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  #701  
Old 04-16-2021, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Erin9 View Post
Exhibit A: Philip. I think it is generally agreed upon that he had those qualities. But- he figured out how to do it within the system. Of course- being born royal and having been exposed to how things worked his whole life, he certainly had an understanding of the system in general. He also understood it to be a commitment for life. Getting frustrated and walking out wasn’t an option.
That's actually a really, really good point. It's often been said that Philip was the Prince Albert of his day...he really fought hard for things like environmental issues long before it was "popular" thing to do, was all for modernization and efficiency, etc. I think we could quite confidently call him progressive, at least for his time. I think he instinctively understood, though, that your ability to make changes, especially to an institution like that of the BRF, comes with time and with proving yourself to be loyal, devoted, and with the best interests of the RF at heart. Meghan could have absolutely been a positive and forward-moving force if she had learned these lessons and applied them. You don't get to shake up the system and change everything that's been in place for years, decades, or even centuries just because you think you're somehow important enough to override everyone in positions of higher authority. That's just simply not how life works.
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  #702  
Old 04-16-2021, 01:58 PM
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That's actually a really, really good point. It's often been said that Philip was the Prince Albert of his day...he really fought hard for things like environmental issues long before it was "popular" thing to do, was all for modernization and efficiency, etc. I think we could quite confidently call him progressive, at least for his time. I think he instinctively understood, though, that your ability to make changes, especially to an institution like that of the BRF, comes with time and with proving yourself to be loyal, devoted, and with the best interests of the RF at heart. Meghan could have absolutely been a positive and forward-moving force if she had learned these lessons and applied them. You don't get to shake up the system and change everything that's been in place for years, decades, or even centuries just because you think you're somehow important enough to override everyone in positions of higher authority. That's just simply not how life works.

It's not as if Philip was trying to make changes to the Monarchy, quite the contrary. What he learned to do was make his own life in a way, find a way to have a real impact.......but inside the Institution. I don't believe Meghan ever intended to do that as I don't think she actually respected the Monarchy (which Philip certainly did). I think she looked at the whole shebang as an unfortunate throwback - to put it kindly.
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  #703  
Old 04-16-2021, 02:12 PM
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It's not as if Philip was trying to make changes to the Monarchy, quite the contrary. What he learned to do was make his own life in a way, find a way to have a real impact.......but inside the Institution. I don't believe Meghan ever intended to do that as I don't think she actually respected the Monarchy (which Philip certainly did). I think she looked at the whole shebang as an unfortunate throwback - to put it kindly.
I don't know that I entirely agree that he wasn't trying to change the monarchy. I certainly agree that he wasn't trying to upend it or change everything about it but I think he definitely made his mark. Sometimes it was in small things like the story of him putting a stop to the whiskey that appeared in the Queen's room every night for ages simply because Queen Victoria had it done that way and no one had ever stopped it. Sometimes it was bigger things like the change to the surname of the descendants. I didn't mean to imply that he was trying to make sweeping and widespread changes to the whole of the institution but rather than he saw areas he wanted to change or improve or make different for the changing times and he learned how to make that happen. He didn't do it by stamping his feet and making sweeping announcements to the world that he intended to modernize the monarchy, he simply realized where he was in the hierarchy and by keeping an even keel was able to make many of the changes he wanted to over time.
  #704  
Old 04-16-2021, 02:16 PM
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I think that the details dont matter so much. What matters is that Meghan clearly didn't see her coming into the RF as her taking on a role where she intended to learn the job and commit to it.. and I think that from early on, she and Harry were saying that they were unhappy, and the queen and Charles were trying to find some way of accommodating them.
Well said! This is the point for me. The nail polish and tights are trivial. But they are just examples of her not being willing to play by their rules - at least in the beginning. Meghan also comments in the interview that she was told “you can’t do this or that.” That is not a direct quote, but that is what she essentially said.

