The Duke & Duchess of Sussex and Family, News and Events 5: June-July 2021

[UglyAmerican]

Perhaps he spent his quarantine time doing a bit of online shopping.

Poor guy's probably still trying to figure out American shoe sizes! ? No wonder it was the first thing he did when he got back to the UK!

 

[Erin9]

Poor guy's probably still trying to figure out American shoe sizes! ? No wonder it was the first thing he did when he got back to the UK!

Lol And here I was thinking about how he might like driving on the side of the road he’s used to. Hadn’t thought about the shoes….

 

[Ghost]

Meghan’s uncle Michael, the one who got her the internship at the American Embassy in Argentina, has died aged 82.

Meghan Markle's 'proud' ex-diplomat uncle Mike dies aged 82

Michael Markle - who was known as Mike and is the brother of Meghan's father Thomas - had been battling Parkinson's disease and had suffered falls in recent years, sources told The Sun.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[SLV]

My condolences to the Duchess.

 

[Excalibur]

In the US, birth certificates are filled out by hospital staff. Parents are asked for the father's ID, as the mother's is on her hospital records. The most likely scenario on filling out the birth certificate is that Harry presented his ID, his UK passport, where his name is listed as "His Royal Highness Prince Harry, Duke of Sussex". Unless the clerk were well-versed in royal or aristocratic titles, he would have assumed that Harry's listed name followed the American convention of listing names as "last name, first name" since it included a comma. Hence he would have filled it out as:
First Name: Duke of Sussex
Last Name: His Royal Highness (the rest of the name probably wouldn't fit)
Since we don't have titles in America, there is no reason to believe that a man's current name would be different from his birth name.

 

[HighGoalHighDreams]

Excalibur, thank you for the further information on the process of filling out birth certificates in California.

Respectfully, though, I think we can rule out the notion that someone mistakenly filled in Harry's name the way it appears. I would disagree that a person would need to be well-versed in titles to understand Harry's name on a UK passport. Understand the nuances, sure, but anyone at all would be able to look at a UK passport with the word Prince and understand that they were not looking at a private individual's given name. I doubt whoever was working with the couple was the rushed assistant with ten other new families to care for. They will have known who they were working with and, if they had questions, will have asked, not just assumed it was Harry's name and thought "that'll do."

I think we can be doubly sure of this because, if we are to take the Sussexes word for it (do so at your peril!), Meghan has gone through the experience of having herself "erased" from her first child's birth certificate. Surely anyone who went through the headache- and, we can assume, the upset- of having her child's birth certificate "corrected" and her identity "erased" would make very sure, once they were no longer under the power of those authorities, that the birth certificate said what they want, how they want it.

 

[Alison H]

Poor guy's probably still trying to figure out American shoe sizes! ? No wonder it was the first thing he did when he got back to the UK!

I love shopping in America. You immediately drop a dress size! A UK size 14 is a US size 12, and so on!

 

[Excalibur]

...
Understand the nuances, sure, but anyone at all would be able to look at a UK passport with the word Prince and understand that they were not looking at a private individual's given name.
...

You do realize we are talking about California here? Where names like North, Apple, Moon Unit, and, yes, even Prince (as in Jackson) are not at all unusual?

 

[UglyAmerican]

It's definitely true that we don't have titles here and American forms aren't set up to deal with them. It's also true that most Americans who were handed a passport saying "His Royal Highness Prince Henry, Duke of Sussex" would be unsure how exactly to fill out a form that asked for first, middle, and last names. But I think the average American would know that "His Royal Highness" is not a proper name, and certainly not a last name. At the very least, I'd expect the name "Henry" to appear in there somewhere if an American clerical worker was handed his UK passport and told to take their best guess.

He surely has some kind of American ID by now, and I doubt it says "First name: Duke of Sussex; Last name: His Royal Highness."

EDIT: Upon further reflection, California DMVs are notoriously awful, so maybe they did issue him a driver's license with that name on it. Still, you'd think he'd have gotten it sorted out by now.

 

[vulture]

And Jermajesty! (That’s an example of a California name!) Not that there is anything wrong with that! But they can be unusual!

 

[HighGoalHighDreams]

You do realize we are talking about California here? Where names like North, Apple, Moon Unit, and, yes, even Prince (as in Jackson) are not at all unusual?

Oh, absolutely. That's why I included the rest of my post: most importantly, that it is a UK passport (it doesn't take an expert in titles to understand that in the UK, Prince is a title and not a name), and that everyone of course knew who the patients were. I don't believe that the person who filled out the birth certificate is kicking herself saying, "Oh, I think that nice red-headed English chap was named Prince."

I think we are kidding ourselves that, again particularly given that the Sussexes were evidently quite upset about what was done to their first child's birth certificate, somehow this one was filled out with information they did not approve or they consider incorrect because they handed over Harry's passport to someone who did not know how to translate the information to the form.

 

[Prinsara]

Also kidding ourselves that H&M didn't check the form before it was issued?

