sure why he's unhappy with that.

The comment about not affording respect to the defendent is about as close as it gets to telling Harry to go take a hike. Or jog on as we say in Britain. I wonder who gave that form of words the nod?

We have a Home Secretary (a woman of colour as it happens) who takes no prisoners.

 

[Sionevar]

One interesting aspect of Harry's lawsuit - he claims he is still in the immediate line of succession to the throne.

I don't know how he defines 'immediate', but my definition would be The Queen - Prince Charles - Prince William - Prince George. I would treat Harry as being in the collateral line of succession.

 

[Durham]

One interesting aspect of Harry's lawsuit - he claims he is still in the immediate line of succession to the throne.

I don't know how he defines 'immediate', but my definition would be The Queen - Prince Charles - Prince William - Prince George. I would treat Harry as being in the collateral line of succession.

Yes I agree he's in a collateral line.

As I understand things the only adults who have full time rpo's are those in direct line of succession. And their spouses.

The others have rpo's if they are carrying out engagements on behalf of the monarch. I think that's right?

And why does he think that he's more at risk in the UK than in the US? Makes no sense. No one can carry a firearm in the UK unless they have a license. There's no second amendment rights in Britain!

 

[Denville]

Denville, I still believe if there was ANY credible inside knowledge of information by Security Officials suggesting that The Sussex's were in ANY kind of danger, "the power that be" there would certainly act. No expense spared.

However, as of now, they are not going to allow Resources or RPO's to be diverted to The Sussex's to allay Harry's possible 'fears' as he goes about visiting People and Events of Harry and Megan's choosing while on their "private time" in the UK.
Cressida Bonas, his ex girlfriend allegedly said that Harry ranted and complained about "paparazzi lurking around" when clearly there wasnt any.

It will be interesting to see in any case, how the ruling comes down AND how The Sussex's react.

They would protect Harry, of course but Im not sure how much info they would share with non Met officers... or perhaps even with Harry himself....

 

[Osipi]

They would protect Harry, of course but Im not sure how much info they would share with non Met officers... or perhaps even with Harry himself....

One statement that I've always applied to governmental intelligence agencies that not only involves people outside of the agency itself but actually is applied to within the agency itself. That statement is that information is shared on a "need to know" basis. The less that people who *don't* need to know, know, the better chances there are of handling a situation or the creation of a panic. ?

Maybe I've been watching too much NCIS lately.

 

[Denville]

well it seems that the 2 sticking points for Harry are that he wants to Hire Met officers and he can't do that... and that he wants to be sure that his guards will have the special knowledge from the intelligence agencies. Now if he has MEt officers guarding him.. they will have that knowledge. But if he has his own security men as well, they will certainly not be given this information

 

[Durham]

They would protect Harry, of course but Im not sure how much info they would share with non Met officers... or perhaps even with Harry himself....

I presume they would share whatever they considered essential. They must be used to dealing with other foreign security details. Security details that may be armed in their own country but obviously not when they're in the UK. Unless they're a head of state or similar presumably. But obviously Harry's not in that sort of category.

Incidentally since he's decided to bring this case the British taxpayer presumably ends up paying for the government lawyers.

 

[Denville]

I presume they would share whatever they considered essential. They must be used to dealing with other foreign security details. Security details that may be armed in their own country but obviously not when they're in the UK. Unless they're a head of state or similar presumably. But obviously Harry's not in that sort of category.

Incidentally since he's decided to bring this case the British taxpayer presumably ends up paying for the government lawyers.

Its one thing to share intelligence with the police who guard a foreign head of state, but private security men hired by Harry.. Im not so sure.

 

[Durham]

Its one thing to share intelligence with the police who guard a foreign head of state, but private security men hired by Harry.. Im not so sure.

Well yes indeed. At the same time the Met must deal with all sorts of non Uk security details. London is awash with foreign vip's, billionaires etc.

 

[Denville]

Well yes indeed. At the same time the Met must deal with all sorts of non Uk security details. London is awash with foreign vip's, billionaires etc.

but dealing with them and liasing is one thing, sharing intellignece with them is another. And that's what Harry wants, if he brings his own securty men

 

[Durham]

but dealing with them and liasing is one thing, sharing intellignece with them is another. And that's what Harry wants, if he brings his own securty men

I know & the Met will make their own decisions of course. As it says they're the experts. But Harry must already know this so I'm not sure why he's bringing this appeal. He must know he won't win. It makes no sense. Just seems like a complete waste of everybody's time.