Remember the photographer who took photos of Kate topless with a long range lens? She came back from that with grace and class. I cannot imagine the humiliation and violation she must have felt. That incident was a whole lot more than “rude.”
  #705  
Old 04-16-2021, 02:24 PM
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I'm going by memory and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong here but back in the 90s, it was Philip that thought up and chaired the now defunct "Way Ahead" group. It was formed as a think tank to handle the different crises that besieged the BRF part of which the Queen referred to as her "Annus Horribilis".

Philip understood that the way to change things was to get everyone on board with the changes and, together, figure out a way to implement them. Steamrolling or flatly refusing to do something the "old" way rarely works.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/royal...or-castle-fire
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  #706  
Old 04-16-2021, 02:28 PM
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I think what it essentially came down to, at least in my view, is that she made a conscious choice to break the rules or flaunt the protocol or however one might choose to phrase it. Now, sometimes there's a really good reason to break the rules. Sometimes any reasonable person could look at a broken rule and think that it was done absolutely as it should have been, i.e. someone is very careful in their wording to be sure than an insurance approval for a life-changing medication goes through. Was it strictly within the rules and guideline? No. Was it the right thing to do? Yes. Or HM gave in to public opinion and lowered the flag when Diana was killed. Was it protocol to do so? No. Was it the right thing for the time? I'd argue that it was. Then again, sometimes people choose to break the rules, flaunt protocols, defy tradition, etc. for no good reason other than to say they did so. And that's exactly the way I see this. There weren't good reasons for any of the things that Meghan chose to do differently than she was expected to. It simply boiled down to the fact that she wanted to be different, she wanted to be seen to be a rule-breaker, she wanted to be seen as a "modernizer," and she simply didn't want to be told what to do. In my view none of those are good reasons to insult your husband's family, your adopted country, or an institution that was there long before you and will be there long after you. A little humility, appreciation for what she was entering into, and frankly respect for those in positions higher than hers would have gone a long way, methinks.
  #707  
Old 04-16-2021, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by _Heather_ View Post
and frankly respect for those in positions higher than hers would have gone a long way, methinks.
See, here is the problem for Meghan... She simply doesn't, I don't think, believe that there is any validity in giving people respect for higher positions they were born into rather than earned through hard work and/or talent and skill. She is an American, through and through, in that regard.
  #708  
Old 04-16-2021, 02:41 PM
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I haven't seen any posts expressing "outrage" on behalf of the Queen. None of us know whether the Queen cares about such things or not, but I expect that staff, like Samantha Cohen knew what the Queen cared about and advised Meghan accordingly. For all we know she was told the Queen was fine with the color of her nail polish. I doubt it because if these stories are inaccurate, Meghan hasn't set them straight.

I understand why some people don't think those things are important but if if nail polish and tights are not that important, why not go along? We can't have it both ways, wearing light nail polish is not that important but it's essential that Meghan wear dark nail polish.

Meghan repeatedly violated what many people consider normal royal family protocol and believe is important. They have every right to feel that way, as Meghan has to feel the opposite.

There are many cultural differences in the world. I have travelled extensively and when I am in another country I try to conform to the customs of my hosts. I know many would not care if I dress a certain way, but most appreciate when I demonstrate that I respect their norms and their culture.
  #709  
Old 04-16-2021, 02:42 PM
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See, here is the problem for Meghan... She simply doesn't, I don't think, believe that there is any validity in giving people respect for higher positions they were born into rather than earned through hard work and/or talent and skill. She is an American, through and through, in that regard.
I understand what you're saying and I don't disagree. But I can say with absolute certainty that not all Americans act this way. Meghan is only a year and a half older than me so we're certainly of an age and definitely part of the same generation. If I behaved like that, my grandparents would have my head. Some of us were raised with a healthy respect for our elders, people in positions of authority, and the rules that go along with joining historic institutions or being present in places that require some modesty, decorum, and impeccable manners and we were taught that humility and not always putting ourselves first is important and that it isn't always necessary to "have our say" or "make our voices heard." In fact, I think I recall my grandma telling us one time that "the mark of maturity is realizing that not everything needs your comment, your input, or your opinion."
  #710  
Old 04-16-2021, 02:46 PM
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I don't know that I entirely agree that he wasn't trying to change the monarchy. I certainly agree that he wasn't trying to upend it or change everything about it but I think he definitely made his mark. Sometimes it was in small things like the story of him putting a stop to the whiskey that appeared in the Queen's room every night for ages simply because Queen Victoria had it done that way and no one had ever stopped it. Sometimes it was bigger things like the change to the surname of the descendants. I didn't mean to imply that he was trying to make sweeping and widespread changes to the whole of the institution but rather than he saw areas he wanted to change or improve or make different for the changing times and he learned how to make that happen. He didn't do it by stamping his feet and making sweeping announcements to the world that he intended to modernize the monarchy, he simply realized where he was in the hierarchy and by keeping an even keel was able to make many of the changes he wanted to over time.
Yeah, smallish changes - which I guess I didn't really count as changes. I agree with you.