 

[Erin9]

The Duke & Duchess of Sussex and Family, News and Events 5: June 2021-

Oh, absolutely. That's why I included the rest of my post: most importantly, that it is a UK passport (it doesn't take an expert in titles to understand that in the UK, Prince is a title and not a name), and that everyone of course knew who the patients were. I don't believe that the person who filled out the birth certificate is kicking herself saying, "Oh, I think that nice red-headed English chap was named Prince."



I think we are kidding ourselves that, again particularly given that the Sussexes were evidently quite upset about what was done to their first child's birth certificate, somehow this one was filled out with information they did not approve or they consider incorrect because they handed over Harry's passport to someone who did not know how to translate the information to the form.

Mostly Agreed. I’m pretty sure Lili’s birth certificate is how they want it. Given who Harry and Meghan are- I’m sure the staff didn’t just slap names on the birth certificate. And I’m sure the Sussexes looked at it.

Though IMO I think the final version of Archie’s birth certificate is likely how they wanted it. Version 1- matched how Catherine filled out her kids. Version 2: matches how Diana filled out the boys birth certificates. (I’m not saying that’s necessarily why they changed it though.)

Mostly I just think it’s pretty likely both certificates reflect the wishes of the parents.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

[...] their children were expected to be made HRHs when Charles became King because there was a distinct possibility that, at least for a few years, those children might be taking on some work alongside the Cambridge children until George's own children reached adulthood. Let's not forget that Charles was in his mid to late 30s before his children were born and both William and Harry were in their 30s as well when they had children. This means there very much could have been a stretch of time when the children of both William and Harry were carrying the brunt of the royal engagements as William, Catherine, Harry, and his future wife aged.

I think that is unlikely to have been the plan in light of the decision made earlier to exclude the York daughters, together with the Sussex children's younger ages than the Cambridge children, making them unavailable to fill the gap (if any) between generations.

It's funny how racism is claimed because of all of this but the changes to stop discriminating because of gender gets shoved under the carpet and racism becomes the sole focus of why Archie isn't a prince nor will he possibly be a prince in the future. I see Meghan using "selective rationalization" here. Perhaps she honestly believes that because she is biracial, Archie and Lili will be discriminated against but looking at how things *really* work shows differently.

Also criticising one thing doesn't mean you can't be opposed to other things. "Racism becomes the sole focus of why Archie isn't a prince", well yes, because bringing up sexism in this specific case wouldn't make sense as he wouldn't be impacted by it.

It's likely that Osipi was referencing the fact that Archie is impacted by sexism because the expectation that he will become a prince is a factor of his father's male gender (and his status as heir to a dukedom is a factor of his own male gender).

If the genders of Archie's parents had been reversed, their children would never be entitled to any title under the 1917 Letters Patent.

Because of the unequal treatment of Archie compared to his cousins.

They are dealing with the here and now; not with the hypothetical if William had 5 siblings...It doesn't matter if they understood "legitimate reasons" behind it. They didn't like it and that is one reason they left.

He's not being treated unequally to Prince Edward's children. As the monarch's grandchildren, they are currently entitled to use HRH and prince/princess, but they do not use it. Archie is not a grandchild of a monarch and is not entitled to those titles.

Not sure how this relates to my post. You are going up a generation by talking about Edward's children.

kalnel's post relates to yours as the Sussex children's position as children of a younger son of the next monarch is identical to the Wessex children's position as children of a younger son of the reigning monarch, but for being up a generation (in hereditary dynasties, including the house of Windsor, the upper generation tends to be senior, e.g., Queen Elizabeth is senior to Prince Charles).

The Wessex children, along with Peter Phillips and Zara Tindall, and even HRH Princess Beatrice, Mrs. Edoardo Mapelli Mozzi and HRH Princess Eugenie, Mrs. Jack Brooksbank, are titled unequally to HRH The Duke of Cambridge and HRH The Duke of Sussex, and that is not a hypothetical.

I don't know how anything plays into the decision with Archie and Lili because years ago I wasn't hearing anything about Harry's future kids not being HRH/prince/princess despite the slimmed down monarchy talk. So of course the question will be asked in "what changed?" "Why is it starting with them?" It is human nature.

I thought it was pretty obvious what was coming when Beatrice and Eugenie didn’t become working royals. They used HRH at birth, but by the time they got older, did not become part of the firm. They are grandchildren of the current monarch. Change 1.

And Louise and James have never even used the HRH they are entitled to. They were born much later than the girls. Also grandchildren of the current monarch. Change 2.

The only grandchildren of the monarch who seemed earmarked to work for the firm were William and Harry- the sons of the heir.

The Queen obviously hasn’t wanted to issue Letters Patent on the subject, but the writing has been on the wall.

I don’t really see anything “starting” with Archie and Lili IF Charles issues LP. Only putting on paper and formalizing what’s seemed pretty obvious for many years.

At this point, Harry’s children using HRH and being working royals would actually go against what we’ve been seeing.