 

[Sionevar]

I know & the Met will make their own decisions of course. As it says they're the experts. But Harry must already know this so I'm not sure why he's bringing this appeal. He must know he won't win. It makes no sense. Just seems like a complete waste of everybody's time.

An expensive waste of everyone's time, at that. If Harry loses (which he almost certainly will), and the UK government pursues him for legal costs, he could be on the hook for up to half a million pounds.

 

[Osipi]

I know & the Met will make their own decisions of course. As it says they're the experts. But Harry must already know this so I'm not sure why he's bringing this appeal. He must know he won't win. It makes no sense. Just seems like a complete waste of everybody's time.

I'm starting to think that this couple believes the road to whatever they want and are denied are possible by pursuing legal means. Control of the press and control of their security to reflect how they believe it should be.

Life doesn't work that way though. Actions beget reactions and reactions come with consequences. There are no do overs.

 

[Durham]

Well quite.

Churchill once described Eisenhower's Secretary of State John Foster Dulles as "a bull who carries his own china shop around with him".

Who does that remind you of?

 

[CrownPrincessJava]

Its one thing to share intelligence with the police who guard a foreign head of state, but private security men hired by Harry.. Im not so sure.

Exactly. There is no way British Intelligence Agencies would EVER share intelligence with any US or even privately-paid UK security. Why? Because ALL intelligence officiers and specialised police would have been briefed and obtain the necessary security clearances to hold that information. And in the case of US security - no way would they ever be allowed to be privy to British Intelligence unless they have the requisite UK security clearances - which would not be an easy feat.

I am very doubtful that he would not know the process of sharing intelligence information. It sounds like he needs a bit of a reality check....

 

[Moran]

Does anyone else remember the man Meghan was pictured with in Montecito? He was claimed to be her bodyguard... and he was carrying her purchases.

If anyone from British Intelligence Agencies had seen this, I doubt they would be thrilled tp share intelligence with this kind of security detail.

Usually, when I see royals, their security detail is discreetly blended into the environment.

I imagine intelligence agencies work best with those who share their methods of work - which would be other intelligence agencies.

I can't believe the Duke of Sussex is unware that some things are just not done.

 

[CrownPrincessJava]

Does anyone else remember the man Meghan was pictured with in Montecito? He was claimed to be her bodyguard... and he was carrying her purchases.

If anyone from British Intelligence Agencies had seen this, I doubt they would be thrilled tp share intelligence with this kind of security detail.

Usually, when I see royals, their security detail is discreetly blended into the environment.

I imagine intelligence agencies work best with those who share their methods of work - which would be other intelligence agencies.

I can't believe the Duke of Sussex is unware that some things are just not done.

Even the Royals won't be privy to intelligence information if there is no "need-to-know" for them to know. I remember the Queen had invited a Victoria Cross recipient to Buckingham Palace and she started asking him about the operation in which he was awarded the medal. He replied "I'm sorry Ma'am, I cannot discuss it with you" and there was a stink about it. It wasn't until someone from the British Intelligence Services came out and said that the officer did the right thing as the Queen had no "need-to-know" as she wasn't briefed. So yes - the Duke of Sussex would know this principle from his military career.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Does anyone else remember the man Meghan was pictured with in Montecito? He was claimed to be her bodyguard... and he was carrying her purchases.

I remember that and remember the time that Princess Beatrice's car was stolen/damaged or something and people queried why her protection officer didn't ensure she had taken the keys out and the answer was 'his job is to protect the person and not protect them from their own stupidity'.

The same thing was asked about Harry and the Vegas photos - what were his protection detail doing that people were allowed to get that close with cameras - well again 'we aren't here to protect him from his stupidity but only from physical harm'.

No way would an RPO carry the parcels of their protectee as they wouldn't be able to do their job if needed it they had their hands full.

 

[yukari]

Prince Harry attacked for failing to show ‘respect’ in row over refusal of police protection

Archive

(...)

In the case of “Queen on application of Duke of Sussex versus Secretary of State for the Home Office”, he says that he should have police protection “on all occasions” in the UK and that he has even offered to pay for it himself.

(....)

In any event, the court documents note, “personal protective security is not available on a privately financed basis” and Ravec does not make decisions on security on the basis of payment.

(...)

But in his submissions, Mr Palmer told the court that his “form of exceptional status” meant that the Duke is already considered for personal police protection when he returns “with the precise arrangements being dependent on the reason for his presence in Great Britain”.

It suggests that were he attending on official business, rather than in a personal capacity, the Duke would likely receive police protection.