LOL that reminds me of a story I heard from Gyles Brandreth on Palace Confidential. Philip told him that he never liked interviews because it was always "just one more" - they (or even photographers") would just keep asking for more. That's why HM doesn't give interviews. He then told the story of having lunch with HM's private secretary, and the secretary mentioned that they never would mention anymore what the Queen liked to have for lunch because once they made the mistake of saying she liked Victoria Sponge in 1952, and from then on, at EVERY function, Victoria Sponge was served, lol.

I LOVE Victoria Sponge, but.........touche!

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Heather_ View Post
I understand what you're saying and I don't disagree. But I can say with absolute certainty that not all Americans act this way. Meghan is only a year and a half older than me so we're certainly of an age and definitely part of the same generation. If I behaved like that, my grandparents would have my head. Some of us were raised with a healthy respect for our elders, people in positions of authority, and the rules that go along with joining historic institutions or being present in places that require some modesty, decorum, and impeccable manners and we were taught that humility and not always putting ourselves first is important and that it isn't always necessary to "have our say" or "make our voices heard." In fact, I think I recall my grandma telling us one time that "the mark of maturity is realizing that not everything needs your comment, your input, or your opinion."
Yes. Plus, people can't help where they are born - William, say, or Charles, didn't ask to be born into the BRF. To show a deliberate lack of decorum simply because you don't like what they "stand for" is bad form. It's rude. Treat people the way you would want to be treated.
  #711  
Old 04-16-2021, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by _Heather_ View Post
I do believe I read somewhere that it's accepted practice that when accompanying HM on an engagement you take your style cues from her and if she wears a hat, you wear a hat. If she dresses a bit more casually (as she used to do more frequently several years ago), you dress a bit more casually, etc. so I think Meghan choosing not to wear a hat on that away day shortly after her wedding was rightly seen as a breach. It was said at the time that HM's aides or ladies in waiting had let Meghan know what HM would be wearing and apparently someone or several someone's tried to impress upon her that that meant she needed a hat, too, and she repeatedly rebuffed them. Honestly, to me, that seems like a much bigger and more distasteful eschewing of protocols than the silly nail polish thing.
Really? Well in that case, Camilla and Kate committed the same offense. When Kate, Camilla and the queen visited Fortnum and Mason during the diamond jubilee celebration, the queen wore a hat and Camilla and Kate did not. Just google it.
At the Centenary meeting of the National Federation of Women's Institute in 2015, which was an outing with the queen, Anne and sophie, both Anne and Sophie did not wear a hat while the queen did (and many other members of the public too in that special occasion)

So once again, people seemed to invent rules for Meghan that have never bothered them for other royals.
Meghan wore a hat for garden parties, for church, for Ascott, if she had been required to wear a hat to do a visit with the queen, she would have done so.
...
  #712  
Old 04-16-2021, 03:01 PM
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The Duke & Duchess of Sussex & Family - General News April 2021 -

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Heather_ View Post
I don't know that I entirely agree that he wasn't trying to change the monarchy. I certainly agree that he wasn't trying to upend it or change everything about it but I think he definitely made his mark. Sometimes it was in small things like the story of him putting a stop to the whiskey that appeared in the Queen's room every night for ages simply because Queen Victoria had it done that way and no one had ever stopped it. Sometimes it was bigger things like the change to the surname of the descendants. I didn't mean to imply that he was trying to make sweeping and widespread changes to the whole of the institution but rather than he saw areas he wanted to change or improve or make different for the changing times and he learned how to make that happen. He didn't do it by stamping his feet and making sweeping announcements to the world that he intended to modernize the monarchy, he simply realized where he was in the hierarchy and by keeping an even keel was able to make many of the changes he wanted to over time.