Further adding to Erin9's reply to ACO, I was able to find discussion about the possibility of Harry's children not using HRH dating back to 2005 in the archives of this forum:

https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...ay-2004-october-2005-a-2440-8.html#post265332
https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...ober-2005-march-2007-a-7511-2.html#post319873

 

[camelot23ca]

It's likely that Osipi was referencing the fact that Archie is impacted by sexism because the expectation that he will become a prince is a factor of his father's male gender (and his status as heir to a dukedom is a factor of his own male gender).

If the genders of Archie's parents had been reversed, their children would never be entitled to any title under the 1917 Letters Patent..

It’s interesting that Harry and Meghan are upset by racism (real or imagined) surrounding the BRF but are eager to continue to use titles that are part of a system of explicit, state sanctioned gender discrimination. Especially since the inheritance of titles is often tied to very unequal distribution of property and wealth, always to the detriment of women. If the Sussexes consider discrimination to be wrong under any circumstances then why are they not talking about this? There’s no guesswork, no need to be coy about conversations that may or may not have happened - the gender discrimination is explicit and blatant. If Harry and Meghan want to put their money where their mouths are they should stop using the HRH and the ducal titles, or at least make it clear that they want their children to be treated exactly the same as Beatrice and Eugenie’s children, which means they stay Archie and Lili Mountbatten-Windsor for the rest of their lives.

 

[Leopoldine]

OK. Who went to the press with news of the brothers sharing thoughts about England football?

 

[UglyAmerican]

My money's on Harry or Meghan, mainly because I don't see what William would have to gain by it. If (big if) William was angry enough to authorize his friends to talk to the media just last week, I don't think England beating Germany will have changed anything. And even if his feelings had changed, why would he want it in the newspapers? I suspect this is more of the same "We Zoom with the Queen all the time!" misrepresentations and exaggerations. Probably Harry had some sort of text interaction that he mentioned to Meghan, who either misunderstood or intentionally embellished it, and thought the entire world needed to know all about it. That's the usual pattern here.

Actually, this might have been William giving Harry another chance after the Gayle King incident, by talking to him about something innocuous and then seeing if it ended up in the papers. If it hadn't, maybe they'd have progressed to talking about more substantive things. But it did, so now he knows he still can't speak freely with Harry.

 

[Queen Ester]

OK. Who went to the press with news of the brothers sharing thoughts about England football?

I missed this bit, where was this posted, thank you

 

[UglyAmerican]

I don't think anyone posted it, but here's a story about it:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/roya...ll-right-direction-diana-statue-unveiling-ont

 

[Denville]

Or possibly the press thought that if they manage to chat in a pleasant way, which Im sure they tried to do, the football was a likley subject....

 

[Alison H]

Football and the weather are the two standard topics of small talk . But I really can't see William authorising a "source" to tell the press that he sent Harry a text saying "Great goal" or "Wa-hey, football's coming home" or whatever it was.

 

[Denville]

Football and the weather are the two standard topics of small talk . But I really can't see William authorising a "source" to tell the press that he sent Harry a text saying "Great goal" or "Wa-hey, football's coming home" or whatever it was.

no but they can make stuff up. its very possible that they were overheard chatting about football, and if not, it is the main subject of conversation in the UK....

 

[Kataryn]

IMHO we should remember how much both William and Harry hate it when they are quoted directly in the media and that normally this means it's time again for a great cleanse of friends/servants. I believe the media just now thinks they can get away with it because Will and Harry are at odds, so might think it was one of the other's "court" but I think they know better than to fall into such obvious traps.

 

[Queen Ester]

I don't think anyone posted it, but here's a story about it:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/roya...ll-right-direction-diana-statue-unveiling-ont

Thank you, I'll read it, but I think it might fake new

 

[Heavs]

It's always a good idea to take anything with a pinch of salt and evaluate the source.

If it comes from Scobie/Jack Royston etc then you can be sure it's what the Sussexes *want* in the media, whether or not it's true. If it comes from one of the RR then there's a high probability that they do have a source or two, although the story itself may still be complete BS.

If it's something serious like the bullying allegations then Valentine Low mentioned that the Times solicitors go over it with a fine tooth comb before publishing.

If it's a nothing story about the brothers talking about the match then it could be true and come from one of them or an aid or could be along the lines of those magazines that insist Kate is pregnant with twins every week.

 

[muriel]

So how likely is it that Harry met with the Queen on this trip? The only window seems to have been on either side of the Windsor Horse Show, if Harry did indeed leave for LA last night.

 

[Denville]

So how likely is it that Harry met with the Queen on this trip? The only window seems to have been on either side of the Windsor Horse Show, if Harry did indeed leave for LA last night.

Might have had a talk through the window iwht her in Frogmore..

 

[muriel]

Might have had a talk through the window iwht her in Frogmore..

Why bother? Why not just Zoom / Facetime?

 

[ACO]

Archewell Audio news.

https://variety.com/2021/digital/ne...ananes-prince-harry-meghan-markle-1235010606/

 

[Curryong]

Rebecca Sananes is an experienced hand, and glad to hear she’s on board to assist. I’m looking forward to hearing about forthcoming work.