The Home Secretary also warned the Prince that they would seek to recover all cost to the public purse from the case, as they were “considerably in excess” of those typically awarded.

(...)

Ms Fatima had said that she wished to address why their arguments were being made in secret whilst the Home Office made its arguments publicly. However, she was told by the judge that it was a matter for the parties to decide what to release and that she should “move on”.

It was one of a number of heated exchanges between the judge and the QC. At one point, Mr Justice Swift noted: “Court proceedings are not a platform for people generally to tell their story, rather it is the forum for people to resolve legal disputes.”

(...)

One thing that makes me wonder; H's legal teams should be aware of how ridiculous and little chance they have to win this, yet why still proceed? Was this a case when Harry being hotheaded, dismissed their advices, and ordered them to proceed despite what they said? Or it's his legal team just being "let's take money from him as much as we can"?

Was this his paranoia at play? Or a publicity with the court as his stage to "tell his story" and to "tug heartstring" looking for sympathy? Finding excuse as to not bring his family to the UK for the jubilee? Or he just simply is stupid and entitled?

 

[Osipi]

One thing that makes me wonder; H's legal teams should be aware of how ridiculous and little chance they have to win this, yet why still proceed? Was this a case when Harry being hotheaded, dismissed their advices, and ordered them to proceed despite what they said? Or it's his legal team just being "let's take money from him as much as we can"?

Was this his paranoia at play? Or a publicity with the court as his stage to "tell his story" and to "tug heartstring" looking for sympathy? Finding excuse as to not bring his family to the UK for the jubilee? Or he just simply is stupid and entitled?

It's hard to determine just what was going through Harry's mind with this lawsuit and could be any or all of what you've suggested but one thing I know it was *not* and that is that Harry had a real, legitimate case to present in front of a judge.

The team of attorneys that Harry has on retainer though must have some very healthy bank accounts these days. They'll find something new to take on. My guess? A bird sanctuary!

 

[Heavs]

So he is already being offered security if/when the occasion warrants it or if there is knowledge of a threat. Without having to pay. That's a very different picture than the one he and Meghan have tried to paint since they lost the protection in March 2020.

The Home Office alleges he never offered to pay for the security in any of their private discussions until it one of his people decided it was better PR when launching this suit, but as we have discussed PPOs aren't for sale and neither is UK intelligence for the obvious reason that any Russian Oligarch for example would be able to do the same. There are any number of people living in London who have far greater demonstrable threats to them than most of the BRF.

Beatrice and Eugenie were in the same position in the LOS as he currently is when they were stripped of RPOs.

They're basically alleging he had a tantrum at Priti Patel and the RAVEC committee.

He's going to get it when needed, he can stay in places already under protection and yet he's claiming he needs it at all times in the UK so that men with guns can.....shoot paparazzi? Many charity events he goes to that involve him or celebrities will also have private security as well as his own personal non gun carrying security.

No one wants to be the one who denied Harry security and then he got hurt so I believe everyone involved is taking potential threats seriously. I get that Harry's probably legitimately freaked out about his safety at all times but the Home Office doesn't need to indulge his paranoia when they've made it clear security will be provided as/when needed.

The UK is a relatively safe place from gun violence and it doesn't tend to be directed at wealthy people. Anyone who wanted to hurt him with a gun could fly to the US and buy one but that doesn't seem to be one of his arguments.

Was this his paranoia at play? Or a publicity with the court as his stage to "tell his story" and to "tug heartstring" looking for sympathy? Finding excuse as to not bring his family to the UK for the jubilee? Or he just simply is stupid and entitled?

I suspect fictitious paparazzi "chases" are to tug at heart strings for obvious reasons. But I do think he may be also legitimately extremely paranoid about it, which I do understand, I would be in his position but that doesn't mean he's right. Maybe he/his solicitors hoped to ride a wave of public sympathy into getting the Home Office to agree.

Saying he can't do his charity work unless surrounded by RPOs with guns and intelligence is simply not true, especially if he leaves from Clarence House (where there's RPOs) and returns there in a couple of hours.

I do believe this is an attempt to also get full time security paid for by whichever taxpayers in the US as well. It must be a large drain on their budget and if they can get a court to agree he needs it....But that is personal speculation.

 

[MsJulie]

I bet Harry know something none of us know that is why he is speaking out. Harry might not be always be right but he is not always wrong either. There are many double standards that go on. I know many will,not agree with me that’s okay we all have our own opinions. I am siding with Harry from what I know.