I think this is a good sum up of Philip’s approach. He definitely made his mark. He’s been credited with helping pull it out of the 19th century and into the 20th. He certainly wanted to- and did- make things more efficient. He helped push it forward.

Importantly - he respected the institution of the monarchy and the people in it. He also understood his role in it.

I read some articles this week about how the monarchy needs another Philip type person and some lamentation that Harry and Meghan hadn’t worked out. (Blame mostly seemed to fall to the family, not them- so it was probably American). It was a fair point. Someone needs, at times, as is appropriate, to help drive things forward.

But- that person has to be able to work within the system, exercise some patience, pick their battles, and respect the institution.

I just had flashbacks to the website with Meghan/Harry announcing to the world how they were going carve out a new progressive role in the monarchy and work with the Queen. They just forgot to remember to have this little plan agreed upon before launching.
  #713  
Old 04-16-2021, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by MJudith View Post
Really? Well in that case, Camilla and Kate committed the same offense. When Kate, Camilla and the queen visited Fortnum and Mason during the diamond jubilee celebration, the queen wore a hat and Camilla and Kate did not. Just google it.
At the Centenary meeting of the National Federation of Women's Institute in 2015, which was an outing with the queen, Anne and sophie, both Anne and Sophie did not wear a hat while the queen did (and many other members of the public too in that special occasion)

So once again, people seemed to invent rules for Meghan that have never bothered them for other royals.
Meghan wore a hat for garden parties, for church, for Ascott, if she had been required to wear a hat to do a visit with the queen, she would have done so.
Interesting. Thanks for reminding me of these engagements. Of course, the engagements with Camilla, Catherine, Anne and Sophie were indoors and the Cheshire Bridge engagement was outdoors. I believe the protocol is different.
  #714  
Old 04-16-2021, 04:10 PM
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I think this is a good sum up of Philip’s approach. He definitely made his mark. He’s been credited with helping pull it out of the 19th century and into the 20th. He certainly wanted to- and did- make things more efficient. He helped push it forward.

Importantly - he respected the institution of the monarchy and the people in it. He also understood his role in it.

I read some articles this week about how the monarchy needs another Philip type person and some lamentation that Harry and Meghan hadn’t worked out. (Blame mostly seemed to fall to the family, not them- so it was probably American). It was a fair point. Someone needs, at times, as is appropriate, to help drive things forward.

But- that person has to be able to work within the system, exercise some patience, pick their battles, and respect the institution.

I just had flashbacks to the website with Meghan/Harry announcing to the world how they were going carve out a new progressive role in the monarchy and work with the Queen. They just forgot to remember to have this little plan agreed upon before launching.
One of the things to remember is that Philip was the Monarch's husband and a) had a less defined role than royal wives anyway so more chance to expand it and change it and B) was in a better position to affect change as opposed to being the 6th in line and his wife.

Not that they couldn't have changed the way things were done for the "spare" - perhaps if it had worked out Charlotte or Louis could have looked forward to a life of being the Commonwealth person or doing more overseas tours for example.

And second they barely gave it a chance. Philip helped change things over a number of years (decades) and we now see the cumulative effect of them. The Sussexes left after less than 18 months with some of that being holiday and maternity leave, so they didn't have any chance to plant seeds and see them flower in a few years. William has apparently taken the long term approach.

The Sussexes in their own words felt like they were barely surviving not flourishing, that everything was against them and so decided to leave with a wish to be "HIHO" probably for the fun, high profile stuff. In their own words (two years comment) they had possibly been thinking about leaving if it didn't work out since before they were married.

With the protocol issue to be fair I think there were photos often showing other royal ladies "breaking protocol" in the same way Meghan had at various times. I don't think any individual one mattered but all together it created a picture of someone who didn't seem interested in following the rules even when here were pens poised to write "American celebrity doesn't understand British royal family" articles. Which in Meghan's own words turned out to be true.

I think it's also a little disingenuous of someone to complain about not having official Princess Lessons but then not being willing to listen to advice if she didn't feel it was "supportive".
  #715  
Old 04-16-2021, 04:31 PM
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Interesting. Thanks for reminding me of these engagements. Of course, the engagements with Camilla, Catherine, Anne and Sophie were indoors and the Cheshire Bridge engagement was outdoors. I believe the protocol is different.
I believe that most 'protocol' violations are invented by the media. I don't believe for a second that there's a protocol saying you must wear a hat when accompanying the Queen outdoors but not indoors, despite the Queen wearing a hat for both. There's definitely no protocol for nail varnish or tights.
  #716  
Old 04-16-2021, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by MJudith View Post
Really? Well in that case, Camilla and Kate committed the same offense. When Kate, Camilla and the queen visited Fortnum and Mason during the diamond jubilee celebration, the queen wore a hat and Camilla and Kate did not. Just google it.
At the Centenary meeting of the National Federation of Women's Institute in 2015, which was an outing with the queen, Anne and sophie, both Anne and Sophie did not wear a hat while the queen did (and many other members of the public too in that special occasion)

So once again, people seemed to invent rules for Meghan that have never bothered them for other royals.
Meghan wore a hat for garden parties, for church, for Ascott, if she had been required to wear a hat to do a visit with the queen, she would have done so.
I'm certainly no expert on this but I believe that the issue was that they were visiting the victims of the Grenfell disaster and the Queen made a special point to wear green. Evidently she had anticipated that by sharing that information it would be made clear to Meghan that she was supposed to wear something similar, i.e. green hat/coat, etc. and when that wasn't done it caused quite a lot of raised eyebrows. In essence, it wasn't particularly just the lack of the hat, it was the event itself and what HM expected for that event. At least that was my takeaway from it all.
  #717  
Old 04-16-2021, 04:42 PM
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I was a real Meghan fan at first, but now my opinion has absolutely changed. I wonder how she feels -- someone who obviously craves the spotlight --- to be so side-lined this week and overshadowed by other members of the Royal family who are sharing their most personal photographs and memories about their grandfather.

JMHO
  #718  
Old 04-16-2021, 04:59 PM
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I doubt she feels much of anything on that regard since people still making a lot of this about her. The focus should be on Philip and HMQ. Meghan was fairly new in his life. I don’t blame her for not sharing anything because, let’s be real, she would be attacked for it. She being attacked for not even attending...
  #719  
Old 04-16-2021, 05:21 PM
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I'm certainly no expert on this but I believe that the issue was that they were visiting the victims of the Grenfell disaster and the Queen made a special point to wear green. Evidently she had anticipated that by sharing that information it would be made clear to Meghan that she was supposed to wear something similar, i.e. green hat/coat, etc. and when that wasn't done it caused quite a lot of raised eyebrows. In essence, it wasn't particularly just the lack of the hat, it was the event itself and what HM expected for that event. At least that was my takeaway from it all.
Most everyone had a green accent, except for Meghan, scroll down for video

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news...ctims-14784706
  #720  
Old 04-16-2021, 05:23 PM
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I doubt she feels much of anything on that regard since people still making a lot of this about her. The focus should be on Philip and HMQ. Meghan was fairly new in his life. I don’t blame her for not sharing anything because, let’s be real, she would be attacked for it. She being attacked for not even attending...


Stupid people attacking her for not attending. I woman as pregnant as she is so should traveling overseas ... especially in a pandemic. But, I do feel as if her sideshow has been sidelined and overshadowed this week.

I hope she has the opportunity to create many warm memories with Oprah.

JMHO
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